Episode 61: Johanna Louie - Let's Talk Openly About Suicide Prevention

0:07 Hello, beautiful humans. Welcome to the human Beauty movement podcast. I'm your host Jennifer Norman. Throughout my life, I've been a lover and a seeker of all things beauty from art and dance to cosmetics, and fashion to music and nature. But through my own personal Journey. I've come to discover what I believe is the most beautiful thing. In the universe, the beauty of the human soul, on this podcast, I sit down with beautiful humans from all corners. Of the globe and all walks of life to learn how they are living their own unique. Soul Beauty out loud. You'll hear from game changers. Rebels with gray causes stages odds, feeders and Valiant Warriors who fall down seven times and get up eight. This is the podcast where abundant energy flows and supreme wisdom is bestowed.

0:59 Get ready to enjoy the inspiration. Hello, beautiful humans. I'm Jennifer Norman founder of the human. Move in and your host. Now, let's face it. Some subjects are just harder to talk about than others, but we must talk about them. Because, raising awareness, and spreading understanding can actually help save lives. So this episode comes with a trigger warning because we're going to talk about how to prevent suicide. We all get shaken. When we hear the news that someone took his or her own life that's of seemingly happy or successful people like Robin Williams, Anthony Bourdain. McQueen and Stephen twitch boss. A reminders that people may be hurting more severely than they.

1:43 Let on my special guest today is Johanna. Louis a licensed social worker, and co-founder of suicide is different, which aims to address gaps in resources for caregivers supporting people experiencing Suicidal Thoughts. A warm. Welcome to you Johanna. Thanks so much sharing, first, great to be here. I'm so delighted to have you. And yes, this is such an important topic and I first off want to say, Thank you for the work that you do. I would love for you to share with everybody. Your background. Tell us about how you got into this. No, I appreciate the invite and being able to share a little bit about my story and also some ways that we can all work together towards preventing suicide and making it something that is easier to talk about. I think so, my first interaction with suicide happens in college really.

2:33 And it was the first time that I think for a lot of people write, first time you are Away from home. First time, you are kind of more on your own and experiencing caring for someone who is thinking about suicide was just something that no one told me that I might encounter in college, right. People told me like, you're gonna have to choose your major look for internships and all of those things, but no one really prepares you for that. And I think the challenging thing is like, you're barely learning to take care of yourself. Let alone be put into a position to kind of care for others. I felt like a lot of people would like assumed that like, okay, she should What to do it. I was a social ecology major. That took a lot of psychology classes. I was a peer educator at the counseling center and I never learned anything about suicide. I never learned how to talk about it and that really was my first kind of window into like wow there's not a lot of support out there and it did plant a seed of something that I was interested in, right?

3:29 Like, I was able to get the people that needed help, connect it to the counseling center where I was part of, but I still didn't really know what to do. And because of that interest a couple of years later, I actually ended up starting as a volunteer on a crisis line locally and that was really the start of my professional journey and since then I've been involved with in the suicide prevention space ranging from like a more volunteer perspective and managing programs consultant basis and also like doing more clinical work more recently as I kind of like learning different facets of the field and hopefully now like really focusing on supporting caregivers. That's And how amazing that you really do Vin after college and said, this is something that I really think is important, and that I want to dedicate my time to. So thank you for volunteering and for continuing this as your profession.

4:19 So, I think that a lot of people, you know, they hear about suicide and it's like one of those topics that is to so uncomfortable because no one knows what to say, nobody knows really what to do. We know that there are tools out there but it seems like individual situations are varied and different. You tell us what are some of The things that maybe to start off with might be some signs that. Hey, there's something going on that. Maybe I should lean in a little bit more and pay attention to as a friend, as a family member. What would you say? Yeah, I think that I always tell folks trust your gut. I think that if you are noticing something as different that typically is something to follow up on.

4:59 So I think that, if you finding yourself concerned, there's probably a reason and really kind of following that in terms of specific, you know, Warren Signs and risk factors. I think that there are a lot of different things, right? Like hearing someone's talking about this, right? If someone is giving away their belongings, they might be engaging in more risky, behaviors, I think that warning signs and risk factors are pretty well-documented. When we see these signs are when we see that someone's feeling down when we're seeing that someone is perhaps like increasing their alcohol and drug use, right? They're withdrawing from activities, isolating themselves. What's really? Important is also noticing like a change in their Baseline.

5:40 So I always use the example when I'm doing trainings and whatnot. That, like, if someone never leaves the house, without putting their makeup on and dressing really nicely, and then suddenly like, you have to drag them out of the house and they want to go outside and pajamas, right? That's a very notable difference. Whereas, like, when I was in college, if you saw me wearing sweatpants during finals week outside, that probably doesn't mean too much. So I think that kind of being able to notice the differences. And behavior. I think is a really big one and really great to kind of see warning signs and risk factors. I think to your point earlier, it just differs for different people that being able to kind of notice like changes I think. And then following your gut I would say that those are my top two kind of advice for folks when they ask me what to look out for fascinating and I was looking at some statistics from the CDC.

6:30 I think that the latest data that I could find was from my 2020 as a wrap-up and it was saying that like there's a suicide every even minutes or in the United States or about 130 per day. So I mean it's quite pervasive and I think there are some specific groups that have a higher propensity for suicide than others. I think that, you know, folks that are in the lesbian gay or bisexual communities have a higher rate of suicidal thoughts or behaviors compared to peers, who identify as heterosexual white males. Also tend to have a higher propensity to actually execute upon a suicide but even Females. I think that females have like a 1.5 higher chance of actually trying to or having thoughts of suicide versus other groups, which is quite alarming. Yeah, I think some other statistics, that really kind of guide.

7:22 Some newer programming is just around Youth and suicide amongst youth. Like, it being very commonly, top three causes of death for folks younger than 24. Right? I think just behind kind of accidental death. So I think that's another area that That we think about a lot when we kind of do this work and think about like what populations we want to really focus on. I think one of the things that also, I like to remind folks is that like suicide doesn't discriminate even while like I think statistics are so helpful in terms of making sure that you know, like the right resources are customized for certain populations kind of recognizing that no one's necessarily in the clear.

8:03 So to speak the idea that like, you know, things can build up for Books and even if like a lot of times, we're only seeing a snippet of someone's life and it might not look that bad from our point of view. But recognizing that as things build up, it's going to be harder and harder for them to Envision a future. And that can really lead to decrease hope and we to thoughts of suicide as well. You're exactly right. I often wonder because there is probably a correlation between depression or certain mental, health, conditions, and suicide. And while there seems to be Like a movement towards people saying oh, if somebody is negative or if they seem like they're at like an energy vampire, then you don't need to spend too much time with them like, you know, cards yourself and so it tends to isolate people that might be having an issue we're having problems.

8:52 It's not as compassionate as saying, hey, you know, I'm going to be there for you. No matter what think that there's something going on here. And so, there is seemingly fine balance between making sure that you're preserving your own emotional and mental wellness, and also having enough love Yourself and enough strength to be able to consider and care for those that are around you too. Yeah definitely. And that's actually like one of the basis of why suicide is different was founded. We really recognize that the caregiver needs support to when you look at like folks who know someone who's thinking about suicide the Harris poll did a study a couple of years back and they talked about how 50% of adults actually said that they knew someone who was thinking about suicide. I mentioned suicide in some way and generally people want to help, like, I think the numbers were either 90-95 percent of people reported, hey, like, I would want to do something, but the biggest barrier being, I don't know what to do and that causes fear.

9:51 And I think that when we think about that, that's why we felt like having a service specifically for caregivers allowing them to really think through how am I going to approach this, who else is part of the Care team? It's not all on me. I don't have to be everything for this person and then being able to think about What does taking care of myself? Look like, how do I sustain being a support for others? Making sure that it doesn't drain me, right? Because we all have limits as much as we like, to think sometimes. Oh, we can do anything. And I think that's a great mindset, but we all ultimately do have some limitations and being able to recognize what those are and ensure that like, hey, when we take care of ourselves, that's the best way for us to take care of others. But also, I can transfer care.

10:34 And if I'm not in the place, I'm going to connect this person with Other support, I think is a really big key there, too. So I definitely agree that like, being able to be even in the space to be able to provide support is not something that's easy to do. Hmm. I think, you know, stepping back to some of your earlier work when you were, you know, working hotlines and like that. I think about the folks that call in and they're like, I need help. Thank goodness. There's resources like that, where people like, they don't know where to turn, but they know that they need help. And there's somebody on the other end of the line that cares and knows I had heard. This amazing story about somebody who got a phone call. I think it was a person who worked in a bookstore, got a phone call from a friend.

11:15 And the friend was like, I'm saying, goodbye, this is the end and the person was on the phone. I think that it was a gay bookstore and was like, trying to talk this person off of the ledge, but was at work and wanted to try to be as quiet as possible, because they were people in the bookstore. But then suddenly people started noticing the kind of phone call that was happening. And so they started to tap the person on the shoulder that they were like, my turn. I got this and One by one. They all started to line up and took turns talking compassionately and lovingly to this person on the phone. Cuz they're like, we've all been there. We've all felt this way, we know it. It's like and it just caused me to like, well, up with tears. Thank goodness. There are people that care and probably saved that person's life and that moment because it's just a few do something impulsive. You know, it's like at least you have somebody to turn to even if it's strangers, they will come to your Aid. And so I'm just curious like what those conversations must have.

12:07 Like when you were on that other end of the phone and you've got somebody that's in an emergency situation, like how you diffuse and get them to a place where they feel better. That's me is like magic. And if anybody has like a nugget that they can take away from that, I think would be just so, so important error. I think that the story that you mentioned, I actually think highlights look. The magic is and that's compassion, right? Compassion? Being willing to listen kindness and taking the time, right? And I actually would love to highlight Light like a new number that's been out since the middle of last year. 988 I think that's a really good resource. We have charged 24/7. There's obviously other crisis lines out there with the Trevor Project and other kind of resources that are available as a lot of people don't realize that a lot of these crisis lines are volunteer and obviously the volunteers are going through. Very intensive training, they are being supervised. However, they're not necessarily taught while these clinical skills, right?

13:03 And I think that what it is is the compassion is taking the time. And I think that we live in an age where we're pretty hung up on like I want to say the right thing, I want to make sure that everything is perfect. I don't want to say anything offensive and rub them the wrong way. I think that a lot of people, what they don't realize is that often times, even if you say the wrong thing, so to speak, people are very perceptive and can tell that like, you did it mean about right? Like, even when people are in crisis, most of the time, they might tell you like, hey, I didn't really feel that way or I don't like that. You just said that or maybe they might take a step back and you can kind of be like Okay, to maybe something came out wrong and I can address it. I think that a lot of times it's not about saying the right words, because there are probably no right words to be honest, and it's about the feeling that you can allow them to feel like, hey, you're not alone in this moment.

13:51 I got you right, like, I'm here with you, I'm going to sit here with you and here to listen, think that human connection, I think is so important. And I would honestly say that that's the magic sauce because, of course, talk a little bit more about the technical things to ask just to make sure that the Personal safe. We can talk about that a little bit more, but I would say that, like, just kind of being there for someone sitting and that dark place with them. Hmm. And not jumping to, it's going to be okay, don't worry about it. But being like that sucks, homie more. That is really where the magic is. Yeah, being present and listening. It sounds like, even if you don't say anything, I'm here, I've got you. I'm here. I'm here to listen. You're not alone in this and just talk. Let me hear what's going on.

14:36 Even if it's just that, At it. Sounds like that. Is helpful, right? 100%. And I think that's what a lot of people looking for, right, Making Connections being able to feel like, there's hope, right? Because I think earlier talked about how a lot of times, it's a buildup of things, right? And it's hard for them to see the future, see that there can be Morrow, and I think that when we're helping them make connections to life were building a connection with them. That's really what's so powerful about conversations, okay? And then if it is a phone call that you're on, or if it's a text then what my Some of those safety questions that would be helpful just to make sure that they're not in any imminent danger. You know, I think a lot of people when they hear about the aside, when they think about like what might the response be a lot of times, I okay, so yes or no question and when you ask someone are you thinking about suicide?

15:23 Sure. That technically is a yes or no question, but when you want to understand suicidality, it's a little bit beyond that, right? We are trying to understand the intricacies of it, the Nuance of it, because if someone says yes, there, Are thinking about suicide. I just don't want to be here anymore. That's very different than someone telling me. Yes, I'm thinking about suicide. I check the medicine cabinet, and I know that I have these painkillers left over from my previous surgery. I have enough to have a dose. That would be lethal. I googled this. And I'm going to take steps to do that today, right? That's a very different story. So being able to get a better sense of like, okay, yes or no, if it's no, then like you kind of move forward with, you know, the conversation talking about what's going Like what is the answer is?

16:08 Yes, like okay tell me a little bit more about that. Right. Have you done anything already today to act on these thoughts? Are you safe right now? I just want to know that to make sure that we can have a conversation. Of course, if you're in person with this person, that might not be a question that you need to ask, but maybe right, if you're kind of noticing that there's some physical fine, but they might not be doing too well. Inquiring a little bit about like, hey, how much have you thought about this? Like, do you have a plan for what you might do? Have you thought about when you would do this? May be where you would do this? Tell me a little bit more about even the past, right? We know that like people who have attempted suicide in the past or more likely to make another suicide attempt. So different questions. I think like that can really help paint a fuller picture. And why talk about it in a spectrum is because I think a lot of times people here, yes to suicide and they kind of shut down or run away, or maybe they're like, oh, I need to call the emergency services, right.

16:55 There's a whole range of responses when a lot of times when someone is thinking about it, passively just listening and being there is really the key. But obviously, there are times when we do need to get a professional. Bob, I always encourage folks who don't have too much training in this step, hey, like, you don't have to be alone and doing this right there are a lot of tools out there. If you Google questions to ask suicide Spectrum, there is like web pages that kind of can lead you through this. But I always say the best resource is to call Crisis Line. Together, have the crisis counselors help with doing a assessment or even if they're really against it, you can call the crisis line before the conversation. Kind of write down some of these questions and get some guidance because you're going to have more context.

17:37 Use it kind of like a consultation. There's actually a lot of third-party calls at these crisis lines. A lot of people are like, well I'm not the one in crisis. I shouldn't be calling but dumb supporting you is a former Suicide Prevention, right? So I think it is important for folks to know that that's a service to help you gain more knowledge around, how to conduct a assessment, get a better sense of what's going on and recognize like what your next steps? Can be amazing. Now I was astonished to learn. That suicide is the second leading cause of death for people ages. 25 to 34. But most shockingly to me, 10 to 14. I couldn't believe that suicide is the second leading cause of death among children tend to 14 years old.

18:17 I mean, that is just heartbreaking. And so if I think about parents, as caretakers imagining that a lot of your clients or the folks that you're working with our parents and it's like when they've got kids that say like you know they want to end it all at sometimes, you don't know if they're just doing it for attention. Sometimes you just have a combative relationship and so it's like how in the world and they They're practically speaking different languages because youth are so into their own culture versus perhaps the parents. And, you know, there seems to be a bit of a divide between the relationship of some parents and kids. And so I'm just curious about like, for those that are caretakers. And I know that you had mentioned that a lot of what people can do is take care of themselves. First, if you're a parent, that's already stressed out and overwhelmed and I know how, you know being a working parent myself.

19:02 It's like, there's only so much that they can do, but then when you have a child who's extremely College might be into drugs or there's peer pressure at school which is just you know too much for the child to bear. Like are there any things in the toolkit that parents in particular of at-risk children can be advised of. I think that all of the things that you mentioned are the biggest challenges, right? Most of the clients that I work with our parents. It's something that they have added pressure on and there's so many different emotions. I think, for parents, I think one that they commonly faced is that there's a sense of the I caused this. I think. That a lot of parents that I've worked with have also said, when we're in the therapist office, right? They are like, what did you do, right?

19:43 It's kind of like the blame is cast it on the parents and unfortunately disproportionately on Mothers as well. Though, I think that this is such an important topic, right? How do parents kind of engage? And I always suggest parents take the time to take a step back and think about what your values and beliefs are around suicide. Because again, right, like I mentioned earlier, there is never going to be the right words to say, But it's like your children are very perceptive and they can feel where you're coming, from them, kind of like your intentions and whatnot. And when parents take the time to really think about maybe some biases that they have around suicide and address that first and really make sure that they're approaching talking about suicide and approaching caring for their child with.

20:27 Hey, I just want you to be okay, right. Like I'm not coming into this with the Judgment that I might have around suicide at large. Right. I think that's really important. Of course, There are scenarios where maybe there's a crisis at hand and we're not able to kind of go through that first. I always tell parents like being able to ask directly is also really key parents are in the position who helped kind of make the environment safe, right, whether that's, you know, removing pills from the medicine cabinet, and ensuring that if they have guns in the home that children do not have access to them. Right? Ensuring that razors or not accessible. If knives are like stored safely, there's a lot that parents can tangibly do as well. I think that being able to kind of think through some of those things, learn some skills around how to approach topic and also how to ask about and how to have conversations with the child.

21:17 They can really sense that like hey this is coming out of care and then getting them to professional supports and hopefully being open to working collaboratively with the professionals. Right? I think that that's also really key. A lot of times what happens is when someone is in treatment for their maybe depression, whatnot. And it's like there are suicidal thoughts involved the therapist August or even if it's like you go to the emergency room, you call Crisis Line. What they do is work on a safety plan with the person and I think that being able to talk through that safety plan with the child saying like Okay, I know that these things can activate certain emotions in you mix time, I noticed them, I can help remind you that like, hey, are you okay? I'm going to take it as an invitation to check it, right.

21:58 There is a list of things that they can do and when your child is in crisis, it's likely that they might not remember those things, right? So, helping them make it more accessible, right? Maybe they like You go for a bike ride and we buy a bike and have that be something that they can do or maybe we can do together as a family. So I think that like being able to collaborate on what safety can look like, can be a really important part and really involve the parents so that they're not just sort of in this like a distant. I think that sometimes I've heard that from parents, like, they feel like they just take their child to therapy and they don't know what's going on there and then they're like, well, the therapist only needs to be my child for an hour or couple hours a week when I have To be with them for 24/7. So, I think that being able to be involved in that way is really important as well.

22:43 Yeah. And I was just thinking about, you know, some of the examples that I've come across where, you know, there might be a divorce where maybe, you know the dad leaves, or what have you and then all of a sudden, the child feels like they're no longer loved. And there's this whole sense of Oppression and identity that gets disintegrated, which leads to self mutilation or just troubling behaviors and could spiral but yeah, and the parent who's left there. Feeling Helpless. Like there's like you're telling me to buy a bike and it's not like, it's almost for sure. What more can I do to make sure that my child is safe and healthy and went and it almost feels like the world is working against you, where it's like everything in the media or anything at school. Like it just seems like your children might be subjected to all of these negative influences that are beyond the parents control. And meanwhile everybody's pointing the finger at the parents and saying you should have known or, you know, you should have a handle on your own. Child and then that makes them feel even guiltier. So it's a whole spiral, but it sounds like, you know, the first thing to do is just that open communication. It sounds like that is the start of any good relationship is just like trying to be present in there to talk through or really, haven't let me know.

23:52 A heart-to-heart conversation may be a key to unlocking certain healthier habits and ways to help. Not always, but certainly that might be one way you're a film that I actually recently had a conversation with a client and we came up with the theme. Over communication, right? There's nothing that I should be assuming about my child, right? I'm going to bring up conversations and one of the things that hopefully I've noticed work well with a lot of parents that I work with is also giving more autonomy to their child, right? So instead of saying like I need to have a conversation with you about something really important, we need to do it right now, let them know. Hey, I want to talk with you about some things regarding, you know, how you've been doing. I know that it takes emotional labor to have these conversations.

24:37 It takes energy. I know you have like a lot of exams or something this week. When do you think might be a good time for us to have this conversation right? Of course, space determining by like Crisis and safety. There might be times when you have to give a little bit less autonomy but doing something like that can help the child feel hey, like I feel my boundaries or being respected. I feel that it's not. Just my parents are making this choice for me. I have a say and when I talk about this, whether it's that or instead of saying like, hey, you have to go to a therapist saying like hey let's For therapist together. Let's make sure that we find the right fit and we find a program looks like we can look through the treatment centers and their websites. And you can pick which one you think that you would want to go to the most. So, again, instead of being more directive, allowing them to gain more power in the situation in a way that's safe. I think those two factors are kind of common themes that I've seen work well for parents.

25:28 Wonderful. I'm just curious to about maybe it's an older person. Maybe it's an older person that, you know, just feels like there at the ends of life and they Might be talking about like, mortality and morbidity? Is that something to be alarmed about? Is that something to be concerned about? Or do you think that that's more natural when you're getting towards the end of years? And you might have an illness, or you might have certain feelings that, you know, I'm ready to go. I'm just curious what your perspective is on that. Yeah, no I think that's a great question and also brings up a lot of different other conversations, right like with assisted suicide and what not my perspective on it. As you know I work with people. I work with in the Drawers. And in that case, I really want to know what it means for them. I'm always going to be curious about what it means for them and ask about it as opposed to like, you know, because I actually think some of those thoughts, even not for older people about mortality and whatnot is Pretty Natural but I never know what it is for a certain individual, right? So I think always kind of taking them seriously, taking them at face value and asking about them and caring about it is always I would say kind of my to go just because like even if someone One is saying certain things and it's just part of this process. It could be helpful to talk about, right? Even if someone is saying something because they want attention, there's probably some pain and suffering there and that's leading to them mentioning suicide and talking about these things that would kind of bring attention to them, right?

26:54 It's a probably a way to ask for help. So I think that always exploring always being curious would be sort of my first thought in situations like that. Yeah, good point because it could be a natural part of the grieving process. Maybe they'll Ask their spouse, you know and said they feel alone and they might just be like oh I want to be with my spouse or something to that effect, but it could be just in that moment, they could be feeling so overwhelmed with grief and then or even supporting them at that point and then helping them see the good in life and all the benefits so sticking around until it's so God calls you home, right? Well your hallelujah thank you so much for being on the show today, I am so grateful for your work and I am going to put your information in the show notes that people.

27:36 People can find you and learn a little bit more about suicide is different. It could be truly truly helpful for those that are in need. Thank you, thank you so much. Thanks again, thank you for listening to the human Beauty movement podcast. Be sure to follow rate and review us wherever you stream podcasts. The human Beauty movement is a community based platform. That cultivates, the beauty of humankind, check out our workshops, find us on social media and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans. In your life, learn more at the human Beauty. Movement.com, thank you so much for being a beautiful human.