Stop Settling! How to Build a Life You Actually Want | Meha Agrawal, ep 232

Jennifer Norman:
We talk a lot about productivity as if the secret to a better life is learning how to squeeze more into it. We constantly ask ourselves, how do I get more done? But rarely do we ask, how do I stay connected to myself while I'm doing it? Ambition and wellbeing are often treated like opposing forces. We're told to hustle if we wanna succeed, slow down if we wanna be well, and then somehow figure out how to live in the impossible space between the two. Well, my guest today has built her career around a different idea that self-awareness, emotional wellbeing, and high performance don't have to compete with each other. In fact, they may be deeply connected. Yes, we can pursue extraordinary things without abandoning ourselves in the process. Today, I'm joined by Meha Agrawal, founder and CEO of Silk and Sonder, a self-care system that brings together guided journaling, coaching, and community support.

Jennifer Norman:
Meha is also part of a very small club. She's among the roughly 2% of female founders who have received venture capital backing. Today, we're going to talk about ambition, burnout, emotional health, journaling, self-awareness, entrepreneurship, and what happens when the person who's accustomed to solving problems realizes that not every problem can be engineered away. So if you are building a company, raising a family, navigating a transition, chasing a dream, or simply trying to feel a little more grounded in your own life, I think there's something in this conversation for you. Let's welcome Meha Agrawal to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast.

Meha Agrawal:
So excited to be here, Jennifer.

Jennifer Norman:
I love having you here. You are a woman after my own heart. Now, before the engineer, the founder, the CEO, and all the accolades, I wanna know, who was Meha growing up? What shaped the way you learned about success?

Meha Agrawal:
Great question. So, I grew up in a South Asian household. My parents immigrated here in the late '80s, and my father is a professor of computer science at the University of California in Santa Barbara, and my mother also worked at the university. So, eldest daughter, first child to immigrant parents, the only route to success was becoming one of 4 things, right? A doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, or academic, and so, that's essentially the path that I pursued, but who I was as a little girl, I think curiosity was just so near and dear to my heart, you know, both culturally, and I think that is something that I take with me as an entrepreneur today. But I remember little Maya before she even knew what success actually was or what it felt like, little Meha just liked to learn and play, right? So 4 or 5 years old, I already was learning my multiplication tables because that's what the high achieving household kind of sets you up for. but I was also playing with my Barbies and looking through books and playing with my pattern blocks. And so at a very young age, there was this ping pong effect from right brain to left brain, right? Being creative, being analytical, being creative, being analytical. And so for me, I didn't know any better, but success really meant higher education.

Meha Agrawal:
It meant receiving gold stars. It meant getting good grades. And so that conditioning was formed at a very early age, for better or for worse, which I'm sure we'll get into later on. Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, and it sounds like your parents came here wanting the American dream and all this opportunity. And so, yeah, they really, I imagine, raised their children hoping the best for them. You became a software engineer, so I'm curious how that landed.

Meha Agrawal:
Yeah, that's a great question, especially with somebody, someone like me who had multiple interests, multiple passions. I mean, even into high school, it was basketball, leadership, robotics, things at opposite ends of the spectrum. I just wanted to do it all. So, Software engineering. I actually ended up studying computer science and business in college, and the reason I chose computer science was because it was the only engineering degree that guaranteed me a ticket into any industry, right? If you wanted to be a biomedical engineer, or if you wanted to be a mechanical engineer, the scope gets narrowed into what types of companies would be made available to you. And so, Mm-hmm. for me, it was kind of my cheat sheet into keeping the options open. And so, That's how I ended up being a software engineer, and I studied computer science and then ended up being a software engineer for companies like Goldman Sachs and Stitch Fix and some of these other kind of companies in, in very different spaces, right? For that reason, because computer science is really just a study of solving problems, and you could really enter any, any, any industry you want from there.

Jennifer Norman:
Would you describe yourself at that time as happy?

Meha Agrawal:
Great question. Absolutely not. So as I had, even though software engineering felt like the safety net, right? It felt also a moment of pride, right? Because at the time, computer science and software engineering was not as popular as it is today.

Jennifer Norman:
Mm-hmm.

Meha Agrawal:
And even when I was in college, I was always trying to apply for the software engineering roles and the product management roles. And there were very few junior product management roles, but I knew very early on that being a software developer was not my calling in the way that the role functions. It's not something that's aligned to how I naturally operate. I'm much more social and collaborative, and it was really geared towards someone who enjoys being behind the screen and debugging things and all of that. So I was happy on the outside because I was working for these companies, so I felt validated in that way.

Jennifer Norman:
Mm-hmm.

Meha Agrawal:
But I definitely had this lingering anxiety or stress or just that feeling of this isn't for you, this isn't for you, but I didn't know what to do.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, I can so relate. When I was younger, I was probably more creative than anything. I went to school as an art major, but then I— something in me said, oh, that's not a wise decision to follow that down because it's a starving artist motif and everything. And so I went into business, and then my very first job out of college was in IT, and I was selling like local and wide area networks, and I felt so constricted. And I felt like I had to almost put on this professional facade that felt so unnatural, like I was just stifled and I couldn't breathe.

Meha Agrawal:
100%.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, yeah. But there was something about needing to prove something about myself in terms of that kind of success and smarts. And something in me felt like, oh, going into art is not smart.

Meha Agrawal:
Yeah, totally.

Jennifer Norman:
For whatever reason. And I don't think that it had necessarily anything to do with my upbringing. I was an adopted child. And so I just think that it was something inherent in me. Like, my parents never discouraged me from anything that I wanted to do. God bless them. It was just something inherent and innate and something that just I felt inside. It was something that I had to prove.

Meha Agrawal:
Yeah. Well, speaking of proving, I think I remember there, the women in my major would slowly drop off year after year. And so my senior year of college, I felt this badge of honor in some ways that, oh, I completed my computer degree, I made it this far. And my father, to his credit, he felt— he's in the industry and he felt that you are capable and you are— you understand this stuff, you are smart, and so you should do this because you can do this, right? And so it was almost proving to myself that I belong here, I have the smarts for it, like you mentioned. But in a way, it's kind of like proving to who, right?

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Meha Agrawal:
Yes, you can surely inspire the next generation of computer scientists and software engineers if that's your calling, but I have so much more than that, right? So, that was the struggle in the early days, much like yours.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, yeah. I remember there was this one time where my mother said, don't go into business, Jenny, you'll hate it. You should be a hairdresser.

Meha Agrawal:
Very different parents, right?

Jennifer Norman:
I know, it was so funny. And then what, lo and behold, I went and got my MBA at Georgetown, and then my very first job out of school was with L'Oréal. So I ended up going into beauty and business, like, and so I was able to combine the two. I was like, you know what, I feel like this is a good blend. It actually suited me very well to work in like a creative, cosmetic, hair color, that sort of thing, but also be able to use the business side. So it really did help to go after both sides of my brain.

Meha Agrawal:
Yeah, definitely. So funny.

Jennifer Norman:
I'm curious, what did you discover about yourself during that time that you think that achievement alone couldn't have taught you?

Meha Agrawal:
Wow, that's a really good question. So I think the memory that comes to mind is when I was working at Goldman, and I remember I was about 10 months in living in New York, and it felt great on the outside that people perceived me as successful, but that feeling of sheer dread waking up in the morning of, ugh, I gotta lug myself to work, and then I would get to work and I would feel antsy. Like, I felt just frustrated by the fact that I was on calls...

Jennifer Norman:
Mm-hmm.

Meha Agrawal:
as an engineer, and I had to deal with these trades. There was a $50 million trade not flowing downstream. And even though I ended up solving it, therefore achieving it, that anxiety that I felt and that frustration and that resentment I felt for whoever built this thing for causing a bug in the first place and it not working and it becoming my problem was just a small example of how every experience started to feel. And then on top of that—

Jennifer Norman:
Mm-hmm.

Meha Agrawal:
I remember that midday slump where no matter what, I would stare at my computer and just feel I'm not productive. I'm not enjoying this. What am I doing here? And having nowhere to go. And that's really what began my first experience into pen to paper and journaling, but I didn't know that's what it was, right? I would literally take my blank notebook and I would take a pen and I would go and solve the problem I was trying to solve on paper because that's how my brain was able to process whatever I needed to do for the day. And then on top of that, I would kind of put some notes or brain dump everything that was giving me a little bit of anxiety and stress. And so achievement alone would've just masked that, right? The pain that I felt. And those types of experiences started to compound, which really broadened my world on self-help and personal growth and purpose and understanding of self. And so I'm grateful that I went through that type of rut and rock bottom, because had I just achieved, achieved, achieved, I would not have had that self-awareness at all and still very much maybe become a— I might have been a managing director by now at Goldman, but you know.

Meha Agrawal:
Different, different paths.

Jennifer Norman:
Totally different paths. Yeah, I wanna pause for a moment because I think that there are some things that the audience can reflect on right now because when you're young, a lot of people tell you, oh, work hard now so you don't have to work so hard later. You can play later. Do your time now. Take your lumps now. Learn. You're like, yeah, don't worry about what you're passionate about. The thing that you really need to do is just earn a lot right now while you're young and you can do it and that sort of thing.

Jennifer Norman:
Yes, and there comes a time where if it is causing you so much anxiety and dread and resentment, it's affecting your mental health and it is affecting you and your personality and your wellbeing. That is a definite sign that you're in misalignment. If you can tolerate it because, you know, they call it work for a reason, you hear that too. You're getting paid for it. It's not supposed to be fun. All of those things that you do hear, yes, they may be true to a certain degree, but if you are physically sick, like if you are dreading and feeling absolutely awful, or the people around you are just, you have anxiety about your boss, you have anxiety about your colleagues, it's just not a good environment for you, get out. Like just like run, run away, like do something or run towards something, shall I say.

Meha Agrawal:
Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
I think that's a better way to put it. Because that's not something that you should learn to live with. I think a lot of times we dim and dull those signs that are talking to us and trying to tell us if something is absolutely not right for who you are and what you are about, especially if it's values-based. Like if a company that you're with does not align with your values, that's a very, very difficult situation to be in. And it's almost as if you are a rose planted in the desert. There's nothing wrong with the rose and there's nothing wrong with the desert, but you just don't— they're not compatible. You need a different environment.

Meha Agrawal:
Okay.

Jennifer Norman:
So let's see. Okay. I want to move on to this whole concept of self-care because self-care these days has become so commercialized and sometimes it can mean almost anything like a candle or a face mask or a vacation. What does real self-care mean now that you're a new mom and that you have this amazing business called Silk and Sonder?

Meha Agrawal:
Yeah. So self-care to me is living in alignment with who you are and what brings you joy. And some days that means you get 5 minutes for self-care and other days you get hours, but true self-care is refusing to abandon who you are and what lights you up. And so in practice, what that looks like for me is being highly, highly aware of what my core values are personally, and knowing exactly how to fill each of those core values. So for example, when I think about my authentic self, and it's funny because you mentioned Silk and Sonder, and recently I realized so much of my own personal core values are Naturally embedded into the business and what types of products we create around it. But for me personally, I use four words: growth, beauty, connection, and creation. And so when I talk about self-care, it's figuring out what are the routines, rituals, practices that fall into one of those four buckets and sometimes multiple buckets. And when I say yes to more of that, I am saying yes to more self-care.

Meha Agrawal:
So that's at a meta level. Obviously, I think at a much smaller level. Again, it's doing the activities that are aligned with my core values. That to me is a practice of self-care.

Jennifer Norman:
Hmm, I love that. Was there a personal need or frustration that ultimately became the seed for Silk and Sonder?

Meha Agrawal:
Oh, absolutely. So like I mentioned, being a software engineer, definitely not my calling. And so what did I do? Every 2 years I would rip the bandaid off and put another bandaid instead of healing the actual wound, right? Which is look deeper. What is your purpose? What are your gifts? What are you destined to be? Who are you destined to be? And somewhere in my mid-20s, mid to late 20s, by this point, I had already gone through my first major rock bottom. I dealt with major breakup, my first breakup, which felt very dramatic at the time and required healing. And then I moved from New York impulsively to California, back home. And I was like, oh my God, what did I just end up doing for a high achiever that is not used to living in back in the place where they grew up? So I'd already kind of I had been through that. I had picked myself back up.

Meha Agrawal:
I had applied to grad school. I'd gotten into grad school. I had applied to Stitch Fix at the time. I had gotten it, gotten the offer from Stitch Fix. And so I decided to move to San Francisco. And so finally my life looked like I had picked up all the pieces and I built myself back up, right? And at this point, I'm in my mid to late 20s. I was dating my then boyfriend, now husband. Stitch Fix was on the verge of going public and I was living in a new city.

Meha Agrawal:
I had plenty of friends. I was in the best shape of my life. Everything was going great, but I was of course still a software engineer. So what was happening was I was waking up every morning feeling underfulfilled, ungrateful, kind of that humming, like that quiet, that quiet burnout.

Jennifer Norman:
You know what I mean?

Meha Agrawal:
It's that under-challenged burnout where you are not lit up by the work that you're doing. You're not living in your purpose.

Jennifer Norman:
Hmm.

Meha Agrawal:
And so you feel burned out in a different way, right? You might not be exhausted working 15 hours a day, but even 2 hours a day working on the wrong thing is quietly depleting you.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Meha Agrawal:
And so that was when the alarm went off for me because I'm like, wow, I've created this facade that looks fantastic. But even with the safety nets, even with the gold stars, even with all these checkboxes being checked, if I'm not feeling good at the inside and I'm still waking up a little anxious, that means that something's gotta change. And I didn't have the vernacular that I have today, right? So I didn't know that it was a misalignment of core values. But what I did know was that at the time therapy felt intimidating to navigate. Coaching was expensive and not as popular as it is today. Self-help books lacked the accountability. I was nowhere near in the spiritual space the way that I am now. So meditation felt very boring.

Meha Agrawal:
And so grudgingly, I brought pen to paper. I started to marry all the learnings I was having from these personal development books and research and frameworks coupled with positive psychology and therapy techniques. And I started to create this mini ritual for myself. And I noticed, wow, just by spending 5 minutes pen to paper every single morning consistently, I was noticing this magical shift to my emotional health because science doesn't lie, right? And so that was the beginning of the seeds for Silk and Sonder because I started to realize, wow, it's not just me. There's plenty of other women who are experiencing overwhelm, stress, anxiety, lack of purpose. They have all these similar issues around feeling stuck or lost. What if there was a guided experience that was rooted in science but powered by community? Because as women, we really thrive, right? When you have a problem, what do you do? You call up a girlfriend and chat through it, right? Why was there nothing like this when it came to daily mental wellbeing and growth, right? And I think that is, that became the mission of Silk and Sonder. How do you provide a proactive ritual that's easy, effective, and fun rather than work that helps you feel alive again, feel like yourself again? And so I was in my own journey and that's what led to the formation of Silk and Sonder.

Jennifer Norman:
How cool. A lot of people are now familiar with the benefits of things like meditation, breathwork, and of course, journaling, it's so powerful when you do put pen to paper. Why do you think that that's not enough? Why do you think that the, the guided part of it and the community are enhancements for somebody's well-being?

Meha Agrawal:
Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I lived it, right? I looked at a blank piece of paper in my journal and felt intimidated not knowing what to start or what to say or how to carry on my day. I think whenever there is a piece of friction in the process of healing or getting product— feeling productive, no one's gonna do it. It's very, very hard to create a habit, right? It's like a cold start problem. And so I lived it. But then I also realized that guided journaling gives you a starting point. But then having community allows you to learn from others. There's so much cathartic power in sharing, right? Why do people listen to podcasts?

Meha Agrawal:
Why do people want to go to a group fitness class. There's something about a shared experience, even if our individual experiences look different, and there's always something to give and something to gain. And so in the early days of Silk and Sonder, it was less about have you and I lived the exact same experience and more about Jennifer sharing something that I could actually offer some support around or cheerleading around, or just providing that kind of human connection that helps motivate you, right? So in both instances, community and the fact of the format being guided, it helps us with the accountability structure that is entirely missing from the self-help personal growth ecosystem.

Jennifer Norman:
Okay. I want you to get into details now because I'm sure people are very intrigued about, okay, this sounds interesting. How does it work? What do I do? What do I need to do to start? Tell us like literally step by step how somebody begins and what they can expect.

Meha Agrawal:
How somebody begins specific to Silk and Sonder? Okay, perfect.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Meha Agrawal:
So one thing, one phrase just for those that really like science, science tells us that by writing something down, writing your goal down, you increase your chances of achieving it by 65%. When you meet with a group regularly, that number shoots up to 95%. And so that, knowing that, that is really what allows Silk and Sonder's program to be super effective. So the way to get started is you would just go to silkandsonder.com and you would start with our monthly reset program, which includes a guided journal. It has a new theme every single month. And so novelty, It really helps boost motivation. It helps you build skills in different areas of your life because something is new every month. There's something to look forward to every month.

Meha Agrawal:
So it really keeps the momentum high. In the journal, you have pages that are geared for reflection, intentional goal setting, habit tracking, mood tracking, sleep tracking, all of your healthy habits. Those are all in a guided format. And then you have the planning section. So where you can feel very organized on how you break down your monthly goals into actionable steps or habits that need to get done for the month. Every month you reflect and reset. And what's beautiful about the Silk and Sonder program is just by joining us, you get access to all of our live classes and events that are led by Silk and Sonder trained facilitators. And they, very much like a group fitness class, they help guide you through the exercises and you get to see how other people are using it.

Meha Agrawal:
People are sharing their progress in the chat. And so it really becomes like the gym is your journal, the community socials are like your group fitness classes. And then we most recently launched what we call Sonder Coach, which is kind of like your personal trainer. So we will have you take a ton of assessments across Human Design, Myers-Briggs, Enneagram, saboteurs, cognitive distortions, and distill that down into a blueprint of who you are and how your beliefs have been formed and what your strengths are and what your blind spots might be. And then we give you an actionable daily plan that you can use to have faster results in whatever change you're seeking. And so that's really how the program works as a whole.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow, that is a really fascinating concept. I think that there's something in it for everyone. Because if you just want to journal, I mean, you can pick up any piece of paper and pen and journal, and that is beautiful, and that may be all you need, and that's lovely. It sounds like there is an opportunity to enhance personal development, well-being, growth, especially connection.

Meha Agrawal:
Yes.

Jennifer Norman:
Because there's so much news around that today because we've become such an isolated society. And so just stepping out of that comfort zone of, oh, I can just do this on my own time, but like, intentionally doing this so that you can meet some like-minded people who are also in the vein of self-care and personal development and growth and wellbeing is a wonderful place to be where you do have positive thinkers, people that are really interested in just moving themselves and the world forward in a wonderful way. And success, however anybody wishes to define it, does require a certain set of goals and it's the awareness of it.

Meha Agrawal:
Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
It's the writing it down, the intentionality. It's the accountability buddies, things like that. And then the actions. And that's where a lot of people do fall down. And so if you are looking to have a ritual that is journaling-based, and then this also sounds like you've got your personal or group coach kind of built into—

Meha Agrawal:
Exactly.

Jennifer Norman:
The whole ecosystem, which is super, super cool. It really sounds like you're getting so much value out of this in terms of anything that you want to dip your toe into and discover, you certainly can. And then you can continue down. Yeah. For as much as you want. I really enjoy that.

Meha Agrawal:
Yeah, absolutely. You, you articulated it beautifully. That's exactly the goal. And ultimately, why do we have all these pieces of accountability? It's because self-help shouldn't feel self-navigated, right? There's so much out there where we can really benefit from the guided structure, but keeping it flexible enough to make your own.

Jennifer Norman:
I like that you said that because there is this balance that we're trying to succeed and we wanna be ambitious. We want to have purpose and improve improve and get to that next level, but we don't wanna abandon ourselves and just lose sight of what's really important. And so there's this beautiful middle ground, which is so hard to strike sometimes.

Meha Agrawal:
Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
You know, there's days where we're gonna be over on the left, days where we're on the right, and very seldom are we like smack dab right in the middle. And I'm like, my life is totally perfectly balanced. No, no one really says that. So a lot of people tend to be uncomfortable with rest and we can intellectually believe that we deserve it and we still feel guilty when we're not producing. It's, we get into of these interesting issues with respect to trying to have enough so that we feel comfortable. And that is a form of wellbeing. And then also resting and not being lazy, which is, which can be also a form of wellbeing. And so, yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
And we guilt ourselves either which way that we—

Meha Agrawal:
Totally.

Jennifer Norman:
That we can. Yeah. How do you think that somebody can get to that place of pure, beautiful balance? And really just feel that most of their life is spent in this fashion rather than depleting themselves or feeling like they're not living up to their potential?

Meha Agrawal:
So I think the reality is in order for you to understand what self-abandonment means and how it feels, you have to become incredibly aware, right? You have to become aware of your emotions. So when you are feeling any negative emotion, guilt, shame, fear, scarcity, anxiety, anything that feels negative at large, that is typically because you have some self-limiting belief or issue happening and you are living out of alignment with those values that we talked about earlier. And so first get aware of the emotion, right? Then you know that you are at risk of abandoning yourself. Second, start to notice what you're saying yes to and what you're saying no to. Most of us say yes out of habit, right? And in saying yes to others, we might be abandoning what we actually want to do, you know, whether that's something that we wanna do for ourselves or our families or whatever it might be. So one of my favorite tools to really figure out, am I at the right place or am I abandoning an area of my life, is the Wheel of Life exercise. So ranking 10 to 11 different areas of your life, and then you can very visually and easily see, because emotions can be a little tricky, right? So you want something concrete that you can see.

Jennifer Norman:
Can you describe what those 10 or 11 areas are?

Meha Agrawal:
Yeah, sure.

Jennifer Norman:
Wheel of Life. Wow.

Meha Agrawal:
Wheel of Life. Yeah, it's one of my favorite exercises. If you're a Silk and Sonder member, you would get this once every 3 months in your journal, and then it's accessible all the time in our Sonder Coach offering. But the Wheel of Life, or what I like to call the life audit, it has career, wealth, health, relationships, community, romance, personal— I think purpose and spirituality, home environment, and then one or two others. I also like to include parenthood for anybody that is a parent because really becoming self-aware on how fulfilled you feel in each of those categories of life, and just by writing the number down, or if you have the wheel, you know, shading the colors, you'll visually see which areas of your life are getting neglected, right? And there are seasons of life where you— a category is just not a priority. But most of the time, there's at least 5, 6 areas that need to be nourished. And when they're malnourished, that is your signal. That you are abandoning yourself.

Meha Agrawal:
And so from there, we have to get into the practicality of what do I need to fill my cup in these areas? Or what is that small action I can take? I think so many of us are so fixated on the big outcome goals, but what about the small rituals that you can do daily or weekly that slightly improve that area, right? So if romance is very low for you, even though you love your husband to pieces, maybe that means just committing to a date night once a month. Maybe that It means telling him one thing you appreciate about him every day. You know, there's small things like that that start to compound over time. And then you start to realize you're not abandoning yourself because you are starting to pour into an area of your life that matters to you. So I think at the end of the day, in order to figure out if you are truly in alignment and you don't have yet the tools to understand your exact values, the Wheel of Life is, or the life audit exercise is one of the most, the simplest ways to do it.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, very cool. So people can go onto Silk and Sonder, and this is something that they can do on their own, or is it something that's part of a membership that they will be able to do?

Meha Agrawal:
Great question. Yeah, we actually do have a printable around this. So Jennifer, maybe we can include that in the show notes.

Jennifer Norman:
I'd love to. Yes. Yeah.

Meha Agrawal:
So I can, I can have my team send that over, but yeah. And then essentially if you join Sonder Coach, we even calculate your emotional quotient.

Jennifer Norman:
Nice, nice. Now you offer this kind of coaching. When do you think it's appropriate for somebody to have a coach versus a therapist?

Meha Agrawal:
Ooh, that's a great question. And part of the reason I, I actually built our AI-powered Sonder Coach, because I feel like even though there's immense value from a human coach, human therapist, or human advisor, it's hard to find someone that can kind of do everything.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Meha Agrawal:
I think of therapy and therapy adjacent, therapist adjacent offerings as healing the root, right? Like really uncovering, shedding, trying to find the patterns and labeling that and really being willing to go deep before you can rise back up.

Jennifer Norman:
Good therapy will do that. Good therapy will do that. But not so good therapy won't, it'll just keep you talking.

Meha Agrawal:
Exactly. And, and that was one of my frustrations because I I remember when I was, you know, every time I've even, even years into this work, whenever I'm feeling stuck, therapy or coaching, they sound enticing, but finding the right therapist or a coach is a process by itself.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh yeah, it's a process in itself. Yeah.

Meha Agrawal:
And then coaching, I think the benefit is they're truly like a coach, like a sports coach, right? Where they're not gonna always give you, I mean, in fact, they probably will not give you the answers because you are playing your own game, but they will help train you to be able to make decisions for yourself or get clarity on things. things and, and start to do that. And I think there's a gap there, to be honest, Jennifer. And that's the gap that I'm trying to fill with Silke and Sonder's coaching platform, um, which is not a human coaching. It is AI-powered coaching insights every single day. But it's designed in a way where we actually just give you the advice. Because you know what, as a high-performing, ambitious woman especially, you are exhausted. You don't want, you know, you don't want to be asked, so what does that mean? Or what do you think about that? Where do you think that comes from? That there's a time and place for that, but Sometimes you just want someone to give you a homework exercise or tell you what to do so that you can feel instantly better.

Meha Agrawal:
Same frustration I had with my coaches. Where are they in between my sessions? That's when things are happening and I need help navigating this, and I want to do it in a way that's natural to my wiring and not just cookie-cutter advice. And they're not paid to do that, right? And so there's place for every modality, but every modality, including, you know, Silk and Sonder, falls short in their own ways. And so you kind of have to have this self-care buffet of sorts that you kind of pick and choose from. But the main difference I would say is that coaches are kind of looking ahead and giving you the advice you need to be able to make decisions yourself. And I think therapy is like understanding the root, if you get a good therapist.

Jennifer Norman:
Exactly. And, and I think people can have both, or they can choose what feels right for them.

Meha Agrawal:
Totally.

Jennifer Norman:
Therapy. And then you talk about psychologists, psychiatry, and all that, and those that will be able to write scripts for you and things like that. And so they are so Sort of along a continuum to a certain degree. And I know that you were talking about that gap. The personal coach can be more career-oriented and therapy can get to a root cause, which can then ultimately help you to get to a better place in career and making decisions and whatnot, as can psychotherapy and other kinds of modalities such as those. Coaching is really very popular now. There are so many different kinds of coaches. There are women's coaches, men's coaches, ones that talk to just entrepreneurs, ones that just talk to parents.

Jennifer Norman:
There's as many as you you can find. What do you think is really special about the ones that you do have with Silk and Sonder? What do they offer that you really can't find anywhere else?

Meha Agrawal:
Yeah, so I think Silk and Sonder's personalized coaching platform, what makes it utterly unique is that we can give you instant clarity into who you are, how you're hardwired, what your limiting beliefs are, what patterns we notice about you in a way that is just impossible for a human to do by themselves, right? Even the most talented folks, like you mentioned, they might be very good in one specific domain or a couple different domains, but through technology, we are able to actually ask you a series of questions and then be able to identify certain things. And so, that is definitely unique. I think the second piece is going back into the action-oriented nature of Silk and Sonder, right? So, we understand that you can come to us with a problem, some issue that you're facing or something that's bothering you. You can just brain dump into our platform. We ask you the right guiding questions in a way, again, it takes time for a human to process and sift, and they're gonna apply whatever framework they're used to applying. to their clients versus we are adapting it to you and based off of what you said. And then from there, we ask you a couple more questions and then we're able to kind of understand how, what does Jennifer, given her blueprint of who she is, what tone does she need to be spoken to? How is she motivated? And then we can give you like personalized daily self-care prescriptions based off of that. So yours is gonna look different than mine because we're two very different people.

Meha Agrawal:
I think that was one of the frustrations I had with any expert I would see. They are great in terms of whatever I'm like, if it's something very specific, but the holistic nature was missing. I sometimes would come in reminding them I'm an Enneagram this, I have these saboteurs, I tend to catastrophize, and I, at a certain point, why am I telling you? You should be able to read me and give me the personalized guidance that I need.

Jennifer Norman:
Mmm.

Meha Agrawal:
So that's really what makes us unique. But again, we aren't supplying human coaches. We are a platform that provides almost guided personal coaching in a way that is available 24/7.

Jennifer Norman:
How cool.

Meha Agrawal:
In my work that I do, both in— for corporate workshops and leadership offsites, I try to bring some of my own theses around understanding people's tendencies on how they self-sabotage at work and at home. And Jennifer, I think you mentioned this, coaching oftentimes leans career, executive coaching, professional coaching. And I think what a lot of employers get wrong is we are not different people at home woman at work. We are human at the end of the day.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Meha Agrawal:
And so, it's very important for employers to understand that people are bringing their personal selves to work. And if we can't gift them the awareness of understanding what they need personally and professionally, you don't see the productivity impact or the retention impact that you're looking for.

Jennifer Norman:
And I think only a select few chief people officers really understand that intellectually to be able to invest in. Let's shift gears and speak about investment for a moment, because you are among the very small percentage of female founders who have received venture funding. So, congratulations. I think that a lot of women feel the glass ceiling tremendously. Even still, you'd think that we would be beyond this in 2026, but we're not. They feel like there's— it's almost like an impossible ask to say, I wanna ask for money for my business, and they don't have the confidence. They don't feel that they will be taken seriously. So many things. What did you have to understand about power and confidence and self-advocacy to walk into rooms where the odds were statistically stacked against you?

Meha Agrawal:
What always gave me confidence— actually, this is a great tie back into abandoning self, because when I started to go through the fundraise process in a way where I was letting other people's views of the world, right? People were always reminding me, oh, you're a female founder, it's gonna be really tough. It was really hard. You know, they were, they were sharing their stories. Then there were others, a lot of my male founder friends who were like, what? You have to create a data room for this early stage? I never had to do that. Are you— you should tell them that you don't wanna do it. You know, so everyone was giving me their own advice. Some people were like, it's a numbers game. You have to run it this way.

Meha Agrawal:
Just talk to everybody. And I remember pausing and thinking, you know what? I wanna run this process my way. You know, so that meant getting crystal clear on why I was fundraising in the first place, because Silk and Sonder could have operated like a lifestyle business, right? But I realized that what I was building was life-changing and I wanted to have as much impact as possible. So Silk and Sonder as an entity deserved the capital investment to be able to scale and reach bigger audiences. So really getting clear on your why. I have friends who have fundraised because of ego. They wanna fundraise because they have a pedigree background and they wanna be a founder, and then they end up closing their businesses because that wasn't actually what they truly wanted.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Meha Agrawal:
For me, it was less about being an entrepreneur and more about, I'm obsessed with this problem I'm solving. I'm solving it in a difficult but unique way. and it's working. And so I want more women to fall back in love with themselves and I wanna create the actionable path to get there. So that gave me confidence because I had, I was tying it back to purpose and I was fundraising not out of ego. Second was I kind of told everyone, hey, screw off. Like I'm gonna run my process my way, which means I don't wanna be on the phone with like random people all the time pitching and then just get a teeny tiny percentage saying yes. I started to look at the, the investors that were leaning in and I noticed a pattern around them.

Meha Agrawal:
I'm like, oh, these are mostly XYZ traits and they've done ABC, and so I'm going to find more of these folks so my chances for converting them goes up. So I started to run the process again my way, and both in dating and in fundraising, I realized, you know, I'm not somebody who's a numbers game girl, so I— why would I do that? It feels so inauthentic, right? And then third is really getting comfortable with rejection by realizing feedback is feedback. You don't have to go and implement. And that was super important as an Asian American where someone critiquing your business, this is not school. You don't need to go back and like resubmit the assignment to them. You're done. You can move on to the next one and you can take the learnings and improve your pitch. So really getting comfortable with the learning. And then last was what is fun about fundraising? Because fundraising felt like a drag for me.

Meha Agrawal:
So I had to really make it fun by realizing, wow, at the very least I'm meeting smart people who are giving me their time of day and I'm learning a thing or two about how this process works. And so really just like trying to enjoy it. And that became authentic, right? And it all goes back to not abandoning your true self in any season of life that you're in. There's a way to make those challenges work for you. And for me, it was quieting the noise, being in my lane, and being authentic to how I wanted to run things and who I am and being myself. The pitches where I was myself and prepared the least are the ones that I was able to close the deal.

Jennifer Norman:
Well, congratulations again. And all of that is just incredible, incredible advice and a blueprint blueprint for so many people to really believe in themselves, know that it's not about you, it is about the mission. And if you are into having a large impact on mass market, for example, then you need funding unless you're extremely wealthy, just personally and with a silver spoon in your mouth, whatever. It'll require funding and it is definitely an interesting way to go. So don't sell yourself short. Don't sell the idea short when so many people could be benefiting from what you have to offer.

Meha Agrawal:
Yeah. Yes.

Jennifer Norman:
So yeah, don't be afraid. It's really, I think to your point, once you're so passionate about the idea, it kind of speaks for itself. It kind of creates a life of its own and people can feel that energy and that excitement and they can see it's almost as if it's already alive and it's already out there. They can see the future of where this can go, especially one that's tech-based like yours is. And, you know, in a certain degree it's tech-based. And so there's just so much potential for people to really benefit from it and for revenue streams and all all of that and expansion. Yes, I definitely think if you've got an idea, especially in the wellness space or in the personal development space, sometimes I think, do we really need another beauty product? Do we really need another cosmetic product? You know, it's like coming from the beauty industry myself, it's just like, do we really need another XYZ? It's like, you know, look at the market trends, look at what's— what— where people are right now. People are really starved for connection.

Jennifer Norman:
People are very lonely. People have a lot of mental health concerns, especially young people...

Meha Agrawal:
Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
with social media and all of that, there's a lot of fear and just the unknown swirling. And so bringing people a sense of peace overall and totally just that sense of calm inside so that they're not anxious, so that they're not depressed, so that they can do these things naturally and see the light and just enjoy the present moment so much more than they are today. That's, it's a beautiful offer and it's a beautiful opportunity.

Meha Agrawal:
Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
I'm curious, what do you think that investors still misunderstand about female founders?

Meha Agrawal:
How much we love to make money. I think, I truly think that because a lot of us are solving problems from the heart and we appear passionate.

Jennifer Norman:
Like we wanna run a charity.

Meha Agrawal:
Yeah. Like I think, I think some investors maybe still see some of the problems that we're solving as charity cases, but women control 86% of household spend. And I— every female founder that I've met wants this abundant life full of wealth and expansion. And none of us are playing this game to play it small.

Jennifer Norman:
Mm.

Meha Agrawal:
And second, I would say, is female founders are 100% from even female investors and male investors. We are never just evaluated on our potential or the potential of our businesses. We are also evaluated on the proof. that we've created, which is 100% a double standard. But my advice to every female founder out there is deal with the cards you're dealt. We're in a certain time, we're making progress, we are improving. Let's not have a pity party. Let's break through those glass ceilings and be grateful that we're being evaluated for proof and potential, because with proof, you are proving to yourself that this business has the bones to succeed.

Meha Agrawal:
So I was walking in with a financial model and all my male founder friends were like, you don't need to build that. Don't build it. It's a waste of time. Like, you shouldn't have to do it. Guess what? The business is still standing because I have the basic understanding of how to build a financial model and actually track the numbers so that I feel safe while building this business. So I think when things feel unfair, it's really important for us to channel that innovative spirit within us and accept the circumstances and then push past it because it's just an excuse.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Meha Agrawal:
Otherwise, and you're only holding yourself and the rest of the women back by not believing that you can do it and doing it in the way that we kind of have to do it right now.

Jennifer Norman:
So true. Okay, I have to ask the question, DEI. Here we are, women of Asian descent. It's so interesting. I could speak for days on this topic, clearly, but I'm just curious about your perspective on where DEI is today.

Meha Agrawal:
I don't know. I'm one of those people, Jennifer, where I kind of quiet the noise around me. So, I know a lot of people are upset about the DEI situation, but for me, I play in my lane. I swim in my lane. I control the things that I feel like I can control. And by being a South Asian woman, starting a business, being a solo technical female founder of color, I'm naturally going to be solving problems that impact not just the masses, but also underserved communities. I am probably going to be hiring people like that just naturally. Because there's commonalities.

Meha Agrawal:
So for me, I don't know if I have a particular opinion on where it's at today. All I think that we can do a better job of is learning to— like, even Silk and Sonder, I think what I've created, it helps us realize that we're more alike than we are dissimilar. And you should be inclusive. You should be giving opportunities and creating products that impact everybody. And I think when you work in an industry like mind that's very human forward. I don't know, we don't really— I mean, DEI is just, it's part of the norm. Like, it's, I don't see the difference. I think for me, in terms of like politically what's going on, I feel like it's not something that I personally can control at the level and scale that I wish I could.

Meha Agrawal:
So I'm just going to do my contribution to society to help move us forward as a unit.

Jennifer Norman:
But yeah, yeah, no, thank you so much for that response. That's amazing. Oh my goodness, Meha, so many fascinating insights from you. At the end of my podcast episodes, I always ask the same 3 common questions. There's no right answers, it's just whatever feels true for you today. My first question to you is, what makes you beautiful?

Meha Agrawal:
My heart and ability to connect with people regardless of who they are and where they come from.

Jennifer Norman:
Nice. What does it mean to be to be human?

Meha Agrawal:
These are really good questions, by the way. To be accepting of yourself and others.

Jennifer Norman:
Love that. And the last question, what's one truth that you live by, if you had to choose just one?

Meha Agrawal:
Never settle for less than you deserve, because then you'll get even less than what you settled for.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow, what a great truth. I haven't heard that one. It's like, you're like a good negotiator.

Meha Agrawal:
I mean, honestly, recording this episode, I'm like, maybe I should practice what I preach once in a while, you know? I'm like, let's get after that money. Let's do another round. Let's do it.

Jennifer Norman:
There you go. We're in manifestation mode now. Well, Meha, I just want to thank you so much. I appreciate so much this conversation because it does seem like a reminder that caring for ourselves doesn't have to mean becoming less ambitious. I think that the deeper invitation is to change where our ambition comes from. Not necessarily, I need to accomplish this so I can finally feel worthy, but I know I'm worthy. And from that place, what do I want to create?

Jennifer Norman:
Just like those 4 aspects of self-care that you talked about: growth, beauty, connection, and creation. I just love that. I've written them down and I'm gonna commit them to memory. Love it. Love it. Yeah, I think that there's such a difference between building a life while constantly trying to prove ourselves and building one while remaining connected to ourselves.

Meha Agrawal:
Yes.

Jennifer Norman:
And yeah, I think that's one of the most meaningful measures of success, not simply that we've accomplished something, but whether we recognize the person that we have become along the way.

Meha Agrawal:
Absolutely.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. So beautiful humans, you can learn more about Meha at mehaagrawal.com and explore Silk and Sonder at silkandsonder.com. You can find her on Instagram, LinkedIn, TikTok, and X. To Everybody who's listening, if you liked this episode, please do subscribe, follow, share your comments. We love to hear from you. It helps our humble podcast grow. Thank you so much for spending time with us today. I'm Jennifer Norman, and this is The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. I'll see you in the next episode.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you for listening to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Be sure to follow, rate, and review us wherever you stream podcasts. The Human Beauty Movement is a community-based platform that cultivates the beauty of humankind. Check out our workshops, find us on social media, and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more at thehumanbeautymovement.com. Thank you so much for being a beautiful human.