Episode 53: Katie Willcox - On Being a Plus-Size Model, A Modeling Agency Founder, and Why Healthy Is The New Skinny

0:09 Hello. Beautiful human. Welcome to the human Beauty movement podcast. I'm your host Jennifer Norman. Throughout my life, I've been a lover and a seeker of all things beauty from art and dance to cosmetics, and fashion to music and nature. But through my own personal Journey. I've come to discover what I believe is the most beautiful thing. In the universe, the beauty of the human soul. On this podcast, I sit down with beautiful humans. From all corners of the globe and all walks of life to learn how they are living their own unique. Soul Beauty out loud. You'll hear from game changers. Rebels with gray causes stages odds, M and Valiant Warriors who fall down seven times and get up eight. This is the podcast where abundant energy flows and supreme wisdom is bestowed, get ready to enjoy the inspiration. So whenever I'm asked about why I started the human Beauty, My answer is pretty simple, I believe that no matter who you are, you matter yet, this belief is often contrasted. But what I saw play out in media and in culture, particularly in Fashion Beauty and modeling Industries. Fortunately things are changing here to join me for a conversation on the beauty of diverse representation is Katie Wilcox.

1:30 Katie is the founder of natural Model Management and she's also the author of healthy is the new skinny. You Our guide to self-love and a picture perfect world. Katie has been a top plus size model for 15 years. And boy, does she have stories? All too often Katie, saw the ugly side of beauty and she wanted to change things for the better. Her mission is to promote health and happiness within the modeling industry and to help everyone recognize the beauty of their own natural body shape and size. Welcome Katie, thank you so much for having me. Thank you for joining me all the way from Cancun Mexico. I have a cute little Coffee Spot, so you hear her coffee making the background.

2:12 Yes, cappuccino. We're just we're just five it over here. Hopefully, you'll get some good in Tequila later on, but exactly for that, I would love for you to dial it back to those early days of what it was like when you first started out as a model. Oh my gosh. Okay. So it was 2002 and everything wasn't even digital yet so it was still We'll fill them cameras. So there was there was a lot of men and Cruz. There wasn't women yet so it would be like male hair and makeup nail stylist male photographers but a lot they'll crew was definitely a heavily male and the industry at that point was like Victoria's Secret America's Next Top Model like height of everything. So you know it was like the most toxic culture for girls and women ever at that point.

3:03 And I when I just wanted to tell you I was actually working for victorious. Great catalog Vedic here and there was 1999 where something like that when I work for for Victoria's Secret catalogs. Okay go on, go out tonight. I also love me just say I would order from Victoria's Secret catalog, obviously and I would always be shocked when I got the clothes because like these do not look anything like the pants that Adriana Lima had on, like they literally don't even look like this at all and high waters. And the belt is different in, but I had no idea that that's the game. It is so funny, like having those memories of because this isn't making sense. I don't understand this and then getting into the industry.

3:44 So, I was a volley of competitive volleyball player, and was in Seattle, for volleyball tournament. And then went into an agency for an open call and they would like, oh, you'd be perfect for plus size. So, that's when I first heard about it, I think that was like, when it first started in the market of like, it was a size zero to was considered a standard. And so I add a size 10 12, like athlete was considered, plus I And so people were really like, offended by that Van Dyke, how could you be called plus size? And we heard that for years and years and years and years, like, it just like, people could not put their head around it because it was so distorted to reality, like, in reality, a size 10, is that even remotely close to plus-size. In fact, I'm a perfect weight for my height. I have more muscle mass than the average. I go get my body scan at the doctor. I'm above average at health and so, you're like, so what would that say if I in order to be a straight size model? My only other option I would have had to lose 60 pounds. Like that was the reality of the time. You either were a small frame and could starve yourself down small enough or you then had to gain weight to be a size, 14 sample.

4:51 So when I started, they were like, hey, love your luck. If you can get a little bit bigger, that'd be perfect. And I was like, well I can't lose 60 pounds and then I naturally gained 30 pounds going to college and eating pizza through the morning and like in the pressure 30. So I was like oh this is great like I stopped Sports all of that happened and then I started working a lot but that's when it kind of said and we're like, oh wait, no this doesn't feel good. You know in theory we think that validation will feel good like oh as long as I'm working I was like that's not good for my body. It was too much for my frame and it wasn't healthy. And so I had the opposite experience where instead of getting rewarded for under eating or you know, reaching a small sample size, I kind of got rewarded for being a bigger sample size than my natural size, should be in really thinking, like your livelihood depends on, on what your hip measurement is, is the weirdest.

5:40 Most unhealthy thing you can do to a young person to anyone, but especially a teenage girls and that's what was happening. Didn't matter if it was on the small side or if you came in as a Curve Model, you know, you were really like the redheaded stepchild of the industry is what we say. Like, it was just not even looked at as like a real model. It was like, oh, you're the plus-size model and any time I would go to shoot, that would be like if it was a group shot, it would be four straight size girls with cute outfits. Perfectly style, good makeup. And then, there'd be just me, like, kind of like, in the back and like some ugly outfit and like, you know, like this have to throw it in and it started with Juniors. And then it's like, worked, its way up into women's. But what we see now is really, the shift is, social media is the demand from plus-sized, women who really changed the whole industry, not just the plus size industry. But their localization of being like, I want to see actual woman that looks like me.

6:33 This is not plus size. We don't care what you want to call it. This is not plus I was we want to See sighs 1820s, that's huh sighs. So their demand to their clients and they listened. So when that happened, what it did is it created a big divide where you got your still, your standard 02 and then you've got an 18 and now they're putting them next to each other and it's too big of a gap is too extreme for the public to be able to process that because one was it held as ideal for so long and then this is a new ideal but just a completely. Like, you're either this boxer, this box when most people are neither of those and were All in the middle. Like we said like of the spectrum of size and beauty and all those things. So it's been wild ride to see how it started and being able to have been in it when it started and seeing the evolution and the progression of where it's going.

7:19 And I don't know if it's just like we always joke and say like I'm a little bit psychic because I know exactly where the shift is going to happen and I know it is and I've been right every single time as far as like going out and finding what I know the markets going to do before it happens and then having that when the shift happens work, Clients can go, oh, great, we need this. So it started with being like, okay, it's going to go to curve models, so size 14s where the samples getting that. Then it's going to go larger than that. We have Fuller sizes. Now, the big I've been telling everyone for years and they're like you calls it. Like it's going to go to mid-size, so because it's their extremes like we talked about people really want to see just like average size. So when we're looking at women and size, the real size spectrum is a 0 to a 30, not a zero, to a port.

8:07 Which is what's available in stores and was talking about. That is, if you're looking at, what's the average size of women in the United States, it's a size 16 at 5 foot 4. So the average-sized woman can't even fit. They mainstream brand size range which economically makes no sense. And we haven't seen any progress in terms of those adjustments to cater to the market and to cater to women. It's still being put on women to change their bodies to fit the clothes and that's my prediction in the future. You could say, you heard it here. That's To change, consumers are going to start driving that market on all size there. They don't want to Vision, they don't, it doesn't matter if you're a size, 18 or your size 6, or your attend, or your two, women are now going. We just all want to be the same.

8:49 We don't want the division, we don't have the, the elitism and the superiority complex of the beauty ideal like we did in the Victoria Secret time. That's how it was so successful. That's kind of been diminished. And so now we really want like a quality. We want our friends to feel good, and we want all women to, like, go fabulous and be able to shop and enjoy their beauty. An expression. So it's been a wild ride from, like, beginning to Middle to where we're at and the future where we're going. I think it's going to be even better. Amazing, and I know that you had started this initiative, which is healthy, is the new skinny because we were finding how damaging or how much harm was being done by traditional models. As you were saying size zero, size, two girls that were in that mid-level were not necessarily fitting here or there, and so, they were either instructed, like, you got to lose.

9:37 Is 30 pounds, which is insane. Like for anybody, any young girl 16 years old to be totally got to lose 30 pounds. I remember, even when I was living in New York and somebody suggested I go for modeling, which to me blew my mind because I never felt pretty being looking like, how I left and being only 52. And then when I went in and they said well you know you really need to lose at least 10 15 pounds and at 52 at the time I was 103 pounds like to get down to like 85 pounds was a child was really that would have Very, very damaging to my health. And the only time that I came close was when I went through this massive depression. I was you know, going through a divorce at the time and I stopped eating and then I lost weight and then all of a sudden I was like, hey I look good. This is sick.

10:22 You know that's like I was literally sick from depression and I was sick and thinking that that's how my body should have been. And I was like, oh well maybe I should just stay depressed. Maybe I should just stop eating. And so the you know, the mental the emotional unwellness that comes from this This whole idea of identity being valued at being something that you just are not naturally supposed to be like a and it's a reward system. So it's not just that of like, oh you should lose 30 pounds. Like if there wasn't a major reward for that, no one would do it. You'd be like, no way. I'm not doing that. That's stupid. But because they brainwash girls from the time, they're little with this Imaging and then the messaging that comes with the beauty ideal and this is Help girls really understand and some workshops will say, okay, let's write it down on this board. What is the perfect woman?

11:13 Look like let's name everything we can think of and it's literally a list of like a hundred things so you're going. Okay. What do you get if you have all of these, what do you get? Why do people strive so hard to have it? Why do we spend so much to have it? What do we promised by the pursuit of these things? And that's the core message is that it's happiness, love tension, money, guys will like you, you'll be popular. You Have followers. Your life is easier, you're in control, that's all the messaging us program through those images. That's the core desire of what women and girls really want especially living in a patriarchal society is like you can be like you want to have freedom to walk around the street in your underwear and feel fabulous like Victoria's Secret. We're going now put that into the real real world. The social media is great, we're girls express that but you can't do that in real life.

12:04 You can just walk down the street in your underwear and not Be safe. So we have this, like fantasy, what's portrayed of like a woman's desires and they are pulling from the things that we wish we could have and we really wish we could be. And then they're saying, here's how you get it, and by being so young and vulnerable to believe those things and you work with someone who's like, all you do is lose 30 pounds, you get to be a Victoria's Secret model. Like those girls have no shame, no chance, you know none of us did. That's why we all did horrible things to our bodies and the pursuit of this stuff because really We were lacking so much internally and I think collectively when we stopped to look at that, how we all were feeling and how much we were not, receiving of our own happiness, our own fulfillment, our own safety, our owns like self control, self fulfillment. That's a shocking.

12:53 When you're like, this has been the work that I feel like our generation has done to be the women. We are right now and it's the Tipping Point because the daughters were raising are going to be very different and but we almost had to be like we've been talking about you all set. Through all of that to have this awareness and this understanding of how mislead we were in the pursuit of the things that we get to decide if we have or not, no one else gets to give us permission for those things. And our bodies are not the determining factor of, who's allowed to have those things. So it's a, I think it's a power conversation which I love, but I would love to hear from you did, what were they like your marketing meetings, like, in some of your jobs? Like, do you have characters of like, what you were selling the girl? Like, she's like a free.

13:35 She's cool. Like how what? What was it? Like, I'd love to hear it. Well, you know what was fascinating? Is that, you know, early on it was very much about like, who is Victoria Secret? There was a hole, almost booklet. Put together on, you know, she was in college, she dated the quarterback, she enough and so you get this Persona, that's fabricated in the mind. But you know, she, you know, aspired. It's kind of like the whole Ralph Lauren thing. It's like be it until you become it or fake it till you make it creates this whole world of Polo Charles revson said, you know, beauty is A jar, what we're selling is Hope in a jar and so it's like that fantasy, that aspiration of a bigger life, a better life. That is not really truly attainable. But that's keeping us all wanting and that's where the money goes.

14:18 It's like spending spending spending to get to this place that you never actually will be able to obtain and so yeah there was a certain amount of Illusion and theater. That would go into it all. There was so much time and involvement that would go into just creating. I would almost say like because of the way that The merchandising and the stores would be set up. We would literally create that in the office space and have these fantasy worlds built out so that we could get into the emotion and what it was like to be in like the Christmas catalog or what have you. And so you know it's from a design standpoint and from an artistic standpoint there is this expression of beauty and of you know just like this kind of pushing the envelope and Innovation.

15:05 And so from that perspective I think It was enjoyable, it was wonderful. And it was very creative. But then, when you think about it, I think that the thing that we never, or we just kind of put up with, we tolerated because it was so successful, is what it did to the consumer on the other side. Yes, she might have felt like I'm tapping into this aspiration of beauty, but what was that divided? How did we really feel? Nobody really talked about that from a mental health perspective, we always just talked about, like, you know, what was going to be the next successful campaign and how gorgeous it was, but there was this famous Amos study by Glamour magazine early on because they had gotten so much feedback and so much flak about oh your models on your covers, they are, you know, they're so unobtainable.

15:47 Why don't you put regular sized women? Why don't you put regular looking people on your covers and at one point they did and it was the worst selling magazine ever and so they were like see. We told you like nobody wants that and that's why we recommend. Yeah. And it's like yeah at that time the market wasn't ready for And it's kind of like, we would say one thing, but our Behavior are purchasing would tell a different story. And so what's really the thing that is actually going to be driving the market. It's what we feel inside. And so now that things are shifting culture is definitely shifting. And it's because there's less clout, you know, with the mega companies and it's more democratic, we Zusi personalities, overriding and you know, the success of the common person being able to come and be anything and all it takes is Evidence and this feeling that they can and they will and they'll and they'll have this passion and drive for what they're doing. And so hence the rise of the influencer, but I feel like the influencer, so I think it's a ever-evolving thing. Yeah, because of face, tuning apps, and Photoshop apps that made what models received for these magazines. So available to everyone.

17:00 Like it was created this monster of like, oh, anyone can Photoshop themselves to have a different body, too? A different face to have different hairs, have different eye color and create these complete false personas that we see that are influencers and influencing. And isn't that ironic? That just what we were fighting against is what the behavior has become at the individual level. Yes, it's so fascinating to explore because I always have the same questions where there was one specific plus-size Grand. That we shot here in Cancun one time actually and they sold two very large women. So I was a size 6 at the time. Time and the dresses are just like, you know, they called them Ulus.

17:41 That's actually what they're called. They're like those long just straight dresses on the beach and I was like, why are you guys use my size? If you sell the like women who are size 20 and up, you know, and they're like, oh well we mark it tested it and we used a size 18 and we used you and you outsold by like 80% and I was like, that is fascinating. So I think that comes back to like that conversation about the aspirational versus the attainable. Like, you don't really. And this is The marketing perspective to be like, well, how attainable are you wanting to sell? Because if it's not aspirational, even in the real sense, like, Dove is another great example. When Dove came on the scene, I was so excited because I was like, oh, finally, I had little use me like right there like no, you're too pretty. And I was like, what do you mean? And they're like, no, they want like real women and I was like, what did that?

18:28 I don't get that and I like you you're not like real enough but yet the breakdowns that they would put out for their castings were like so specific. It was like no tattoo. Two's not taxed. You can't have tattoos. You can't this like in the beginning. So it was very curated vision of what a real woman is which is she's not attractive. This is based off of their vision. Of how are we going to relate to Mom's? And like this is what it is the marketing is when you break it down and you have to look at it and this is what I would teach in my course is because I'm like at the end of the day what does all the messaging that Dove has which is wonderful. I love their messaging, I love their initiatives, they help girls, but what Any of that have to do with soap and deodorant and shampoo and lotion absolutely effing nothing. So what would be the reason for it is because they're directly targeting a very specific consumer Group, which is the women in the household, with the moms who buy those products for their home.

19:24 They're trying to create a brand loyalty. So, when they go shop, they're picking their brand and like, once I recognized that, I was like, wow, that's so smart and tricky. I was like, it's not good or bad because they are Doing good, things are having good messaging but it still doesn't mean that it's fully authentic. It's still marketing with the agenda to self. So, just recognizing things. What they are. Do we want that our marketing. Yes. But does it have anything to do with products that they're selling? No. And the company that owns stuff which is Unilever there. Other number one, brand is acts so at the same time dub was coming out with these. Like we love women, like their other company was having the marketing that was doing worse harm to women by having the chauvinistic.

20:07 It was branding towards men so you're like how the two go together. Like that's what's so fun when you actually take the personal side out of this. And that's what my book is about is to say beauty, and body image and media marketing, you have to switch it out of the emotional brain and into your rational brain because you can really make a lot of progress and electrically. If you're willing to ask the questions of like, why do I think this way? How is this box connected this box and then you're like they got we and so I teach my daughter this now too. So We go to the grocery stores. Like Mom or they tricking me I go. What do you think? So? They'll put, you know, cartoon characters on stuff and she'll be like, Mom, I want this juice and I'm like, you don't even like that kind of juice. You're not going to like it. She's like, I really I am I'm going to, I want it just because of the character and so I taught her, I go.

20:52 Okay, I'm gonna teach you something right now. It's like they're tricking you and she's like, what do you mean? It was like they were putting it in this princess bottle because they know that you're going to like it and want to buy it and I promise you you're not going to like it. I go still I'm gonna you get one treat. You choose this? Fine. But if you don't like it, you don't get to have another one and you got tricked and that's just the way it goes. So she got it. She didn't like it. And that she from that point on she's always like Mom, you're tricking me and I think I told you you're not going to like that one. I'll tell you the flavors you're going to like but you won't like that so she's recognizing it younger to be like oh yeah that is a trick. And so I think that's what we're looking at is. We're like it really was a bait and switch system of we're going to sell youichi poorly made products that we pay. Professionals to photograph and make look amazing and beautiful people and their altered and pinned and photo shops and presented in a way that looks amazing. That's not what you get and we're going to convince you that you're the problem.

21:52 So that when that product shows up and it looks like shit because that's what it actually was to begin with, you're going to think there's something wrong with you and the system will keep thriving even though they don't have to have Goods that are quality, So that was the shift that happened in the 50s and it wasn't from a needs to a want system. So with marketing in the 50s, it was all about durability and how things coming off of like people coming back for more and all of the you know, Industrial Revolution was like these pantyhose. You can wear them for 10 years. Like one set of pantyhose like it was all about like functionality of products and how to sell it like this power window goes up and down and they would like show that and they realized it was Edward Bernays. Who was the first person to Great public relations in New York?

22:37 I realized that you could partner celebrities with Brands and put it on the movie and it would go through the roof and you don't have to get so good quality, you just have to make people want it. And so understanding the needs to the wants like that happens to me all the time. It's psychology. I will online shop. I just I love it and sometimes I just push it in the cart and then I'm like, no deleting it. But I felt better that I like put stuff in the cart and I don't need it but I want it. So I have to be conscious of like, why am I wanting this? How is a soothing and motion right now. Like it's very X. And I think that for women shopping is an outlet for emotional things, and we love visual, like I love seeing colors and patterns, I love just walking around a store like that's the thing with men.

23:20 Like they hate that like they're like, oh my God, and they ruin your shopping experience, a Target. You're like, just go, you're going to ruin this for me. I just want to walk around like there's something therapeutic about it in a lot of ways and I'm been really conscious as of late being like, what is this again? What am I getting from this? Because it makes me feel better momentarily. But not long term. So, like there's psychology of that wrapped into all of this retail, consumerism stuff to that is like the next phase of understanding. Once you get past the, like aspirational. Like I just want everyone to think. I'm cool. Like, I think that's the younger woman thing and then as you get into your like later, 30s 40s, it's more of like you don't give a shit about that but yet they're still connection to it. That is self soothing or has been for me and I'm like, kind of exploring now to that pretty interesting but there's so much psychology and all of it, whether Marketing body image and then going into like your personal upbringing and childhood and all of that is very complex.

24:13 I like when people are willing to explore the complexities and ask questions versus the like, look in the mirror and say how much you love yourself. I'll I'm all here. I'm here for affirmations to but like if you're not doing the other work it's just a joke like you have to be doing the work to figure out the answers as you're challenging them by looking in the mirror and saying no you know I do look effing good today like nope. That negative voice isn't going to work. Like I'm you're not tricking me like I know how this process is and you're actually connecting all those dots. So that's something that I've just find super fascinating and love to explore like it continually amazing amazing. So when you started natural Model Management back in 2011 what was the real impetus behind that? Like you know you had been a model yourself and then all of a sudden it's like, you know there's so many things that you could have done.

25:02 It's like, why did you decide to start your own modeling agency? Yeah it was well I tried to get our The other agency says, with to care, more about plus-size and they just didn't have a passion for it at all. It was like, oh, we get a client great, but they didn't actively go try to find models and I would see girls all the time. And I'm like, there's so many girls, like me doing this, and it's such a wonderful opportunity. If you have a healthy experience, doing it like, it can be changed your life for good. And so I would try to bring that to them to be like, oh I could Scout I could do this. And I was like why am I doing all of that for people that don't really care about if I'm the one that's passionate about it and I'm the one wanted to do it. Why wouldn't I just created for myself? Elf and so, yeah. And I obviously, I was young, I was 25. So I was naive as hell too, and it's great because, like, I needed that in order to take on all of this, I had no idea like what would come with it, are how as it grew like you know, it gets more and more complex as things get bigger and bigger, but it was just a idea where I knew there were other girls, like me, and if I could fill the void of making sure, that clients had an option to book different sizes, then they couldn't have the excuse anymore of like agencies. Won't care.

26:07 Have girls, so size of clients, don't book them and clients will say well we can't book those models to the agencies, don't even have them. So I was like, if you build it they will come. So we built it. And that's exactly what happened is the market shifted right as we thought it would and it started going that direction. So it's just never stopped since then which is really wild. Yeah, it seems like your first point of differentiation was in plus size or curvy girl. Like, I know that there are a number of different ways that people speak about girls that are Normal saw like average and then you know, more more of the everyday type person. And then you also branched out into other kinds of diversity to can you talk about that? Yeah, so for me I've always had diverse friends and I would talk to them and be like I don't understand like why I'm being cast in the industry is the ethnic model and I'm Caucasian.

26:58 So I'm like how am I like the ethnic one in the group like something's off and I was able to recognize that and it wasn't until I got on. Side of like the agent side to see the breakdowns and this is back in the day where it was specifically they say, like, African-American light-skinned curly hair or mixed light-skinned curly hair. So it was like, very specific to the type of African American models that were being allowed to be seen and they were all like mulatto with, you know, a different curl texture to their hair. That was a bigger curl texture. You weren't seeing tight curl textures or afros or dark tones, and in same thing with Asian models. It's like, you would get one on the board, maybe two.

27:39 And that was like, oh, I we met our quota. And I think that's how people really looked at it where they were like, oh, we have our three black models. So we're good. And when you look at that, you're like, nobody would ever say that about, oh, well, we have enough, white models were good. So it was such a bias that we'd be like. You just wouldn't even think to say that, it's like, that's the default was Caucasian. And then everything else was a box that could be checked and I just didn't see it that way. I was like, Now, if I come across someone who's stunning, who's going to photograph like a model, it doesn't matter how many other models that are the same race that I have. Their their own unique individual person just like any other model and I never saw it that way.

28:20 So I really love the way that it looked on my board and I love psych inspired me till when I see beauty. Like a ROM is one of our models and she's a dark tone and she has is a gap in her teeth and she's just like the most beautiful human being also she's like an angel on this Earth. I always brag about Her but she's so different, her beauty. So different from mine then I'm like enamored by it because I'm like it's so different from Vine that like I don't see myself in her at all. And yet I love looking at her images, I love the way her skin photographs, I love her smile, like I love studying and looking at her photos and I think there was this idea that unless someone can see themselves in someone else or aspire to be someone else, and they can't be inspired by a photo. And I'm like, that's changing to where women are now. All being as we found more self love in our own selves, we're actually seeing an appreciating diverse Beauty and others that are different from us.

29:15 We're like so, instead of critiquing it or putting it down because it's different. We're actually like, wow like I love her. Look like, she's so gorgeous. I love her skin. And like, how that has an effect of my daughter? It's mixed. So her dad is half black and she has his exact skin tone. So she's very like, caramely it gets super tan and I never noticed certain things. Like, she's six and show, she would get a doll. And she's like, Mom, this party has my skin and then, and it was like a Barbie that's like, way darker than her. It was funny. Like, that's how she liked the saw herself. Like yeah, she's so beautiful. I think we make sure like, even with all the models that we have, we constantly are like, oh, she's gorgeous. And there's no conversation about size or no conversation about skin.

29:58 Like, everybody's getting the same commentary and so because of that she, when she picks dolls and she picks toys, they happen to be diverse. So so you're like there's a connection to that to wear for, we grew up only seeing blond white women, I still didn't see anyone who looks like me and I'm Caucasian. So I cannot imagine how that must have felt for the vast majority of women who are ethnic. I'm like, it's just shocking to not, go to not even, see yourself at all, let alone like not seeing someone that kind of looks like you. I mean, there, it was all white women represented. So it's just about, I think, compassion and Consciousness, where you can really have empathy to Put yourself in someone else's shoes really fully and I think when you have diverse groups of women and people around you that you talk to and you listen and you hear their stories and you really like paused put yourself in that position like when they win you feel that too? We were like did it like we did something for Humanity. This one like and they cry when they see their photos and you see little girls looking at their photos and so with a lot of the like stuff in our industry, your deal Lot of egos. You deal with a lot of just like personalities and that's the draining part on the internal side, but the external side is the whole point behind doing it is. It's not about the few.

31:18 On the inside, it's about the amount of people that see an image that you helped put out into the world, that it affects input a ripple effect outward and so its bigger than that. So it's that to me is always been my focus and I think that's why we continue to evolve because I listened very closely and I'm very in tune with What women are saying and what the pulses of what we want, and what Young Girls are saying and what they want, they want one group. They don't want to be labeled and separated any longer. So, as long as they're driving, that and consumers will continue to drive the market that will be the future because of them. Absolutely. And so being on the Forefront of Trends as you are, I started the game changers board. Yes.

32:01 Okay. You want to tell everybody about that? Yeah, so the game changer is so this is like the next That I really see when it comes to marketing. So, because everything is so saturated with influencers and fake images and fake personalities and like, you know, influence was in the wild is like the funniest page ever because it's ridiculous and we all know it. So it's about acknowledging that that anyone can pretend now because they've been given a template that's really easy to copy, no matter what it is, you can literally copy any kind of persona because you can just follow with someone else has done and then that's like a Is copy paste. So authenticity is actually very rare and it's very noticeable. Now, when you come across it because everything else is such a facade and people tend to lose their authenticity because they are really curating themselves so heavily. So, but they look at marketing and marketing value, you know, Beauty, you're like, yeah, okay, but it's getting boring. It just is, everyone has the same face. Everybody's getting the same plastic surgery. Everybody's doing the same filters. Everyone does their makeup the same? I'm like, I know I'm like getting old, but they're certain A breeze.

33:07 I'm like, who's that? I thought there was that other girl, like you look exactly the same. Like, no, that's so insulting. Like, okay, this is getting difficult for me to tell the difference. Like that's it strange. So with branding and you're like, you have to come up with something different every season, every campaign you want to try to get some kind of attention for you. Put a lot of money into it as a for marketing and you want to have an outcome, that brings value to the brand and value is no longer coming from Aesthetics only. And that's what you were talking about. Where value Is coming from people and coming from authenticity that not everyone can fake. So brands are going to always have models that sell like you know, the products which is fine. But there's also going to be a new way of where they're going to need storytellers that are going to be like hey this person does this this and this and she's awesome. And she's funny and you're seeing stuff like that comedians getting campaigns and like, because they're funny and they're doing something totally different than what people have done in marketing before for women and having a different approach.

34:06 To the same stuff like it is refreshing. So there's more opportunities than ever before for people to go out and be game changers. Even if you don't have a lot of following like that's misguided to it, doesn't matter how many followers you have, if the work you do is genuine and authentic and Powerful. That's what the value is going to be when partnering with a brand. So it's not there yet but you start to notice more and more brands are doing that. Like you said, they're using normal people, that are cool. Like, we just saw, we use one. I think was a it was a Dickies ad, and it was like this producer, this like guy, those also skater and have this like, big curly hair and he was Mexican and lives in LA and he wears Dickies and it was like a real guy, who would totally wear that and he looked cool wearing it and he, this was his work and this is like what he does for a living and they were featuring that and it's like you can't fake that with a model, you know? And and you look at that progression, same thing with like movies and who are all the leads and movies, you know like especially the high school movies. It was all like models who are like 30 but High school kids and they're like it loses something.

35:10 There's something that you're like, where's the Victoria's Secret time where you're like everyone wanted to be that. We see that now and it's like you kind of do an eye roll. And so you really are starting to see, like non-traditional leads being cast and shows and movies that would never normally be cast as weeds. And those shows are doing really well and the writing is getting super funny because it's a different perspective that none of us have I've been exposed to but we're relating to in a way we're like, yeah, I have this, I have a friend who's just like that, and I do that too. And so we're really realizing like looks tell have been told telling a very specific story that is not real and I think you've probably experienced that when you get judged for the way you look or people make assumptions about you of Italy.

35:55 You look have this me all the time and they're like you're not at all what I thought you're here because I go much better. They're like yeah, I know. But I was like sorry that I just have intense features. It can make me look mean but I I was I'm not like so it's kind of funny how people are really taking him back, if you're kind and they happen to think that you're attractive or you don't care about Aesthetics as much because you just modeling your job. But like when you're not modeling you're like a normal person who wear sweatpants and like doesn't wear makeup like those are. That's real, that's real life. And so I think there's value to that and I think people really appreciate it and it makes it a more welcoming experience to shop from someone who's honest and Funny and isn't perfect.

36:38 And is okay with existing or something, really, valuable there. And I think that's going to be the future. Hmm, I'm curious if your daughter came to you one day and said, Mommy, I want to be a model. What would your reaction be? Oh, my gosh. Well, she is quite the little actress. So she tells me she wants to do acting and she's and I'm like and she's so fun. So it's really hard as I'm stuttering because she's grown up around it. Yeah and she's really good at modeling. So she's model with me a bunch for the Maybe in different things and they're like, oh my God, she's like a pro. I'm like, well she's literally grown up, watching it. It's like kids who have like a professional soccer player as a parent and then their pro at like eight, you're like, yeah, it's unfair. She gets like professional like exposure from the time she could walk, so she doesn't so naturally.

37:24 And I asked her and be like, oh do you want to be a model? And she's like now, This is what I was talking about. It was like a snowstorm and they needed it and I was like, okay, the house wasn't like perfectly put together. I'm like, whatever. I'm just gonna film it and it's just going to be. I go we'll get style point and again being yourself is always liked so much more valuable. So we sat down with her and I was like, okay, she loves to make up knock knock jokes so I'm like okay let's do some knock-knock jokes. And she's like, okay, knock knock.

38:05 I don't like who they are. She's like lemons. I'm like lemons who she's like time to squeeze my lemons. I'm like what? Like words. So so she's mixed up. But by what she looks at. So there's just like, knock, not going to make who's there and she's like snowman because we had a snowman salt and pepper shaker and she's like, I go snowman who she's like snowman, melts and then she's like cracking up. So we put that in our video, we'd like jumped over the couch and rolled on the floor and be like you know it just funny stuff like that because kids are the best representation as models and actors because they don't have self judgement or self-criticism. They just they just do it. They just fully. Commit and they're just fully doing it. And I'm like, wow. So I really study her like that. And I learn a lot like from her, but I definitely do not ever. I think, when you're in the industry as a parent, you have a different Viewpoint where you, you're not trying to live vicariously through her.

38:56 So you're making sure that anything she wants to do is 100%. If she wants to do it, you don't need the validation for it. So you're literally, like, just want to do, is just want to do it. So that's kind of how we go with it. But, yeah, I'm letting her kind of decide and when I was pregnant with her, people would be like, oh my God. Is going to be so gorgeous. I bet she should be a model and I'd be like, well, she's a fetus. So maybe we should let her be born first and then, let her decide what she would like to do. Like, we also look at the pressure already, before she's born already has pressure to be beautiful and I'm like, so I'm very mindful of that and letting her decide that she can do anything that she wants. And if that's a part of it, she can do that. And she can do nine other things too. It doesn't have to be.

39:36 This is your one thing. So as long as it's something that she's passionate about I'm here to support. Whatever that is so, so she's sick. So she still got time. He's body though. She's really funny stuff like adult humor and I'm like, oh, she's been hanging out with me like way too long, that he's keeping people like crack up in there. Like do not expect certain things to come out of her mouth so she's always she's always cracking us up and I love her so much but that's also like the passion behind the work is you know, it's her generation that is going to Bear the fruits of our labor of all this hard struggle to make these shifts happen. It's her generation that are really going to get to take it and become something. Different. And I think that's like we got to keep our minds there. To say we're still working progress. We had a lot of City program.

40:23 We had a lot to work through. We're still working through it and that's okay. We don't ever have to feel like we're fully healed from it because it was, you know, it's encoded in us, but we can overcome it. We can continue to show up and questioned it, and battle it, and feed ourselves, and nourish ourselves in every way, shape, and form. And then to really watch, sit back and watch how different that they They are our children and really let them be our teachers. Now to go okay I'm giving them what I didn't get and now I'm going to also learn from them because we're not stomping out their individuality, we're not teaching them to be anything other than selves and there's such a beautiful lesson in there for us to learn those things. Now, from them, which is like full circle, really amazing. For sure, for sure will Katie Wilcox. Thank you so much for being on the road. Thank you for letting me be part of the natural Model Management family.

41:16 And this is just the beginning for us. We have to do so many things. Together 20:23 is our year. We're going to pick something off, I can feel it. Katie thank you so much for joining today. Thank you for listening to the human Beauty movement podcast. Be sure to follow rate and review us wherever you stream podcasts. The human Beauty movement is a community based platform. That cultivates, the beauty of humankind. Check out our work, Chops find us on social media and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more at the human Beauty. Movement.com, thank you so much for being a beautiful human.