Episode 34: Joshua Rodriguez - Let's Talk About Sex, Kink, and The Healthy Way to BDSM

0:07 Hello, beautiful humans. Welcome to another episode of Role Models. Do you see conversations with beautiful humans? I'm Jennifer. Norman founder of the human Beauty movement and your host, this podcast thrives on your support. So if you like what you hear head on over to Apple podcast to rate and review us and thank us by leaving a donation on our anchor dot f m-- page. Okay, people so we Are going for it. On today's episode, we are going to get kinky here on role models. We are all about radical inclusivity and radical self-acceptance. So that means dispelling, the idea of Shame And discussing topics that may make us feel a bit uncomfortable, so I invite you to step outside your comfort zone with me today. My guest is Joshua Rodriguez, Joshua. Known as Master Joshua in the BDSM leather. Community is the facilitator educator. That promoter host and professional Dom in one-on-one sessions, Joshua guides, his clients towards self-acceptance empowering them to gain control of and become active. Participants in their own lives.

1:13 Drawing upon his unique hard-earned. Transformational experiences. He has developed personalized, methods of nontraditional sexual behavior, counseling, geared, particularly towards catalyzing self-actualization over the past 12 years, he has helped many People rid themselves of Shame so they can Embrace their identities live richer and more fulfilling lives. Welcome Joshua. Hello Jennifer. Thank you so much for having me on your show. I'm really excited to share this time with you. I am so excited to dive in and where to begin. Now you started practicing BDSM around 20 years ago. Long before 50 Shades of Grey though. Can you set the stage for our listeners? And first Define, you know how you got into it? And let us know like what in the world to BDSM is anyway. Absolutely.

2:04 So let us start with the acronym Medias. All right. There's a few different ways to approach it the way I like to explain it. Best is how you break it down to three sections, where you have to be in the Deep, which is bondage and discipline. You have the dles, which is dominance and submission. And then you have the S and the M which is sadism and masochism, right? To the bondage, is around the restriction. And the discipline is around discipline, right dominance, and submission is about power exchange, sadism, and masochism is about sensation, right? So you can almost It's a boner ability. Power exchange sensation. It's a very thing. I've never heard it explained that way. Yeah, because you have to look at the differences in relationships, right? And granted having been doing this for as long as I have, I've been doing it professionally for over a decade in my own Journey. When you think about sensation experiences, I go back to my child's right before sexual identity. Was at the Forefront we were experiencing Sensations, right? Playing doctor playing cops and robbers playing Damsel in Distress.

2:59 These were Different scenarios that would be raped, experience, Sensations, and emotions freely, and playful, right? As we progress. And we get older politics religion, and Community culture, they all tell us frame us or shape Us in the do not write. So, as we get older, we kind of get boxed out of these extra Curiosities that we have these desires that we have because we're ashamed out of, right? So my journey into BDSM came from sex addiction, right? The desire to find out more right before I realized it was sex addiction itself. It was drive to have more. Sensation and experience, and in that process as well as counseling around section in that process, I learned the power of the role that I play in the relationships that I'm in, right? And it took me until my mid-20s to realize that what we're putting into the time spent is our identity, is our experience. And for a lot of us, we don't realize that we're not in the driver's seat for a long time driver seat. Meaning we are experiencing things happen to us. We're not really guiding or directing the things that are happening with us, right?

3:59 So it was a turning point where I realized that it's not the physicality but it's the connection with the folks that I'm eating, right? And when I say holding space essentially, that means giving someone your undivided attention because the holding space gets thrown around a lot. What does that mean? It means giving someone your undivided attention to be seen and heard and to feel respect, right? And when I first experienced that you could feel the shift of trust and respect, like some would see that as power. Others would see that as connection, I saw it as connection and there is a power. I meant to trust and respect but that has to be that sacred, that level of vulnerability is safe. And I learned that through the development of the earlier years of my journey through via SMS.

4:40 I am important because I get to hold space for people who trust me and I don't violate your trust as a human being. I try to always do what's right? As a human being, sometimes I felt right? But the big picture of this whole journey and lifestyle, is how do we make? Not only the best choices for us, but the best choices in Integrity, right? How do we aim for doing? What's right? And it's a building block is a building process. It wasn't something that fell into my lap on day one. It was through trial and error. It was still making mistakes. He was trying to use ethics to navigate morality and it isn't. So he's right. It's simple. Always do. What's right? And don't lie tell the truth, but it's not easy, right? Because we have we've been conditioned into shame and fear doubt that sometimes the easier route isn't 100% Integrity. Sometimes it's a white lie or sometimes it's for Mission and not necessarily a direct Miss truth, but ultimately it all. Comes full circle and we end up paying for it. I learned that through reflecting on my relationships right, previous to my investment and commitment to be DSM as a lifestyle.

5:39 And by that, what I mean, is BDSM is a lifestyle. There's an approach, transparency, open and honest Communication open mindedness respect and ultimately truth, but it's like, sometimes you have to touch the iron and sometimes you jump out of The Frying Pan Into the Fire. And sometimes, all you need to do is touch the edge of the frying pan to know. Okay, that's hot enough. I don't need to jump up, but it's all a process. Strained. It's just like, finding the right partner is a process and you don't jump into the lifestyle and expected to be rainbows and sunshine for leather and changing this case, right? It's a lot of power, there is a lot of drama. Wow, so let me get this straight. You were at a younger age, getting involved in addicted to the sensation and then only through your own trial and error experience. You recognize gosh, something is not necessarily working, but I like this lifestyle on a lean into it. And so, in going through Therapy. And going through that reflection, you are able to find a better balance for the way that it can be done in a prolonged lifestyle, which worked for you. And for whomever, you're engaging with, is that right? 100% 100%.

6:45 I got it. Okay. And a lot of people would not necessarily it. It love in the form of VSM. Some do a lot of people think that they're completely separate is that a misconception? Huge misconception. So, a lot of times Saxon, BDSM are intertwined for perspective, right? And I can understand that, because that's what Society puts out there, that's what media puts out there. That's what the internet has all over, but just like anything else. There's a process to getting to that for most people and the process is if I'm going to give you the freedom to experience and play with my body, you have to invest into getting to know me, right?

7:29 Because I will give you the keys to my car. Why would I give you the keys to my body? Now that's a perspective because sometimes inert like myself, my body wasn't seen as value. It was seen as a way to experience, right. There wasn't a threshold of who can experience me, who cannot he was just experience. And when I realized the importance of investment in connection, at the very least, being able to sit down, and tell me your name, tell me about yourself before we move into these intimate parts that you're going to be vulnerable. And there's repercussions from his vulnerability. If it's a positive experience, it grows if it's an Arabic - experience, it tends to make people retract in isolation. So, so, there's also a responsibility in understanding the role that we play in. The people who made this lifestyle through the processes of connection negotiation experiences. It's shown me, the importance of acknowledging, the roles that we play in each other's lives because you can have the fly-by-nights when you can and there's nothing wrong with the right y'all, we all experience what we want when we want no judgment, right?

8:27 At a certain point, I started to feel empty And what could I do to fix that? And it took me a while to realize that it wasn't anything out. It was everything internal and my process and what it was like willing to settle for and what was I not willing to settle? Where once I saw what trust and respect provided in regards to opportunity and relationship? Why would I go back? Why would I go back to the possibility of not being seen and heard? Why would I go back to the possibility of being objectified? Yeah, I can take my time and invest it into people and sometimes if it succeeds, sometimes it felt. But I take my time this long enough. Of to get a sign from my guts, right? Because gut instinct is very powerful. We just put blinders on because sometimes what the gut instinct is telling us is contrary to popular opinion or the short answer to the long problem, right?

9:12 So being able to find intuition and embrace it, this is all part of that process of being able to invest into relationships that are meaningful in the ways that I need. Now, what do you think is the main reason why people are drawn to BDSM in the first place? So I'm going to go back until The movie 50 Shades came out so that was very pivotal moment for the BDSM culture. More American Society for the world society, right? What Fifty Shades did was make it okay to talk about it because I'm a big believer that we all have some everyone has I believe if I have five minutes anyone I can get it out because it's like what we're looking for are associations or not looking for specific actions button. Head spaces of vulnerability and Powers.

9:54 So 50 shades, open the door and allowed it to become conversation. Allowed it to become. Decibel and acceptable to a degree. The internet deeply affected the community to, because what ends up happening is we have a lot of Google experts, think or Internet experts. And there's a difference between learning how to swim by reading a book and learning how to screen by jumping in the water. Yeah, right. And a lot of people have the great knowledge about swimming on out of a book, right? But when you throw them into the water you can see the hesitancy, you can see the nervousness and I'm thankful for the exposure that Fifty Shades gave the lifestyle, because it allowed us to start. Normalizing. The conversation. Now people come into it because we've all done things, when we are younger out of curiosity. We close ourselves off because of Shame Society, culture, religion politics.

10:39 There's a number of things, right? But the closet of Desire starts to fill up and starts to push against the doors. And this what I believe from midlife crisis is when you realize, you get to a point of life that you're not who you thought you were, and you have that inner conflict of something doesn't feel right? I need to find and people go different routes. They go by and houses Selling Houses. Divorce marriage, right? Everett is to bring that instant change to their existence as opposed to looking inward, the saying, what am I not acknowledging about myself? What am I missing from my cell? I think people come into BDSM looking for that, General others, stumble upon it, obvious are seeking certain things from it, but I think a big chunk of it, especially after covid covid-19 other Turning Point people realize how short life is, and it's like, well, now I got to go live. Hello, Kink world.

11:24 I'm here, right. And it's like, they're jumping in head for instance, which is great because shame is difficult to work past. Yeah, by myself, you know, after my second divorce actually, I'll step back and say that, I think that there's always been a lot of experimentation as you were mentioning. It's a lot of curiosity and what about this, what about that? And so, you know, it started probably in my 20s and then you know, after marriages and things like that, I was like, oh, let's try this again. You know, hopped on Bumble found. Somebody was a Dom and I decided to become a sub for a while realized that I'm not sure if it was the lifestyle, or if it was just the jerk that I found, but Putting out that just kidding about that. It could have been a whole number of things. As you were saying, it's really, it's a trial and error situation but I recognized that it wasn't really for me. I released that particular situation was not for me. I didn't like to be you know in the middle of a meeting in the middle of the day and being told what to do you know virtually and it's to be extremely disruptive and I was like, listen dude I just can't you know this is not working for me. I'm what is our safe word?

12:25 You know, this is it, you know? So it didn't last very long but yeah. Yeah, but I was always like, wondering I was like was it just the, you know that I, you know, think I'm just going to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Well, like what does a healthy life, including BDSM look and feel like versus what? Maybe a less healthy life including BDSM. I think a lot of people would be curious as to how to know when they've got it and this is working for them or gosh. This might be a problem. Yeah. No, it's I'm so happy. You said that. I haven't heard that in a while. It's like one folks come in romanticizing, this lifestyle because only God this person's go. Come and shoot me and give me the blah blah blah blah blah and it sounds pretty until it's real life and then he like you're in a meeting at 2:00 and there's any like, send me pictures of your panties. Like no, dude.

13:08 Like I'm busy right now. So it's all about perspective and experience because you have a lot of folks who are coming into this thinking, it's about power powers and element to it. But you also have to be considered a, what the other person has going on in their lives, right? Because this is all make-believe, all of it is make-believe because at any time, if you got up, you dumb out, what am I gonna do? Kidnap, you don't break them. All right, and I'm keeping you against your will number Violating it right? This is completely consensual. My Approach Speedy has a very consensual equal approach, right? Knowing that I'm going to pretend, we're in a dynamic, right? You have your life, I have my, my goal is to help you succeed in and can reach them. Achieve your goals. Your Role is to help me achieve my goals can see live, the best version of my life that I can't and we work as a team, one isn't serving the other. That while there is a power exchange, you have the dominie, have the submissive, we have responsibilities for each other to be the best versions of ourselves. We can't.

14:00 And the way I like to approach it. The way I like to Mentor people into approaching is that it's not about us, independently individual, it's about us coexisting and Cohen depend. I want you to have the best opportunities. I want to be your biggest supporter. I want to make sure you can achieve all of your goals and I will support you every way that I can and your role would be to do the same for me in whatever way that looks. Now, I have five relationships in a polyamorous relationship, like, I don't wish polyamory on my worst enemy because it's work. Right? It's imagine dealing with one person their emotions. I'm dealing with five, right? So it's like sometimes I want to bang my head but the reward is that much greater, right? So my role I have played Mary who is? And they're all dominant windfall of, I enjoy being around confidence.

14:46 It's not a power struggle. Not trying to show you. I'm stronger than you. You're storing the sun. It's not that I'm attracted to the person that you are in your, I can do. I am, I'm strong, I'm able, but I'm looking for connection for someone who sees me as a whole person that That's what I'm looking forward to me. That's my sexual orientation, but I like to call that another section, right? Because there's a mind frame, this in perspective and approach that comes with this lifestyle is open and honest. Communication Integrity respect that. We can go down that list but they have to be present because if they're not present, we're going to play The Guessing Game all the way up and I'm 43. I don't have time for that. I have goals, I have Partners goals. I have children, I have life that I want to experience it and I want to achieve.

15:28 I don't want to manage Get well, not to say, that's not for everybody, for sure stuff. There's people out there who wants to go down to tell him what to wear and all that stuff. And then there's the Dom's. You want to tell the people what's really cool but Define what your goals are, defined, what's important for you so that you can reflect it with the other person because we all have our individual expressions of what dominance and submission look like. But how are we communicating right? There's no common language around that a little bit of background on myself. I'm sorry. I jumped into this lovely. Yeah. No, that's totally fine. I've been doing the lifestyle my journey for a while, like there's different periods of My sexual maturity I can see that. Give me different experiences and understanding about myself. I was rubbing my aunt lakes in nylons at five, right? That was stimulated to me. And my body had responses and that carries on until now a great. I love that great.

16:13 But I started having sex at 12:00, right? Culturally, I was told to be a, man, you have to have a lot of sex, you know, back in the 80s and the 90s part 92. Plus that's why I started doing 91. I think he was, I started to have a lot of sex because that's what I thought was expected but that's not real. It's to be a good lovers. One thing to be a good person, that's a whole different thing, right? And my goal with all of this is to be the best version of myself so I can help you be the best version of yourself so that we can leave a bigger mark on this planet than where we got beautiful. Yeah, with situation that I was mentioning before it got to the point where I think there was a lot of Dom ego in the way we're in this particular situation which ended at all he wanted he like insisted that I be with him and another woman At the same time and I wanted to see pictures. I wanted to feel comfortable with the situation and upon seeing what we would be presented with. I said no, like I just was not interested at all. And he felt that I was defying his orders and so said I release you and relinquish you from your submissive duties and I was like, Hallelujah is really happy to be out of that. So I was like that was not the right connection. That was not the right situation at all. Ya know like comply.

17:29 Science. Because I think about compliance, right? And obedience. And what does that look like? When I'm not going to have people do something? I'm not willing to do myself to, through the process of development of our relationship. I'm going to burn this trust, like the road, the title master. I don't put that on any putter introduce myself. Hi. My name is Joshua and I leave it at that. The title Master. Josh was something I'd like to her in person and I like to earn that through investment in action. I will earn the title, whatever time you give and it also sounds go on the internet. So when people play Master, Josh without comms, get sounds cool for website. But we're all human beings who here knows exactly what's going on. Nobody, everybody's winging it. Some people are a little further ahead and winging it than others, but no one gave us the manual life.

18:10 No one gave us the manual of relationships, knowing gave us the manual of intimacy among many of our other managers. So who are we to say obey, right? It's like have you taken into consideration my reality and the circumstances of and the in the repercussions of our choices? If I'm in a business meeting, I'm not going to get up and tell. Will you forgive him, right? This is my priority at this moment and you have to respect my respect goes so much further than control. Hmm. Fascinating and I love that. You have a course that you are offering, which is called people before Kink and I think that that is so magical. Number one, the name is priceless. And I imagine that the content in it really helps to create and nurture, these kinds of healthier situations for BDSM to thrive. Can you give us a little bit of the highlighter? What you share with your clientele in your courses, solutely.

19:03 So, people before Kink was created. After about 10 years of professional domination. And what I noticed was people would come to me and they say, Joshua, I want to work with. I had a ton of questions to ask because I have to know who you are before. I put my hands on, because I have to understand where you're at, where you've been and where you're going. I think I have a gift in the ability of seeing trajectory within this stuff within this lifestyle. I've been doing it for long enough to say confidently, say I have a clear grasp of what's going Going on when it comes to Media seminar at a person's Journey. So I've spoken to a ton of what ended up coming out about two years ago. Three years ago was an intake for maybe a little more. I have an intake form that's about now, it's about 100 questions. The thing is, I don't want to sit with you for three hours talking to me right now, because I would have to ask you each question, but have to give you the opportunity to go think about it. And then give me the answer.

19:52 And it's pretty lengthy, because I need to understand. Again, your past, your present, your triggers, right potential triggers that you may not even know what because of your past, right? And while we're all different were all very much the same, right? So in that time frame covid him, it was like, what do I do now? Can't work with people because of the proximity. So what do we do? And I created an intensive with my partner called people before Kink and the intention behind that is to empower folks to steer their own Journey. Now, this program is great for people who have a hard time connecting want to connect with Community. Are the people that go into an event will become a wall flowers and don't know what to say, don't understand what the king Journey means. Don't understand where they stand with. In the road, right? So it's a very ground level entry point for the inexperience and for the experience for the veterans, because we also get complacent and comfortable with where we're at, right?

20:39 Whether you're dumb or sub or right. Anywhere within that Spectrum, you find this groove of comfort and you stay in. Now, I'm a belief that we all fall on the Spectrum dominance and submission owns going to be Almighty. Dominant owns going to be Almighty submissive but we all fall into a spectrum with the people we meet. And what happens in that is a natural level of power exchange and chemistry. Right? Do I feel more dominant to this? Do I feel more submissive to this bush and these are things thoughts and feelings that we have to acknowledge internal so people before Kink was created so that we can. There's only also 24 hours a day. I was that tennis elbow shoulder pain from vlogging in spanking and stuff. So it's like that's another reason why I can't do this forever but I want to empower people to do it for themselves. Right to stop relying on other people to fear your experiences, so that you can get the vocabulary to steer your own experiences.

21:25 So you can know what it feels like to hold space and create space for others. Is ultimately, what creating space and Hogan's? Face means is giving someone your undivided attention perspective. That's all it is for people say, holding face, what does that mean? And without judgment, that's a hard and keep your mouth shut, just hold face and let them talk, right? There's the processes. So pbk is for those who have a hard time, connecting don't know how to connect are working through, shame, trying to find others like themselves. Because while we're all very much saying we're all doing our Journeys, we're all at different points of our Journeys. And some of us are willing to say, I don't know, and I need goggles. There's a saying I know everything and then others are up there working, right? So there's a ladder to this, as well and ultimately what I want to do and I just want to empower folks to be able to Define their own existence to forgive themselves for not being who they thought they would be, because that's a hard one, right?

22:16 When you look back in your in their 40s or 50s and 30s is kind of difficult because it's like, we're just becoming adults, right? 20s. And we're like late teenagers, but the 30s is, when you realize, wait a second, this Trivedi is a foot, right? It's like, something's not going. On right? Like that's when we realized everyone is winging it. Everybody's faking like we're faking it. Till you make, it was like well what does that mean? Right. So it's all within that timeframe of I want to understand what life means to me. Yeah, that's fascinating. And before you were mentioning your tennis elbow, I'm getting older and 43 like there seems to have been a little bit of a subconscious clock going on in your mind. I'm just curious, like, how long do you think that this is going to be a big part of your life? Is it going to be a forever thing?

22:57 Do you think that there are certain people that Surely, you know, come into it and then have a certain life cycle and then Edge out of it. Is there a high point or a Tipping Point? The old Diaries, depending on the people and their experiences, this is going to be part of my lifestyle forever because it's process of connections. Not an action is not the way we dress, but it's the way we engage with each other. So I will be engaged in this lifestyle, until I transition Beyond. So I produce events here in the city of do been doing that for about 10 years as well, and we have all types of folks, all along the H Vector that Come in at different points of their lives for my events, because I host the vents that are socially driven by learning experiences, and socially driven, that actually came off the people before Kink intensified. So with the Intensive, the intention behind it is, it starts with an intake that requires you to look Inward and to find the language around the thoughts and the feelings that you've had for extra bottom.

23:49 Here's you come to the retreat. And in the process, the first major class that we have is called people before he came to foundation. And what we're doing is we're creating a container in the program. So No one comes in and out just like it's all of us. We pair you up one-on-one and what you're doing is, you're going to revisit this intake and you're going to share your answers with the person in front of you and they're going to share with you and you're going to hold this container of judgment free and open heartless because the goal of it is to one actualize Your Truth by speak. Because how often do the thoughts come from here and out your mouth into the real world especially about sexual identity. It's not so easy. Because how do we trust the person in front of us? How do we know they're not going to draft us? How do we know they're not going to shame us? Everyone is here at this intensity. Others for the same reason to experience it without judgment without shame right to to push the envelope into vulnerabilities.

24:35 So in the container, we actualize Our Truth by speaking it to the person in front of us and it's not the whole world Granite. There's 15 groups but everyone is so engaged in the conversation, in front of them, everything falls away in that process, you become vulnerable and you get to experience with vulnerability and safety feel like and that's the turning point for me. Say, wow, this is the first time for a lot of people speaking my truth and I'm okay. And I'm listening to what they're saying and they sound just like Me just different experiences. It looks different, but the feeling is the Same Love, shame fear, whatever it is. The feelings are the same even though they looked. So, the important part of that program is community in common outright to see while we all look different, but we all have so many different things going on.

25:16 We're all very much the same. Now, we have a spectrum of people that come within the lifestyle, come to the intensives ranging from 21 up until 90 break because everyone hits different points at a different time. Socially, we are given more permission on the surface. Right? What happens underneath? That is a little different, but we're giving more permission to be ourselves. Especially if you're in more urban, Metropolitan inspect, the lgbtq communities sprawling and like, acceptance is a big thing acceptance. I'll put acceptance because there's a huge glass and ultimately what it is is that I think folks are just looking to experience life wherever and there is no, he's right, there's never a too late. I'm writing a book about my experiences around growth, introspection and professional domination. The life lessons.

25:57 I've learned today. Actually, today, I was talking Converted into a reporter is what if our purpose here on this planet is just to experience without a time to write. And that all of our experiences positive or negative in Port in different, they don't transcend with us. Those are the stories we get to reflect on in the afternoon right? Because they who knows what's happening here, right? So why not run with amazing? That's beautiful. I love that so much. One last thought and that is that I know that a lot of people who come into Kink may or may not have a proclivity to it because of some sort of abuse in their childhood or early years of life. And so they may approach it thinking that they have an affinity to this and it's not necessarily the answer that they're looking for.

26:42 It may actually lead to this cycle of either addiction or something that is not necessarily as healthy. How does one know that when they're stepping into something that it is going to be beneficial and healthy for them versus to a place where Maybe Tips into something that looks a little bit more like addiction. I guess where people would have to start is in tension and this is where the Integrity Maps. Why am I looking to do this? And no one knows you don't have to tell anyone but you have to acknowledge and accept it within yourself. Am I looking for this because of my past? And how am I going to work with the framing trauma? Because ultimately it was, that's reframing trauma, right? And reframing, Trauma isn't satiating, the experience. This is what happened to.

27:24 I want to recreate reframing trauma is changing the cycle of the process, right? I have a Really great example. There was someone I was working with who wanted their haircut Force because as a child, they were a child of the 60s and their parents. It was a male body person and their parents didn't want them to have long hair, because boys don't do that. So, they would shave his head forces and that was traumatic. And in that what happened was he developed a desire to shape women's hair because he had sisters, who were able to grow their own hair? However, long they wanted and they almost flaunted it up. So, out of that resentment, he grew a desire to change that power, fast, forward connected with They have been in a long-term relationship and their role was to see she just finished they let him chavous their head and cutting all this stuff forces. Can I put fortunately in coach because that was the agreement now, however that turned out whatever I don't know because that's years before and stuff that they've experienced as I was explaining.

28:17 This is how it came to be so he sought me out hoping that I can help him work through this but in his mind the working through this was finding the mistress who can teach them and teach them about a haircut over a period of time and then slowly tear and I not with that I said, how does this reframe your tongue? Like if it's just feeding feeding the fetish and I said, how about this? How about if you sat down in my chair and I just took a piece off right away I said that would jar you and where the trauma reframing comes from his if I do a quick strip in your head. You're going to be like, holy shit stop right now that's going to give you your power back because it's not what you wanted triggers as I've come to learn them are emotional and physical responses to maintain control over situation that we had previously lost control in right?

28:57 So my question was how do we Not satiate, your Festival, reframe, your trunk and that's what came into vision. And they were like, I don't know if I want. Well, now you gotta ask yourself what are you doing this? Yeah. Are you doing this? Because you want to heal you doing this because you want to scratch an itch. Oh my God. So brilliantly Illustrated. Thank you so much for that example, Joshua Rodriguez. You are the master. Thank you so much for helping to dispel shame. Thank you so much for being a role model in the work that you're doing. Ying. I'm going to put all of your contact information in the show notes below. I encourage everybody who has a curiosity for BDSM to, please look him up because this could be your Saving Grace and a healthy way to BDSM enjoy.

29:43 Thank you so much. Thank you so much.