Episode 65: Nora Livingstone - Have An Amazing International Animal Experience

0:07 Hello beautiful humans. Welcome to the Human Beauty Movement Podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Norman. Throughout my life I've been a lover and a seeker of all things beauty. But through my own personal journey, I've come to discover what I believe is the most beautiful thing in the universe, The beauty of the human Soul. On this podcast I. It down with beautiful humans from all corners of the globe and all walks of life to learn how they are living their own unique soul beauty out loud. This is the podcast where abundant energy flows and supreme wisdom is bestowed. Get ready to enjoy the inspiration. Hello beautiful Humans.

0:50 I'm Jennifer Norman, founder of the Human Beauty Movement and your host. This podcast thrives on your support, so if you like what you hear, follow us, rate us, review us, and share this episode with everyone you know across your networks. So I have a few questions for you, dear listener. Do you love to travel? Do you love animals? Do you love making a difference? If you answered hell yeah to any of these questions, then you're gonna love today's episode. My guest is Nora Livingstone. The CEO and cofounder of Animal Experience International. Her organization empowers animal lovers, students, professionals, and adventure seekers everywhere to travel and make a difference by volunteering with animal conservation programs all over the world. Nora's work has personally taken her to over 45 countries including Oman, Sierra Leone, Guatemala, and Mongolia to name a few.

1:46 Welcome, Nora. Oh, thank you so much. For having me, Jennifer. Nora, I am completely intrigued by you and your work, so you have to tell me about your back story and how you came up with the idea for Animal Experience International. Yeah, well, I would love to say that it was all my idea, but it was mostly Dr. Heather Reed. She's my business partner. I was so lucky to travel a lot when I was a kid. I grew up as a military brat. My dad was in the Canadian army, and so we moved every three years. I got really itchy feet. Always been on the road and when I graduated university I was really lucky that I was able to spend a bit of time travel volunteer in a few different countries.

2:30 And when I came back to Canada, I started as a volunteer coordinator at a wildlife center and I was getting people to volunteer and I was telling people all about the adventures that I had when I was in Thailand and Nepal and Korea, volunteering and talking about ethical volunteering after I left the wildlife. Center, where I worked with Dr. Heather Reid, she sort of just pitched this idea of like, what if we did this as a business? What if we got people to volunteer ethically? We figured out really great placements for them. We found really great volunteers for these amazing organizations. And I said, like, how hard can that be? Let's do it.

3:10 So that was in 2011. And yeah, we have been growing ever since, which is an incredible dream to be honest. And so tell us about Animal Experience International. Like, what is it involved? Like if somebody were to be interested, you know, they're Animal curious, Experience curious and international curious. What? Do they do? And what does it mean? Yeah. So one of the things that I love about AEI is the fact that anyone can volunteer. So my background is in humanities. I have no business doing animal things. And that is where most of our volunteers come to love animals as well.

3:51 They have a background that isn't in veterinary medicine, it isn't in vet techery or things like that. But they have a heart for animals, They have a heart for service, and so we definitely have medical places. But most of our placements are making sure that the local staff members, our centers are able to keep their professional roles. And so we have vets and techs and scientists that are local that are at the centers before we're there. They're at the centers when we're there and they're at the centers when we leave. So we're never taking professional roles. We're not taking away jobs in local community. And we're also making sure that all of the programs are for the local community. It's not a. People who are, you know that look like me assist hat white Canadian going to another country and saying this is how you help animals.

4:40 I don't know how to help animals everywhere. So it's a lot of listening. And so our placements are so amazing because it's everything from wildly for Hibilitation in Guatemala to Elephant Sanctuary work in Thailand, the wild horse conservation in Mongolia and everything the volunteers are doing is very transferred. Growable. So if you are volunteering at a wildlife center in Guatemala, you're doing feeding, cleaning, enrichment, and all the things that a veterinarian doesn't need to do, but anyone can do. So if you love animals and you know how to cut a banana, or you are willing to learn how to cut a banana, you can help howler monkeys in Guatemala. You can also help elephants, now that I'm thinking about it, bananas.

5:27 All animals love bananas. And so it's so great. Because our volunteers have a heart for we'll say horses and we have this wild horse conservation of Mongolia. We also have a horse sanctuary in Spain and it's the same thing. You go there, you don't have to have a background, you just have to love animals and all the teaching is on the ground, all of your orientation is when you're there, so you know exactly how to help those specific animals in that specific community, which is incredible. So it's like an all inclusive trip that we. Set up for the volunteers, but instead of laying on a beach, which is amazing, which everyone should do, you are doing some animal stuff on the side.

6:09 Now if you do volunteer with sea turtles, you do also get to lay on a beach, so you get to have both experiences. So it sounds like you have these partnerships or these relationships with these conservation programs that are all over the world, right? And so they have expressed a need that, gosh, it would be great for us to have volunteers, however many. Many or however few. And so if you're a solo traveler or if you have a group, is there any particular size of group that might be a limitation or is it pretty much they're all very interested in going to Guatemala. There's twenty of us. Yeah, book us up with something. Is that possible or is that just like you know, there are specific parameters?

6:52 Yeah. Well, so you touched on a really interesting point at the start. So all of our placement partners have asked us for volunteers. So it's never us. Kind of coerce a community or anything like that, saying, oh, you really need volunteers, You really need us. It's people who have found out about us. It's these groups that know about us, that actively ask us, hey, we want volunteers and this is a volunteer program we can offer, which is also really special. So we always know that people really do want us in the community and really do want our health. And then, yeah, there's no limitation really for volunteers. There's some placements that the volunteer program is a bit smaller, so. We can have one or two people, but if people are looking for a group experience, we can definitely make it happen.

7:38 We've had groups as big as 30. We've had our youngest volunteer was five. He went with his mom, of course, and helped with sea turtle conservation in Costa Rica. Our oldest volunteers, our youngest at heart volunteers. I'll say we're in their 80s and they live across the country from each other in America and every year they meet. In a different country and volunteer. And so they met in Nepal and did some dog work there, which was just so amazing and so beautiful. And so I think it's so special. I go to all the placements first to make sure that they're safe, they're ethical, I can get the delay of the land and understand everything.

8:20 And then I talk with all the volunteers before they go away. So I'm able to say, like, oh, this is who was picking up from the airport. This is what this looks like. And then I can also make the experience. It's more holistic for what people are looking for. So if it is a family reunion or if it is a group of students celebrating their graduation, it can look just a little bit different. And I can figure out this placement will work absolutely for you at this time and then with some insider knowledge like make sure you check this out when you're done volunteering. I'm curious about any kinds of restrictions, because I know that there might be people who might be somewhat disabled, or there might be a language barrier, or anything like. That is there anything in particular that you'd say, oh, OK, this is something to consider if you are, for example, in a wheelchair or have any kinds of mobility issues? Yeah.

9:12 So all of our programs do operate in English. Some of our veterinarians don't speak English, but we always have a volunteer coordinator and we have people on the ground that can do translation if needed. And so, yeah, knowing English, having good working knowledge is great. And then we've had quite a few. Different accessibility needs for volunteers and so some of the programs would not work if people were in a wheelchair. Guatemala has like quite a few different steps that people have to go through, but very easily if someone was in a wheelchair, they could volunteer. In Nepal, we have had volunteers that were needing a bit of help because they were in deafened, and that was totally fine. We're able to give them tons of information at the start that they could read before they went over for orientation. Not every placement will work for every person, but I think because I go there first, I'm able to say now this won't work, but this could work as well.

10:11 I think also looking at things like help for shop and just travel in general, I think sometimes people want to go really hard for their first trip and I love that. But if it is people's first trip, I think sometimes going a bit easier into things. So we had someone a few years ago who had never. Her cities, she was from like quite a small city in Canada and she wanted to go to Nepal and I said like, that is great and I love that for you. But let's start with something a bit easier as your very first trip because they don't want your first trip to be so perhaps loud. So we actually got her to start on a trip to Australia and she went to Nepal a few years after and she was like it made. All the difference.

11:03 Australia is of course further away, but being able to just like be out of your comfort zone but not so far out that you feel completely lost and isolated and confused. We have amazing families on the ground, we have amazing volunteer coordinators and just wonderful people. But I want everyone to be set up for success, especially at this time after the pandemic when all of us are needing just like a bit more hand holding, I think in a bit more just. Like big sister help, I want people to know that you will be supported every single step of the way, but not everything has to be so hard. We can be gentle with travel and still have an amazing time. When you're going to any given place, I'm sure that the accommodations are different everywhere. What can somebody expect?

11:51 Say for example, if they say I would love to go to Australia, what kind of place would they be staying at versus a Nepal? Yeah, that's a great question because. Both those places are so different and I think that's one of the things I love about our placements as well, because it's truly about the animal you're interested in, but also the experience you're interested in. So in Australia, we have a wildlife center that people volunteer at, of course, and you stay in a Ranger cabin at the back of the center and there's one international volunteer a month that stays there. And so you basically stay in a Ranger cabin in the Outback and.

12:31 You have this beautiful, like, peaceful healing environment that you're just surrounded by these animals. Yeah, it's beautiful and peaceful. And then in Nepal, where you stay is this beautiful lodge that's in a city called Bhaktapur, which is the whole city is a UNESCO World Heritage Site. And the lodge that you stay in has been made to look like an ancient Nepali castle. And you're right in the middle of everything. So you are beside a cafe beside a temple. You there's always hustle and bustle. You can go on the roof and you can see the Himalayas and you can see the sun rising over top of this UNESCO World Heritage Site.

13:16 It's so old and so beautiful and and peaceful in a way, but it's very like culturally in your face. Wow. So people can essentially think about this as something that they can do as a destination volunteer initiative? Or they can tack it on to another trip or another sort of adventure that they're on, so that it's maybe bookending or something like that. Yeah, absolutely. That's how I felt when I went to Mongolia. I had always been interested in Mongolia, but I didn't have like a reason to go. And so to go and volunteer with the horses and stay in a yurt, to be on the Mongolian step and just go hiking every day. And then at the end of the trip, I spent a week in a Lambatar and just soaked in the culture and the food.

14:01 Food and the heritage and everything, and it's such an interesting way to get into a country, get some roots, get some language, get some friends that are there, and then be able to explore a little more and feel a little closer to the locals and do some. Like traveling is really amazing. Wow, and I love that you've coined the phrase consent based tourism. Can you describe it from front to finish about what you mean by consent based tourism? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We were trying to figure out. Way to talk about ethical travel in a really accessible way because they're these huge ideas. You could go to school forever to just talk about ethics and just talk about travel.

14:43 And so consent based tourism kind of came to me as this like very accessible way that people could figure out if right now what they're doing was ethical. And if you wanted to know more, you of course could do more research but this was more of a like full body. Yes feeling so in consent based tourism it's kind of like a. Triangle. And so the one point is the community. So is the community not just accepting you, but are they inviting you to be there? Sort of like if someone just walked into your house one day? Is that actual consent if you actually want them there? Are you actually opening the door and saying, yes, I do want you here? Especially important during the pandemic when people were looking to travel and we had countries that were saying, yes, travel is open, but then we would.

15:31 Talk to our local communities and say, do you want travelers? And they would say, no, we don't have our vaccines yet. We don't have safety yet, please do not come. So it was like, you know, this push and pull of tourism can be so helpful and so wonderful if the local community is inviting you there. The second point of the triangle, especially with what we do, is the animals. And so are the animals actually consenting to the interaction that they're having. So if an animal is on. Want to tether. If they have chains, if they can't leave the interaction, it's not consensual. And so if you're like on a beach and someone has like a monkey with a chain around its neck, you know that's not a consensual interaction. And you can know, I don't know the history of that monkey, but I know the monkey doesn't want to be here. And then importantly, like coercion is also not consent. And so if there is a wild animal that is being baited, then we know for sure that's just coercion. It's not actually a full body.

16:33 Yes, from that animal. And again, we don't have to know the whole story of this other Santee and being. We can just know it's not actually saying yes in the way that we want to. Which brings us to the last part of the triangle, which is us, the traveler, which I think is so deeply important for us to have full body yeses when we're traveling. It's not a oh, I feel kind of weird and I don't know or I don't want to hurt people's feelings or I don't really feel safe. We want. Everyone to have the experience they want to have while there's like they're staying safe and while everyone is staying safe around them and liberation is not a one way St. when we liberate ourselves and we consent to something then we give other people the opportunity to consent or not the to say no as a full sentence. And so when we are making choices when we're traveling we may not know why we have that ich but we know the ich exists so we get to say no.

17:32 And say I don't consent to this. I don't know why yet, but I'm just gonna back up and do something else. Brilliant. I love how mindful that you are and it shows in the fact that you have gotten so many kinds of certifications for what you do in recognition for the type of business that you're operating. Can you tell me about some of those? Yeah, We're an awardwinning B Corp Every year that we've been a B Corp, we have also been best for the world, which is incredible. And I'm so proud of us. Yeah, just being a B Corp has. Has been amazing because while I think people should trust me, people don't know me and everyone has nice things to say on the Internet. So I'm really happy to have certifications that people can look into and they're able to say, look at the numbers and say this is how many animals are being helped by this and this is how many communities are locally engaging in our placements. We also have some really just amazing certifications to think about the animals that we're working. With we work with PASA, the Pan African Sanctuary Alliance, to make sure that all of the programs that we're working with in sub-Saharan Africa are real sanctuaries. There is no international designation on what a sanctuary is, so anyone can say that they're a sanctuary. Tiger King said that they were a sanctuary. And while I have never seen the show, I'm pretty sure I know that they're not an actual sanctuary that's helping animals.

18:59 And so it's really important to work with these. Different groups and have these certifications, wildlife, not entertainers and things like that to show that we're working with wildlife, we're not exploiting wildlife, we're not here to give people, you know, maybe like an Instagrammable moment through exploitation. We're here to service and help communities and help animals 1st and in that we'll get Instagrammable moments. Yeah. And you touch on an interesting point because I think that that is something that unfortunately is kind of rampant. It it's the exploitation and it's the mistreatment of animals or of local culture. I mean, clearly that's one of the reasons why you said that's not going to be my business.

19:41 I want to do things in a different way. Absolutely. When we first started in 2011, I think the world was quite different and I think that there was a lot of trust in to our operators and in volunteering. And if you said something was volunteering, then you just automatically thought it was good. And I think we're just learning. So much more about animal exploitation, human exploitation, trafficking of everything. And we're able to just, you know, know better so we can do better in Canada. We are really lucky that we have a lot of education going towards reconciliation of First Nations people through the Truth and Reconciliation Council and work that's going on and I think again like through the liberation and through the understanding and education of what is happening in Canada.

20:31 We can also learn about the decolonization of tourism around the world. Very much in Canada, we had residential schools that First Nations kids would be forced to go to so they could learn how to be Westernized and whatever that means. But we're seeing that happening with socalled orphanage tourism and socalled school tourism around the world, specifically in Eastern Europe and Southeast Asia. People think that they're doing the right. Thing by giving these kids a Western education, but they're actually being taken from their families, sometimes violently, sometimes through coercion. And people just aren't asking the right questions because they're trusting too much, unfortunately.

21:14 And so I think it's really important for us, even though we work in the animal field, to sometimes talk about why we exist. We exist because the counter exists. We exist because there are unethical things that are happening and there is exploitation and just asking. Questions will honestly free all of us to really understand why we're here and how we can actually help. Wow, It's really eye opening. And yeah, sometimes it's not as easy to do your homework. But knowing that there are great organizations like yours that are really, you know, deep down into the soul and fiber of how you started and why you exist. I mean, it's meaningful and it's very important. Now, another part of what you're doing obviously, is booking the travel.

21:59 And so it behooves me to not talk about like. The sustainability of the CO2 emissions and and how that could potentially be offset in terms of being able to be as sustainable as possible as well. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. When we first started, we definitely were like, well, what does this look like because people have to get on they, but I guess they don't have to. They could row across the ocean, but typically they do go on flights. So what we do is we make sure that all of the trips are carbon balanced and so we plant a tree for all. We're volunteers, but then we also buy into carbon offsets. We work with a really small but mighty group in Canada called The Carbon Farmer. They are replanting the boreal forest, the lungs of Canada and the world with native organic trees up in northern Alberta, which is amazing.

22:50 And then we also look at really we are carbon balancing the trips, but then the trips themselves echo with so much benefit. Even though people are getting on flights, they are helping so much more. And so when you go to an elephant center in Thailand, yes, you are using carbon. You are on a plane. But when you're able to work with these elephants, when people hear about the elephant stories, when you're able to change your life just a little bit on this service trip, you yourself then are becoming a better, maybe not better. You're becoming a different traveler. You're understanding your footprint a little more.

23:31 And if you're gonna be on a plane anyway, let's make sure that you are on a plane to go help animals. When you go to Costa Rica, you also take part in quite a big mangrove rehabilitation reforestation area. And so it's again like there will always be a cost unfortunately to being alive. There's always carbon that's being in the atmosphere on what we're doing, what we're trying to be really mindful with investing in really great programs and really great people who are making sure that. But everything that is existing because of the travel is worth it, because of the conservation and the welfare and the reforestation that's happening. Yeah. Now I appreciate the fact that you're so forthcoming and it's important to know that yes, there is reforestry initiative happening to help offset that particular travel adventure.

24:22 I also encourage any listener who is traveling for this or for any other type of activity, whether it be leisure or for work to go and take a. Look at if you go to the B Corporation directory, you'll find a number of different organizations. I actually interviewed a couple recently. Trade Water is one of them. Unit of impact. Goodwings is another one that are actually working with individuals where you can actually put in a calculator. In some cases you can actually book your travel through them and what they will actually do is offset through either biofuel development as well as reforestry initiatives, things like that in the case of Trade Water. They're actually helping to plug up methane gas, which is just being exposed and shooting like very, very potent, volatile emissions out into the atmosphere. And so by helping to support and fund these kinds of initiatives, you're helping to not only offset your own travel, but you're also helping to support good companies who are doing this for the better and helping to control climate change, helping to really stem this climate crisis that we're all in.

25:27 So we're focused on people as well as the planet, and that's why it's good to really. Consider also be corporations. Take a look at all of them, including Animal Experience International is doing wonderful, wonderful work. I am so impressed by the rigor of what Nora is doing and Dr. Reid. It's really just mind blowing and exciting to know that such kinds of companies exist. So I strongly encourage everybody to go take a look. Where can we find your website, Nora? It's just Animal Experience international.com. There you go, take a look and may your next travel adventure. Be an exciting one, and one that is going to help not only yourself get a really great, fulfilling experience, but also helping a local community and also helping an animal have a better life. Nora Livingstone, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much, Jennifer.

26:18 This was so wonderful. Thank you for listening to the Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Be sure to follow. Rate and review us wherever you stream podcasts. The Human Beauty Movement is a community based platform that cultivates the beauty of humankind. Check out our workshops. Find us on social media and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more at The Human Beauty. Movement.com. Thank you so much. For being a beautiful human.