Episode 45: John Tarnoff - Be Successful With Your Mid-Life Career Transition

0:07 Hello, beautiful humans. Welcome to another episode of Role Models, JC conversations with beautiful humans. I'm Jennifer Norman founder of the human Beauty movement and your host, this podcast thrives on your support. So if you like what you hear head on over to Apple podcast to rate and review us, and thank us by leaving a donation on our anchor dot f m-- page. So today's topic is such a crucial one, it's about starting A over later in life, you're in your 40s, your 50s, your 60s, you find yourself, out of a job. What do you do? My guests today knows a thing or two about helping Boomers and gen xers, face, career, change with success, this is John tarnov. John is an executive and a career transition coach, a speaker and author who supports mid and late career Professionals in defining planning and achieving more meaningful and sustainable careers.

0:58 He's also the author of The That's selling Boomer reinvention, how to create your dream career, over 50? Welcome, John. It's a pleasure to be here. And thank you so much for having me on. I'm so delighted that you're here and boy can I relate to everything that you're saying and everything that you offer because I was 48, when I founded the human Beauty movement and I was 50 when I launched humanist Beauty skincare. So I would love for you to share what your life experience had been and how it informs your choice to help. Others with later life. Career transitioning. This It all started for me when I around the time that I hit 50, I mean it's not a coincidence that this happened for you that this happened for me that this happens for a lot of people and psychologically what I understand and from my own psychology background is that at midlife and perhaps it's the Echoes of mortality that are beginning to come back at us.

1:53 But there is a shift that we all experience around this question of meaning and purpose. No and Talk about the midlife crisis, but I think that kind of pales in comparison to the identity issue that really happens beneath the surface, which is what's my legacy? What has this all meant? At the end of the day. So we naturally begin to Pivot towards a re-examination of what our lives are about. What our work is about. What are we doing to make an impact? How are we connecting with the people around us? And this usually will bring up some kind of re-evaluate. Uation around the work that we're doing now, simultaneously, because our work culture is pretty broken and Antiquated in terms of how it looks at the longevity of careers. People start to look at us with a different Viewpoint. They started to say, well, shouldn't you be thinking about retiring and the irony, there is that we're just kind of getting to this point in our lives and careers where we're feeling like, hey, I've got this figured out. I'm ready to go for another 10, 20 years and really make an amazing In contribution away your tummy. You want me to go away?

3:04 So this is just the headline of the Dilemma that we're all facing. Yeah, some of it is a bit existential. Some of it has to do with a particular career path and the company to your point that they're working for certain stereotypes. That might be out there. I think that, I mean, there are a lot of challenges that do face mid to late career workers. In today's economy, where there is this equation where young equals fresh Nimble energetic. I'm hungry. I know that in one of my former places where I was working. They used to say, the older people would actually joke about themselves and say, oh, I have CRS disease. And I say, what the heck is that? And I said, I can't remember shit and send, then they would also call themselves. Check a source is like, oh my kids know how to do that. I don't, you know, I can't figure it out. They might be set in their ways, or there might be health issues that come about and so it starts to propagate those stereotypes that, you know, older people are starting to get obsolete. Unfortunately, your examples point this out, we do this to ourselves.

4:00 Oops, we are our own worst agents in many ways and we buy into these ideas and we allow these aggressions and microagressions to be done to us. And we kind of go along and laugh. But age is, is the last ISM. And it is to the point where it is, strangely not recognized as being a bias, 92% of diversity, equity and inclusion. Initiatives at American companies, do not recognize. Age as a diversity Factor. So with all of the progress that we've made in the workforce around inclusion, we are still excluding older people.

4:40 Hmm. And it's one of those almost Unwritten policies are actually. It's not even a policy. I think it's one of those things that goes without saying because from a business perspective, if you're hiring, and you've got people that are at the top of the chain and they're very expensive, so to speak and people feel that they can Outsource, or they can hire. Anger and get the same amount of work for Less. They think that that's good business and brush. Well, first of all, a lot of myths there to unpack older is not necessarily more expensive. Younger is not necessarily more energetic, more productive. I know many stories of people who reflect how they were let go from the position in their 50s and the company had to hire two or three people to replace them. So, at the end of the day, when you factor in the costs of making that transition, because it costs more money. Obviously for companies He's to Fire and rehire than it does to retain and retrain.

5:34 So it's a colossal waste of time and money to reflexively believe that replacing an older worker. With a younger worker is going to contribute to the bottom line. It doesn't interesting. Also as you were mentioning there are people who are just finding that they're having a lack of fulfillment in their roles you know they've been doing this for years and years and years and they want more work-life balance they want. Feel that they truly live and they aren't necessarily finding that in their particular careers and simultaneously right now. We are having a massive shift in our economy, where it's not, where people are going into workplaces anymore. Thank you or think you're not covid will see. But, you know, people are getting used to working from home or there's much more of this gig economy which is just igniting where people are going it alone and developing their own sorts of businesses.

6:27 So what are some of the things that jobs? Seekers can do to have more success when they're either looking for a gig or looking to reinvent themselves. Well, I just to pick up on your point. I agree. The last few years, ironically have been a great Boon for the flexible Workforce and for giving workers of every age more options. So it's really an opportunity for older workers to kind of get with the program and recognize that the flexibility that they really want in their Lifestyles and their work Styles now. Is more tangible for them and hybrid work is a fantastic gift to all of us. The truth is that the workforce is getting more freelance. And the idea of having multiple streams of income, based on what you're good at, what you love to do, what you have an opportunity to get paid for.

7:21 This is all working to the benefit of older workers, who are trying to create more intentionality and the work that they do, get out from under the The corporate grind and really live and work in a much more balanced way. So the first tip that I would have for most people is to reframe a lot of the limiting beliefs that you may have about how you work, how you work, best what you can do. One of the early things to do is to recognize that your skills in virtually. Every case. I mean I've never found someone to be limited by their skills are portable, right? And what you do does not necessarily apply, just to your industry. Company, your level, whatever that might be, that is not a confinement to your ability to find work.

8:06 So think about not so much the job title that you do, but the real underlying function that you perform, maybe it is a technical function. Maybe it's a people function. Maybe you put certain systems together. Think about what you love to do, think about where you get most fired up in the work that you do every day. Think about what you kind of prize if you. Of look at your to-do list every day. What are the things that you really look forward to doing? And how do you negotiate with yourself to get those things either higher on the list? So you can do them first or do more of them or somehow prioritize the stuff that you love to do. The other thing I would say is that engage in conversations with the people around you, the people you work with the people, you have worked with in the past, people have known you for a long time to get their perception of what you do best. We know when are you truly on and being your most productive? Get some third-party triangulation around your value proposition.

9:05 So the you can get a clearer sense of what's the impact that I'm making up there? Where do you see me? Going what untapped skills or talents, do I have that? I'm not putting enough faith in that. I could be doing more with. So do a little bit of research around all of these areas and start to think perhaps differently about where you could make an impact. Yeah listening to your Friends. The people who have worked with you in the past and somebody like John who can be a coach and really helped to pull those things out. Some of those things that you might have blinders too because it's very hard to see past limiting beliefs and sometimes it really takes a reflector somebody to kind of pull back and say, oh, did you recognize that you were saying this about yourself or you might have the script running in your head?

9:49 That might be limiting your capability to see how much, you know, you can be offering. It's fascinating to me because I know that when people lose their jobs, when they get displaced, When suddenly, you know something happens, maybe they had their own business and lo and behold. It might have been a restaurants and covid happens and then, unfortunately, their business can't survive past that, and it really hits them hard. It creates a depression because they feel that their life's value is tied up in what they were doing, not who they were. And so the important thing always is to remember that what you do is not who you are and your value, as a person, has nothing to do with your job or with the way that you're making. Making money.

10:30 So that unto itself is a real hard lesson. It's very, very difficult for people to get to that point where they feel okay? And they really hear that and embrace it and it gets in their subconscious but that kind of work to is very important at this stage. One of the things I think I said this in my book at some point is you are more than your resume and you know there's an interesting little thing that we do you meet someone at a cocktail party or an event and they say what do you do and you say, well I am you give your job taught, you know, manager of On. So at so-and-so company, but that's not really. It's not really who you are. The more appropriate responses I work as right, not? I am. But it's that distinction that you want to make between what you do for work and who you are. So perhaps the, the more accurate answer to that is, I'm someone who connects people to projects, or I'm someone who manages teams to create great results, right? That's what you do.

11:27 It's not the job title. Exactly. Well, you did mention earlier about your value proposition, and in marketing, we call it the unique selling proposition, or the, you sp, can you explain for those that might not be familiar with what the value proposition is. And why you think it's such a key component of a candidates career. So there are two Paradigm shifts that, I think is really important for people to make who have come out of a more traditional job search philosophy. And the old way of doing it is, you know, you decide. You didn't quit your job or you get fired or whatever. Is the first thing you do is you put your resume together and you look online for jobs that are open and you start submitting your resume and cover letters to these open positions. And you hope you're going to get a call back to go in for an interview unlikely to happen today. Because so many people are applying to jobs. Recruiters are overwhelmed, they're putting your resume through a applicant tracking system looking for keywords and there's ageism, right?

12:26 So you can try to hide your age on your LinkedIn profile or on your resume but they're going to figure out how old you are and if they are ages to not going to hire you the value, proposition goes hand-in-hand with networking as the philosophy that you want to adopt. So instead of trying to fit yourself into jobs, that are out there where you can do the job where it's got, well, I can do three out of five of the listed requirements or two out of ten or whatever that might be by cultivating, your value proposition. Planting a stake in the sand that says, this is who I am. This is what I do. These are the results that I deliver in the very specific area of focus that I concentrate in where I am a killer provider and people say well I can do so many things, shouldn't I spread that around and be able to kind of fit into any number of possible jobs and and have a lots of irons in the fire. Sounds good doesn't work that way. Because increasingly you were talking about the gig economy increasingly Ali hiring managers employers are looking for Specialists.

13:33 Things are changing so fast in the economy. People are trying to cope with new challenges all the time. They are looking for someone to solve this particular problem or set of problems. Set up this kind of project whatever that might be so by niching down and seemingly to cut off a lot of possible jobs out there. You're actually concentrating yourself in an area where you are. Likely to get traction, get considered, get interviewed and get hired. So the value proposition becomes crucial in defining who you are and separating yourself out from the competition because also at the end of the day, yes other people do what you do but no one does it quite the way you do it. So by really focusing on that value proposition how you deliver?

14:21 What are the steps that you actually employ to deliver the results that you deliver distinguish yourself and your methodology? It's a really A great opportunity to kind of drill deep on on how you do it and what you've learned, all of these years that you've been working. This is the advantage of an experienced older worker. You really know your stuff, right? You're not just some person who's been doing this for five years, you've been doing for 15 years or 25 years. You really know the ins and outs of its and believe me, if you were delivering a result that someone wants, they have, they don't care how old you are, they just want their delivery. So that's why the value proposition is the way to start. On the other side of it is, how do you sell your value proposition?

15:03 You sell it through your network. You get people to understand what it is that you do and they can sell it for you. If you have a really clearly defined value proposition, it's really easy for people to say, oh I get it. Oh yeah, I've got five people. I can introduce you to. Whereas if you are a generalist and this happens to me all the time with clients, they'll say, look, I don't like going out to my network because once I say I'm looking for a job people never really helped me. They don't want to help me but they don't. Know how to help me. So I don't see the value of the network and I say, well, that's because you don't have a value that people can really understand and help you with. So this is just the kind of headline that the entree Point into the methodology and how people should be thinking about going to work in this new 21st century.

15:49 Yeah, and certainly, there are going to be common objectives, especially as technology is starting to create some obsolescence in particular jobs, because a lot of things can be Made it I mean software as a service is a great example. I mean in some cases accountants aren't needed anymore, lawyers aren't needed anymore to do certain things and so it is the understanding and recognition that you have value in what you've done and then your humble enough to recognize that you still have so much learning with like every single day, is a new opportunity to continue learning and to garnishing your enthusiasm for. Hey, this is how I'm going to be able to make myself adaptable in the marketplace and end with what's going on. On in technology and in the job market and I'm keeping myself fresh so that there is not that debate. I think that point about obsolescence and SAS businesses or accountants or lawyers or anyone in a particular Niche, it invites even more specialization and more resourcefulness. So, I gave an example of a accountant who worked for a CPA firm retired.

16:53 Water-type didn't want to stop working, so he decided he was going to open up a solo practice and I think he was Targeting young couples who wanted to invest in Residential Properties. So it was really specific. And he did this because he loved real estate. He loved looking at houses and helping heal of the deals. Your ideal of making deals on real estate and he loved teaching and he loved younger people and he had, I think, you know, he had a bunch of kids who were in their 30s and so we thought well, why don't I just do what I love to do, which is help people buy investment properties. So that became Came his gig and very, very narrow but it checked all the boxes for him and when you come up with something like that that's deeply authentic fun to do.

17:41 I mean you want to get up and do every morning? You never feel like he's clients are driving me crazy, right? It's always. Oh, they're calling. I can't wait to find out what's going on with that deal on how I can help them. When you start to feel that way about the work that you do, well, you're gonna be able to do it for the rest of your life as long as you want to work. Right. Absolutely. Okay. So, I'm going to put on my hat as if I'm in a company and maybe I'm an HR in a larger company, and I've been there for decades, and I've seen the course of things happening and time and time again, there is evidence that as people are in their jobs longer than they lose their enthusiasm, and they get tapped out, and they just aren't really producing as much and they're not seeing as much value as people are in these particular career paths or within the company. And so So here comes a d EI.

18:31 Consultants and says ageism, you can't it, but unfortunately their track record and all of the evidence that they're seeing within their company is saying, you know what, we've got to shed all of this and they'll call it dead weight or we've got a front, you know, shake things up, freshen things we need to do something different and, you know, we're going to fund our future by removing those that we feel are probably best to, you know, take a different path. Like, what would you say, you know, coming into a situation and I'm sure it happens. All the time because unfortunately, that's just the way that a lot of businesses had been operating and, and that's just seems to be a traditional thing that's done. When doesn't need to be made. There's a key leadership question that leads into this situation that you're suggesting. And that leadership question has to do with, who takes responsibility for an employee, not working out and needing to be.

19:23 Let go, is it the employees fault? Or is it the managers fault and Progressive leadership will I say, it's the managers fault because you hired that person for a reason, right? I mean, you did your wedding people who get hired and companies today, go through rounds and rounds of interviews. So if they didn't succeed, it's because either you made the mistake of hiring the wrong person, or you made a series of mistakes, and not understanding how to manage them to get the best performance out of them. So, if you have that mindset, where as a leader, you're willing to take responsibility, 100% responsibility for everything that's Turning on your watch then, rather than go in and say, well, we have to get rid of the Dead weight, which is going to be expensive. And I would challenge companies and managers who go through with those callings to justify those actions on their budgets and their bottom lines.

20:18 Because I think what they would find is that if they actually go in and interview, the people that they are looking to get rid of whom, they believed to be dead weight, they are going to Find untapped resources, people who are bored out of their minds, who are unmotivated, who have been victimized in toxic relationships with management, who have been systematically excluded by company culture, and who aren't having fun anymore. But who would like to be making a contribution, I would say that sure there's going to be a percentage of people who are irredeemable who have lost the thread of it, who are unwilling whose You're crossed and are taking an attitude of you owe me this job. I've been here for 20 years.

21:05 You can't fire me. You should just let me do this job until I'm ready to go. Well, that's not going to fly. I mean, everyone's got to pull their weight, right. But for the majority of people who are saying look, I would love to be able to make a contribution but I'm not being given the chance. This is a great opportunity rather than getting rid of them to figure out how to fix the situation and use all of that time, that's going to be spent searching. Four new candidates. Interviewing new candidates, you know, trying to rebalance the equation about who's doing what? Well, we can't find anyone who's going to replace that worker. Can you maybe do half of their job will get someone else and we'll kind of pull this around and some kind of crazy. Rubik's Cube to make the department work. Why why pull yourself out?

21:51 Part at the seams and redo everything. When you've got the resources right there, the problem is not the dead weight. The problem is that You've killed the weight and you need to revive it. Yeah, I think in the situations there's a lot of work that can be done to, you know, use the word heel. Maybe there's a better management word, but it's like he'll those relationships. He'll, he'll be attitude. That management has as well as what the workers have because to your point. I have heard so many people. I've been here 20 years. I do know. I deserve this. It's like that sense of entitlement. Yes. And really there's no such thing as real entitlement, right? Everyone's got a I work harder than ever before because we're all living in this time, of great uncertainty about so many things about the future. All of our businesses are interrelated in a way that they never were related before and businesses can go out of business.

22:45 You know, in a heartbeat, right? People can be disrupted out of the world in 6 months, right? Absolutely. Well, I love to celebrate the companies and the people who are doing it, well, are there any companies that come to And that you feel are really stepping up to the challenge and really doing right by those that are, you know, in their 50s and like, later in their career and holding onto them and providing them the resources and continuing to nurture those people. You know, there's no one company that I would cite. But I, what I would suggest is and I just was talking to this guy asked, there is an organization called age-friendly dot-org, okay? It was started and run by a guy named Tim driver. It's in Boston. It's a Visionary in the older career. Space started the website, retirement jobs.com, mature caregivers comes out of the employment and salary policy area worked at AOL back in the day and doing career stuff and he's a complete Visionary and he works with companies to certify them as age, friendly environments. So he is a social entrepreneur who has put together a few hundred companies now under the certified age friendly employer, Banner Cafe.

23:57 Interesting little acronym to identify He's that recognized the value of older workers, and who's hiring and employing policies. Promote an intergenerational Workforce because it's not just about preferring older workers. It's about creating any talks about this, creating a Level Playing Field for everyone. So, when you think about Dia initiatives, including age, as a deai factor, making sure that resources are accessible prgs employee, Resource Group are available for older workers as a Resource as well as for workers of certain ethnic, disabilities, gender, identity, whatever. Might be of a great, an advantage for people within companies to help them have a better experience to relate better to the company's Mission. You know, the key here is the multi-generational workforce. That's really what we have to be promoting. Absolutely and the same thing with the human Beauty Movement, we are all about the recognition that no matter who you are, whether you're older.

24:57 Younger black white. Red Brown. Well whoever you love whatever your gender identity is whatever your skin tone is you matter and it's important for you, or for us to remind you sometimes that you are so important and valuable in your own way. And so, by having guests on like, John that can help to recognize for those that are getting on in years that they have so much life to live. They have so much to give and so much more to manifest. And so, to continue to nurture yourself in the Enthusiasm, that you have for life and for what you have to offer and all the love, and the wonderful things that you have experienced in your path that can help to continue to drive forward, a better future. That's what this is all about.

25:42 That's why we're all together doing this and spreading these messages. So John, I want to thank you so much for coming on as my guest today. You are a beautiful human. You are a role model. Thank you pleasure. I appreciate it. And so I will put all of John's links in the show notes. Please check him out and maybe get some coaching when you feel the need and we will See you all soon next week for another episode of Role Models. Thank you, thanks.