Episode 56: David Petrovay - Out of Work, Not Out of Worth

0:07 Hello, beautiful humans. Welcome to the human Beauty movement podcast. I'm your host Jennifer Norman. Throughout my life, I've been a lover and a seeker of all things beauty from art and dance to cosmetics, and fashion to music and nature. But through my own personal Journey. I've come to discover what I believe is the most beautiful thing. In the universe, the beauty of the human soul, on this podcast, I sit down with beautiful humans from all corners of Of the globe and all walks of life to learn how they are living their own unique. Soul Beauty out loud. You'll hear from game changers. Rebels with gray causes stages odds, feeders and Valiant Warriors who fall down seven times and get up eight. This is the podcast where abundant energy flows and supreme wisdom is bestowed, get ready to enjoy the inspiration. Hello, beautiful humans.

1:04 Today we're going to talk about career Transitions and Coming self-limiting beliefs, my guest is David petrovich, a David is an employment strategist and an author. His latest book life between jobs out of work, not out of worth is available now. Welcome David. Well, thank you for having me Jennifer. I'm delighted to have you here now, you've got to tell us about your own early career and what caused you to make a career transition? Oh well, that's a great question. Well, I grew up in the 50s and 60s. That's when I went to school. So that gives some sense where I am in terms of time. So when I was in college, I was graduating during the height of the Vietnam War. So there weren't a lot of choices. So you were either going to go into a position where you might be deferred or you were headed to Vietnam. And so I remember getting my letter from Uncle, Sam saying you're to report on such and such a date for your physical How I showed up with my little piece of paper in hand, from the doctor that said this person would not make it through basic training, Okay?

2:17 This may be the answer out. So the probably remember the person in front of me had a stack of papers from his doctor telling, why he shouldn't be inducted here. I am with my little 3 by 5 piece of paper. He gets inducted and they say sorry we're not going to take you so believe it or not from that. From going to where they did the physical. I was told from the University of Pittsburgh, when you find out what's happening call us and that will determine whether or not you are accepted into a master's program so that master's program was in special education. They were looking for people to work in that field. People said, oh, had you always been drawn to it.

2:58 I said, I never thought of myself as becoming a teacher, but I could do this. So, I was accepted into the program and after 34 years, Working with the blind. I decided it was time to pursue a different direction and I was very successful in what I did. I had a ward sport but I knew that the time had passed for me to stay in doing what I was doing. So I thought what is it that I loved as part of those 34 years? So 48 of them, I ran a career center at the school for the Blind and part of my job was to find them positions where they could try out whether or not they would be successful. Oil and that was a challenge.

3:38 So some of them went into hospitals to work. They went into Child Care, Centers Landscaping. So imagine fitting that person to a position when they couldn't see where they had limited Vision. So that was the challenge and I loved it. Jennifer, but again, after 34 years, it was time to move on and at the same time, I was completing a doctorate. So I thought, okay, what do I do with this? And I thought next logical, step would be to go into career. Well, for those of you who are listening easier said than done because what I did informational interviews, and as a result of it, the people I spoke to would say, well, you should be a teacher and I said, but that's what I just left and it's the old. If it looks like a duck and quacks, like a duck, it's probably a duck.

4:25 So they were seeing the duck in me, they were not seeing the rooster or whatever else was out there and I decided to make the switch. And so I conducted informational interviews with people, Oh who did this kind of work? And as a result of that, it led me into my first job. I was a career coach. Now, how things work out? That job involve working with adults who had disabilities. So, I was able to bring that experience into the mix and I only lasted in that job a short time because I realized I was underemployed, I needed to move on. So then I tried a one stop and I did that for about a year and a half, as I finished my doctorate again doing Pin and I thought this is not challenging enough for me why I have all these wonderful ideas but they're not open to what they are and how I could use them. But what was the next logical step going into business for myself?

5:22 So in the end of 2008, after finishing my doctorate, I started my own private practice and I love it. So that's really my journey from where I was to where I am today, amazing. Now, you know, Over the past couple of years, I would say, I mean, there has been such a dramatic change between when people would go for a job when you were coming out of college, versus kids coming out of college today, where if you had a certain skill level, you'd go into manufacturing, you go into a service and it was a job and it would become almost like a lifelong career or at least seemingly for a very extended period of time. You did it for 34 years which too many is an entire career and now people are looking more for fulfillments I think.

6:07 It's I mean it does that just described it? There are so many seismic shifts that are happening in the workplace right now, I'm curious to see what kind of sentiment that you're seeing and what you're doing. Well, I think Jennifer in my era, it was pretty effortless to get a job. It really was. I remember the first job that I had. I really didn't apply the principle of the school where I was doing. My student teaching came up to me and said, I don't know what your plans are after you complete your program. But we would like to have you work here. I mean, it was a simple as that. And so, it was almost as if the interview was something that was second, you know, thought to them.

6:47 And okay, I could do this because this is my training, and this is a great place to start, so it was easy to get jobs back. Then you pretty much slipped into them and many people, they followed the footsteps of their parents. So they stepped into the type of work that maybe they were doing. And so it was a very Different era. The idea of a resume, I never had a resume when I applied for that first position. Now, they won't even be considered without a really well-written resume. So other thing is, I believe we have this whole approach now to mindfulness where it's you understanding who you are and what your strengths are that you would bring to the workplace and people really need to be spending more time being introspective. Into what they bring, and that's a lot of what's included in life.

7:41 Between jobs, it's an opportunity for you to step back and really examine who you are and what you want in life. So, there is a big difference, no one ever ask those kinds of questions when we were growing up. Not just, what do you want to do? Why do you want to do it? Exactly. And I find that people are often drawn to companies that align with their values. Now values really matter, and a lot of people feel. Addison to work for companies that are not as good to their employees or maybe even a certain category or a type of business that just is, you know, not something that they would be interested in working for because it doesn't align with their values.

8:22 Do you see more and more of that coming to fruition as well? Well, the interesting thing about this and it's a perfect question is I was just listening to an interview that someone was giving and they were talking about toxic work environments and I I hear a lot of that from my clients. Yeah, and it is the buzzword right now. Toxic work environments. And the question was, where do we think that comes from? Is it because managers are not trained to be supportive, you know, what is it that contributes to this? And one person gave the perfect answer. It's because we're not aligned to the work that we need to be doing. So we're putting ourselves in environments that do not support who we are and what we want to do.

9:06 It's knowing what your Mission and vision are in life and then seeking out companies. As you said, that support those values and that setting may not work for you, but for the next person, it could be perfect. It could be just what they're looking for. So, it's less about the environment being toxic, it's more about whether or not you're aligned. And I think that from my own experience and from what I've also heard there are companies that do have very visibly stated values and very clearly expressed values. But Fortunately, either management or leadership, or the workers, do not uphold those values. And so there is this dramatic, dissonance between the way things are, and the build-up of toxicity versus what the aspiration is, and that itself creates this conflict, right? And, you know, you go into buildings and you'll see their values posted and then you wonder as you said, whether or not they really live by those values and what people have to surrender in.

10:07 Of not living up to them if that was their original belief. Oh, this is a company that values integrity and yet you don't see Integrity being practiced in the workplace. That how do you live with that? Or do you live with that or and say? No, no. Thanks. And it was very interesting to. I just was listening to a group of people and we were talking about my Myers-Briggs right before this, with my being an ENFP, and what the ENFP people were sharing was that because Cuz of this, like you said, dissonance with the values. They said, I could no longer work in this environment and so many of them who had been highly successful said, no, I need to pull the plug and either look elsewhere, or start my own company, which is what I did. Exactly.

10:54 And that's what I did too. Now, you know, getting fired or laid off, can take such an emotional toll on a person and your book actually helps people gain back their sense of self-worth. Can you tell us a little bit more about What's inside your book. So it really addresses five. Psychological areas that people face when they are between jobs and I did not invent these. These five areas came from a number of workshops that I had delivered where I began to see common themes. And so the common themes that I saw were self confidence and that is a big one. Okay. Especially if you've been laid off or fired. The other one is perseverance the willingness to To stick to this acceptance. And I think acceptance is such a big part of the process that people go through when they've been laid off or they've been fired and it really focuses Jennifer on the grieving process because you're dealing with a loss. So, I talked about those five areas that Elisabeth Kubler-Ross discusses and then there is resilience the ability to bounce back.

12:04 And then finally commitment, are you really committed To finding the job that works for you and not just taking anything. Of course. Sometimes you have to take that type of job because you have to pay the bills, but you wanted to be short term while you're looking for that right in perfect position. So that's how the book walks you through those five areas and every one of those little subsections like identifying your strengths has an exercise attached to it, so that it makes it much more active. Not just your reading the book, And oh, isn't that nice? But it requires you to do some work. Yeah, I see that. You do have a workbook associated with just helpful now.

12:44 Can you tease out the differences between perseverance and commitment, because too many, they would seem one in the same. So perseverance is basically not giving up because you're going to have days where you wake up, and you just want to pull the blankets up over your head, and it's really about the willingness to stick with it. So that's the perseverance the commitment. Is the decision that you make around what you plan to do. So one is more related to maybe how you do it and the other one is what you're doing, so they definitely support one another, but in the book, it explains the difference between the two and then takes you through different exercises around.

13:27 Now, when you talk about self-confidence, a lot of people who have gone through a current career change do as you say, have a lack of self-confidence and they have these incredible Located beliefs about themselves or these self-limiting beliefs. Can you talk a little bit more about self-limiting belief and what we can do to overcome them? So right now, this whole concept of self-limiting beliefs is a Hot Topic, it really is Jennifer. And so these are the thoughts that you create. You weren't born with them, okay? That's the first thing you came into the world, like they say the blank slate and then you began to become influenced by the people around you now, Would be wonderful if everyone would support their child growing up with. You can do this.

14:13 I'm here for you. You may not do it. Well the first time, but remember this is about progress, not Perfection. Those would be supported beliefs. Limiting beliefs are, who do you think you are? You could never do that and it leads us to what we call the Imposter syndrome, right? We've all heard of that. We're oh, if people only knew how limited I am, I would be out of a job. So it's the messages that we give ourselves. That actually guide our lives. So when you say I'm too old, that's a limiting belief. Hey, no one would hire me. That's a limiting belief and what happens is, you know, Jennifer is, when you play these tapes, these limiting beliefs over and over again. They become the way you see and experience the world. This is why we have what we call self-fulfilling prophecy. If you believe that you're too old to get a job, guess what? You'll be.

15:07 Out. Whatever that says, to the people who are hiring. Oh, he's too old, she's too old, I'm too old to learn that. Well, you know, yes, you have an age, but unless it's a skill that is age-based and it might be, you know, we're having to lift like 60 70 pounds in your 75, 80 years old and you're out of shape. Yeah, that wouldn't be within reach for you. But it's really about looking at what you do have and what you bring to the workplace in terms of Skills experience that no one else has. So you turn that around and say, rather than I'm too old. No one will hire me. You know what, I have a unique set of skills that someone is just waiting to hire. And as I say that, I actually, physically feel the power behind that.

15:57 So think about when you do limiting beliefs, and what it does, to your energy level versus making empowering statements and people said, oh but you know, that would never work. There's another limiting belief. So you see how they will reinforce one limiting belief with another to where they go nowhere in life. And also occurs on the hiring side, I would say there are limiting beliefs with respect to the choices that some employers will make in terms of candidates where they might say, oh, this person's overqualified or this person has way too many years, this person's too expensive. So what would you say to hiring managers to overcome certain limiting beliefs?

16:37 As well, it really brings it all back to them being willing to examine their own limiting beliefs. And so if they say, you know, these people are too old to hire okay. What exactly are they saying here? And sometimes they're limiting beliefs come out of their fears. So they have to be willing to face some of their fears around hiring people. So if they're looking at age, let's say you really want to take a look at what that person brings. What that lets say, 56 year old candidate would bring to the position would be experienced. They already know how to do many of the things that 20 year, olds are just learning.

17:19 So, in terms of them costing too much, they make it up in how quickly they can adapt to the position and start making money for the company. Certainly. And of course, everybody is unique, everybody does bring a certain value to the table and the best thing I think that people can bring Uh, is that enthusiasm that fresh energy, it regardless of age? I'm curious because I know that a lot of people in hearing this podcast would be like, well, maybe I should get myself a career coach or a counselor. What would be some of the benefits that people could gain from working with a person like you? Well, one of the first benefits is I can be objective about what you're experiencing. It's like you can't see the forest for the trees, when you're in the middle of the Forest, right? So when they're in the midst of all, of the, let's say the turmoil, and Being out of work.

18:08 Having someone like myself, can help bring Focus to it. The other area that I find that many people come to me with Jennifer is a lack of clarity. So they just said well I don't know what I want to do. So having a career coach can guide you through that process and one of the things that is important to ask when you're just beginning, the whole process is that what kinds of problems am I good at solving something as simple as that. That most It would not even think of, in terms of beginning. So as the people that are listening, that would be one of the first questions to answer. And it's really in problem-solving that we can become directing toward a company, where that type of ability to solve those problems is needed.

18:56 So when you go into an interview know that this is a company who's having a certain type of problem, I'm here to solve it because I'm really good at that. So I think that, you know, having a career coach. Is a great way of looking at someone's job, search with a different set of eyes. Excellent. I'm curious if you've seen any progress in the way that companies are managing their employees these days, like, are they getting better? Are they becoming more mindful? Or, you know, is a lot of it just stuff that you read and latest blogs career box and said, well, you know, having talked to multiple clients, we're all over the place. In terms of what's happening in companies, again, it's that alignment.

19:41 So some of the clients that I coach, they love where they work, where they work, allows them to take risks, to make mistakes to be acknowledged for the growth to have resources that they can go to when they don't have the answers. I mean, now we're talking about an ideal work climate, right? Then there are the other clients who are dealing with managers and supervisors were there watching. In every step that they take and if you make one error, they're going to catch you on it and let you know. So, it's always being a part of what I call the punitive environment and where the person who's in charge says, oh you thought you were going to have next week off on your anniversary? No, we need you to work and so there's very little empathy. It's all for them.

20:32 I think it's more about the dollar value. Okay? And with other ones, it's the People value, you want to look at where that company is coming from. Are they more dollar oriented? And there's nothing wrong with that if you're highly competitive and you're working in that direction or do you need to be more people oriented where people are more understanding and collaborative? All those aspects of it. So again, I don't know if there is one direction that we're taking, but it seems to be a more of a reflection of how that company. As you said, what its values are and how it lives those values. So yeah.

21:12 And you want to be mindful of that when you're looking for a job. Yeah. I was listening to this talk by Simon sinek where he was in a hotel. And he was getting served coffee by this amazing service-oriented man and he stopped to talk to him and say, you know, what is it that you love about your job? And he said this hotel, the people care about me, anybody from the top Executives down to whomever they always come up to me do you need anything? How can I support Hurt you. You know how are you today? And he gives it his. All he also works at another hotel where all they're looking for, are the mistakes and so he keeps his head down, he does the bare minimum. He tries to get out of there as quickly as he can. It's the same exact person in two different environments with dramatically different results.

21:55 And it's because of the environment of flourishing versus one that is punitive, it's very striking. Yes. And they both exist, both of those environments are out there which one would hear We spend more time in. Well, that's probably a no-brainer you inspire us to make us want to do more, which is always that, you know, the nicest thing to hear as an employer to say, you know, to think that you're giving people, the freedom of creativity, just shining and the ability to experiment without fear of failure, or any kind of repercussions, those are the environments, which are certainly more fruitful for people to feel that they're being fulfilled. And one of the things that I have learned Jennifer is what is critical in the work environment. Environment is being acknowledged for the work that you do so many times, that is not occurring. I remember when I would be doing something that was above and beyond what was in my job, description, the response that I would get from the people above me was not, you're doing a great job but well, that's what we hired you to do. So when you hear that, it does not increase your desire to be better.

23:02 What it does is it creates this culture of mediocrity, and When you have a company that is mediocre chances are they're not going to survive. Yeah. So it's the companies that are doing it right and I think companies are open to that now and it's going to be a learning process for them. Yeah. Those companies that treat their employees really well and really do care about them. Are the ones that will be the most successful because the people are what make the company. A lot of people forget, it's like, it's not just a company, it is a body of people that are coming together for Alignment of shared values or shared work and and almost like a family away from their family.

23:42 And so, where do they want to spend their time with the ones that appreciate them, right. And when you think about it, if you remove those people, all you have are empty offices. Yeah, yeah. For sure. You also have a book out called ponderings, Daily Reflections for inspiration and transformation. Can you tell us why you wrote that? So over 10 years ago, I was attending a church that was very positive. Focused. And I was talking to one of the members and telling her about my thoughts and she said, to me, have you ever thought about writing a Blog and I said, oh, that's an interesting thought. So I, this was in August of 2010.

24:24 Okay. I wrote my first blog and it's was posted on my website and I made a commitment. Okay. There's that commitment different from perseverance. It was a decision. That's really what a commitment is a. In to write a blog every day. So, for about six years I wrote a Blog every morning and it was to inspire people and then after I collected enough of them Jennifer I thought. All right? I'm going to recycle six of them and write a new one every Monday. So I have been doing that and I wonder sometimes who it's meant for the reader or myself because often times, it's what's going on with me when I share. And so, The book is divided into ten sections. Among them would be desires intentions, gratitude thoughts, feelings?

25:16 And so each of those sections contains 28 entries and they're designed to inspire and transform through a reflection. So each of the entries ends with a question and then there is space below it or people to write what their response would be related to that. So you know, it's not one that is a calendar based where he doesn't start on January first and go through December, 31st said you can just open it up and whatever it opens up to is what you're meant to read that day and I get great feedback on the difference. It's made for people that's good and that reminds me because I was going to say in contrast, you know, I read Angela Duckworth grit Buck, which is you know very good book.

25:59 And when I think about words like grit perseverance commitment a lot of times I think people think drudgery torture. But slavery and so there is a mindset shift that needs to happen about those words. I think and maybe there are alternative words that people can use that sounds a little bit more light and joyous and carefree in order to make all of these things. And you know, Angela Duckworth talks about is like the minutiae of everyday and even in a marriage it's like the everyday, just the mundanity and getting used to it and being able to live through, it gets you to a level of success over time. But to me, I like to think about inspiration enthusiasm. The joy of Like making every day as great as possible. And that way, you're doing every action and you have that built-in perseverance and that commitment to the cause which helps to kind of make things a little bit more palatable potentially, and perhaps that's something that's also built into your ponderings book. Yes.

26:52 So, when you think about commitment you gave a perfect example, Jennifer if I'm committed to getting through the day and I'm doing it in a job that I absolutely hate. Okay? It's still a commitment, right? It's a decision. What's it? Ringing me. Yeah and then there is the other commitment to doing what I loved. So as I said, I was committed to writing a Blog every day. Why? Because I loved writing them. What I learned from was my best writing comes in Snippets like anything from three sentences to a paragraph that seems to be where I shine. Now asked me to write a novel. I said it would be the shortest novel ever written.

27:33 That's just not where my thinking is, and my strengths are. But again, if you think about being committed to something that you have passion for, it's not drudgery, is it? It's a joy. Yeah. And that's so the flame going. Yep. And if you're looking a job that every day is a commitment to getting to the day when you retire, if you're not enjoying it, think about what your life looks like between where you are today. And the day that you say, I'm done. That's a lot of days. Then you've lost agree. No David, where can People get in touch with you if they want help with their career path. So they can go either to my website, which is David, Petrova, coaching.com, they can always contact me at David petrovich at gmail.com really.

28:21 Well, David, thank you so much for being a guest. I enjoyed our conversation immensely and I know that it's going to help many many people. So thank you for your work. Well, thank you. Jennifer and thank you for having me as a guest. Thank you for listening to the human Beauty movement podcast, be sure to Follow rate and review us wherever you stream podcasts. The human Beauty movement is a community-based platform that cultivates, the beauty of humankind. Check out our workshops, find us on social media and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more at the human Beauty. Movement.com, thank you so much for being a beautiful human.