Episode 53: Katie Willcox - On Being a Plus-Size Model, A Modeling Agency Founder, and Why Healthy Is The New Skinny

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Hello.
Beautiful human.

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Welcome to the human Beauty
movement podcast.

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I'm your host Jennifer Norman.
Throughout my life, I've been a

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lover and a seeker of all things
beauty from art and dance to

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cosmetics, and fashion to music
and nature.

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But through my own personal
Journey.

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I've come to discover what I
believe is the most beautiful

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thing.
In the universe, the beauty of

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the human soul.
On this podcast, I sit down with

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beautiful humans.
From all corners of the globe

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and all walks of life to learn
how they are living their own

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unique.
Soul Beauty out loud.

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You'll hear from game changers.
Rebels with gray causes stages

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odds, M and Valiant Warriors who
fall down seven times and get up

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eight.
This is the podcast where

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abundant energy flows and
supreme wisdom is bestowed, get

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ready to enjoy the inspiration.
So whenever I'm asked about why

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I started the human Beauty, My
answer is pretty simple, I

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believe that no matter who you
are, you matter yet, this belief

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is often contrasted.
But what I saw play out in media

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and in culture, particularly in
Fashion Beauty and modeling

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Industries.
Fortunately things are changing

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here to join me for a
conversation on the beauty of

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diverse representation is Katie
Wilcox.

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Katie is the founder of natural
Model Management and she's also

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the author of healthy is the new
skinny.

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You Our guide to self-love and a
picture perfect world.

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Katie has been a top plus size
model for 15 years.

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And boy, does she have stories?
All too often Katie, saw the

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ugly side of beauty and she
wanted to change things for the

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better.
Her mission is to promote health

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and happiness within the
modeling industry and to help

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everyone recognize the beauty of
their own natural body shape and

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size.
Welcome Katie, thank you so much

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for having me.
Thank you for joining me all the

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way from Cancun Mexico.
I have a cute little Coffee

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Spot, so you hear her coffee
making the background.

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Yes, cappuccino.
We're just we're just five it

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over here.
Hopefully, you'll get some good

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in Tequila later on, but exactly
for that, I would love for you

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to dial it back to those early
days of what it was like when

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you first started out as a
model.

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Oh my gosh.
Okay.

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So it was 2002 and everything
wasn't even digital yet so it

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was still We'll fill them
cameras.

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So there was there was a lot of
men and Cruz.

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There wasn't women yet so it
would be like male hair and

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makeup nail stylist male
photographers but a lot they'll

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crew was definitely a heavily
male and the industry at that

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point was like Victoria's Secret
America's Next Top Model like

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height of everything.
So you know it was like the most

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toxic culture for girls and
women ever at that point.

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And I when I just wanted to tell
you I was actually working for

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victorious.
Great catalog Vedic here and

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there was 1999 where something
like that when I work for for

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Victoria's Secret catalogs.
Okay go on, go out tonight.

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I also love me just say I would
order from Victoria's Secret

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catalog, obviously and I would
always be shocked when I got the

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clothes because like these do
not look anything like the pants

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that Adriana Lima had on, like
they literally don't even look

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like this at all and high
waters.

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And the belt is different in,
but I had no idea that that's

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the game.
It is so funny, like having

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those memories of because this
isn't making sense.

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I don't understand this and then
getting into the industry.

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So, I was a volley of
competitive volleyball player,

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and was in Seattle, for
volleyball tournament.

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And then went into an agency for
an open call and they would

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like, oh, you'd be perfect for
plus size.

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So, that's when I first heard
about it, I think that was like,

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when it first started in the
market of like, it was a size

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zero to was considered a
standard.

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And so I add a size 10 12, like
athlete was considered, plus I

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And so people were really like,
offended by that Van Dyke, how

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could you be called plus size?
And we heard that for years and

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years and years and years, like,
it just like, people could not

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put their head around it because
it was so distorted to reality,

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like, in reality, a size 10, is
that even remotely close to

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plus-size.
In fact, I'm a perfect weight

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for my height.
I have more muscle mass than the

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average.
I go get my body scan at the

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doctor.
I'm above average at health and

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so, you're like, so what would
that say if I in order to be a

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straight size model?
My only other option I would

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have had to lose 60 pounds.
Like that was the reality of the

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time.
You either were a small frame

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and could starve yourself down
small enough or you then had to

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gain weight to be a size, 14
sample.

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So when I started, they were
like, hey, love your luck.

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If you can get a little bit
bigger, that'd be perfect.

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And I was like, well I can't
lose 60 pounds and then I

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naturally gained 30 pounds going
to college and eating pizza

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through the morning and like in
the pressure 30.

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So I was like oh this is great
like I stopped Sports all of

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that happened and then I started
working a lot but that's when it

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kind of said and we're like, oh
wait, no this doesn't feel good.

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You know in theory we think that
validation will feel good like

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oh as long as I'm working I was
like that's not good for my

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body.
It was too much for my frame and

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it wasn't healthy.
And so I had the opposite

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experience where instead of
getting rewarded for under

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eating or you know, reaching a
small sample size, I kind of got

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rewarded for being a bigger
sample size than my natural

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size, should be in really
thinking, like your livelihood

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depends on, on what your hip
measurement is, is the weirdest.

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Most unhealthy thing you can do
to a young person to anyone, but

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especially a teenage girls and
that's what was happening.

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Didn't matter if it was on the
small side or if you came in as

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a Curve Model, you know, you
were really like the redheaded

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stepchild of the industry is
what we say.

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Like, it was just not even
looked at as like a real model.

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It was like, oh, you're the
plus-size model and any time I

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would go to shoot, that would be
like if it was a group shot, it

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would be four straight size
girls with cute outfits.

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Perfectly style, good makeup.
And then, there'd be just me,

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like, kind of like, in the back
and like some ugly outfit and

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like, you know, like this have
to throw it in and it started

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with Juniors.
And then it's like, worked, its

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way up into women's.
But what we see now is really,

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the shift is, social media is
the demand from plus-sized,

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women who really changed the
whole industry, not just the

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plus size industry.
But their localization of being

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like, I want to see actual woman
that looks like me.

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This is not plus size.
We don't care what you want to

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call it.
This is not plus I was we want

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to See sighs 1820s, that's huh
sighs.

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So their demand to their clients
and they listened.

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So when that happened, what it
did is it created a big divide

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where you got your still, your
standard 02 and then you've got

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an 18 and now they're putting
them next to each other and it's

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too big of a gap is too extreme
for the public to be able to

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process that because one was it
held as ideal for so long and

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then this is a new ideal but
just a completely.

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Like, you're either this boxer,
this box when most people are

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neither of those and were All in
the middle.

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Like we said like of the
spectrum of size and beauty and

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all those things.
So it's been wild ride to see

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how it started and being able to
have been in it when it started

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and seeing the evolution and the
progression of where it's going.

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And I don't know if it's just
like we always joke and say like

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I'm a little bit psychic because
I know exactly where the shift

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is going to happen and I know it
is and I've been right every

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single time as far as like going
out and finding what I know the

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markets going to do before it
happens and then having that

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when the shift happens work,
Clients can go, oh, great, we

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need this.
So it started with being like,

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okay, it's going to go to curve
models, so size 14s where the

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samples getting that.
Then it's going to go larger

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than that.
We have Fuller sizes.

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Now, the big I've been telling
everyone for years and they're

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like you calls it.
Like it's going to go to

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mid-size, so because it's their
extremes like we talked about

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people really want to see just
like average size.

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So when we're looking at women
and size, the real size spectrum

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is a 0 to a 30, not a zero, to a
port.

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Which is what's available in
stores and was talking about.

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That is, if you're looking at,
what's the average size of women

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in the United States, it's a
size 16 at 5 foot 4.

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So the average-sized woman can't
even fit.

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They mainstream brand size range
which economically makes no

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sense.
And we haven't seen any progress

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in terms of those adjustments to
cater to the market and to cater

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to women.
It's still being put on women to

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change their bodies to fit the
clothes and that's my prediction

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in the future.
You could say, you heard it

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here.
That's To change, consumers are

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going to start driving that
market on all size there.

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They don't want to Vision, they
don't, it doesn't matter if

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you're a size, 18 or your size
6, or your attend, or your two,

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women are now going.
We just all want to be the same.

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We don't want the division, we
don't have the, the elitism and

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the superiority complex of the
beauty ideal like we did in the

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Victoria Secret time.
That's how it was so successful.

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That's kind of been diminished.
And so now we really want like a

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quality.
We want our friends to feel

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good, and we want all women to,
like, go fabulous and be able to

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shop and enjoy their beauty.
An expression.

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So it's been a wild ride from,
like, beginning to Middle to

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where we're at and the future
where we're going.

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I think it's going to be even
better.

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Amazing, and I know that you had
started this initiative, which

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is healthy, is the new skinny
because we were finding how

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damaging or how much harm was
being done by traditional

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models.
As you were saying size zero,

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size, two girls that were in
that mid-level were not

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necessarily fitting here or
there, and so, they were either

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instructed, like, you got to
lose.

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Is 30 pounds, which is insane.
Like for anybody, any young girl

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16 years old to be totally got
to lose 30 pounds.

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I remember, even when I was
living in New York and somebody

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suggested I go for modeling,
which to me blew my mind because

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I never felt pretty being
looking like, how I left and

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being only 52.
And then when I went in and they

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said well you know you really
need to lose at least 10 15

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pounds and at 52 at the time I
was 103 pounds like to get down

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to like 85 pounds was a child
was really that would have Very,

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very damaging to my health.
And the only time that I came

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close was when I went through
this massive depression.

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I was you know, going through a
divorce at the time and I

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stopped eating and then I lost
weight and then all of a sudden

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I was like, hey I look good.
This is sick.

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You know that's like I was
literally sick from depression

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and I was sick and thinking that
that's how my body should have

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been.
And I was like, oh well maybe I

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should just stay depressed.
Maybe I should just stop eating.

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And so the you know, the mental
the emotional unwellness that

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comes from this This whole idea
of identity being valued at

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being something that you just
are not naturally supposed to be

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like a and it's a reward system.
So it's not just that of like,

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oh you should lose 30 pounds.
Like if there wasn't a major

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reward for that, no one would do
it.

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You'd be like, no way.
I'm not doing that.

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That's stupid.
But because they brainwash girls

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from the time, they're little
with this Imaging and then the

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messaging that comes with the
beauty ideal and this is Help

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girls really understand and some
workshops will say, okay, let's

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write it down on this board.
What is the perfect woman?

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Look like let's name everything
we can think of and it's

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literally a list of like a
hundred things so you're going.

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Okay.
What do you get if you have all

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of these, what do you get?
Why do people strive so hard to

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have it?
Why do we spend so much to have

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it?
What do we promised by the

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pursuit of these things?
And that's the core message is

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that it's happiness, love
tension, money, guys will like

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you, you'll be popular.
You Have followers.

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Your life is easier, you're in
control, that's all the

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messaging us program through
those images.

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That's the core desire of what
women and girls really want

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especially living in a
patriarchal society is like you

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can be like you want to have
freedom to walk around the

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street in your underwear and
feel fabulous like Victoria's

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Secret.
We're going now put that into

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the real real world.
The social media is great, we're

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girls express that but you can't
do that in real life.

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You can just walk down the
street in your underwear and not

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Be safe.
So we have this, like fantasy,

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what's portrayed of like a
woman's desires and they are

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pulling from the things that we
wish we could have and we really

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wish we could be.
And then they're saying, here's

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how you get it, and by being so
young and vulnerable to believe

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those things and you work with
someone who's like, all you do

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is lose 30 pounds, you get to be
a Victoria's Secret model.

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Like those girls have no shame,
no chance, you know none of us

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did.
That's why we all did horrible

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things to our bodies and the
pursuit of this stuff because

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really We were lacking so much
internally and I think

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collectively when we stopped to
look at that, how we all were

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feeling and how much we were
not, receiving of our own

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happiness, our own fulfillment,
our own safety, our owns like

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self control, self fulfillment.
That's a shocking.

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When you're like, this has been
the work that I feel like our

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generation has done to be the
women.

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We are right now and it's the
Tipping Point because the

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daughters were raising are going
to be very different and but we

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almost had to be like we've been
talking about you all set.

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Through all of that to have this
awareness and this understanding

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of how mislead we were in the
pursuit of the things that we

259
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get to decide if we have or not,
no one else gets to give us

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permission for those things.
And our bodies are not the

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determining factor of, who's
allowed to have those things.

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So it's a, I think it's a power
conversation which I love, but I

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00:13:26,408 --> 00:13:28,700
would love to hear from you did,
what were they like your

264
00:13:28,700 --> 00:13:31,700
marketing meetings, like, in
some of your jobs?

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Like, do you have characters of
like, what you were selling the

266
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girl?
Like, she's like a free.

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She's cool.
Like how what?

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What was it?
Like, I'd love to hear it.

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Well, you know what was
fascinating?

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Is that, you know, early on it
was very much about like, who is

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Victoria Secret?
There was a hole, almost

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booklet.
Put together on, you know, she

273
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was in college, she dated the
quarterback, she enough and so

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you get this Persona, that's
fabricated in the mind.

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But you know, she, you know,
aspired.

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It's kind of like the whole
Ralph Lauren thing.

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It's like be it until you become
it or fake it till you make it

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creates this whole world of Polo
Charles revson said, you know,

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beauty is A jar, what we're
selling is Hope in a jar and so

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00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,400
it's like that fantasy, that
aspiration of a bigger life, a

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00:14:12,408 --> 00:14:14,500
better life.
That is not really truly

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attainable.
But that's keeping us all

283
00:14:16,700 --> 00:14:18,800
wanting and that's where the
money goes.

284
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,100
It's like spending spending
spending to get to this place

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00:14:21,100 --> 00:14:24,400
that you never actually will be
able to obtain and so yeah there

286
00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,000
was a certain amount of Illusion
and theater.

287
00:14:28,100 --> 00:14:31,600
That would go into it all.
There was so much time and

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00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,700
involvement that would go into
just creating.

289
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I would almost say like because
of the way that The

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00:14:37,300 --> 00:14:40,000
merchandising and the stores
would be set up.

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00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,800
We would literally create that
in the office space and have

292
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,400
these fantasy worlds built out
so that we could get into the

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00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,300
emotion and what it was like to
be in like the Christmas catalog

294
00:14:51,300 --> 00:14:53,800
or what have you.
And so you know it's from a

295
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,700
design standpoint and from an
artistic standpoint there is

296
00:14:57,700 --> 00:15:03,200
this expression of beauty and of
you know just like this kind of

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00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,100
pushing the envelope and
Innovation.

298
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And so from that perspective I
think It was enjoyable, it was

299
00:15:08,500 --> 00:15:10,400
wonderful.
And it was very creative.

300
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,900
But then, when you think about
it, I think that the thing that

301
00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:16,400
we never, or we just kind of put
up with, we tolerated because it

302
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:20,200
was so successful, is what it
did to the consumer on the other

303
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,100
side.
Yes, she might have felt like

304
00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:25,300
I'm tapping into this aspiration
of beauty, but what was that

305
00:15:25,300 --> 00:15:26,900
divided?
How did we really feel?

306
00:15:26,900 --> 00:15:29,500
Nobody really talked about that
from a mental health

307
00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:32,300
perspective, we always just
talked about, like, you know,

308
00:15:32,300 --> 00:15:34,800
what was going to be the next
successful campaign and how

309
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,900
gorgeous it was, but there was
this famous Amos study by

310
00:15:37,900 --> 00:15:41,700
Glamour magazine early on
because they had gotten so much

311
00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:45,300
feedback and so much flak about
oh your models on your covers,

312
00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:47,400
they are, you know, they're so
unobtainable.

313
00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:48,900
Why don't you put regular sized
women?

314
00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:51,600
Why don't you put regular
looking people on your covers

315
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,900
and at one point they did and it
was the worst selling magazine

316
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,600
ever and so they were like see.
We told you like nobody wants

317
00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,200
that and that's why we
recommend.

318
00:16:03,700 --> 00:16:05,400
Yeah.
And it's like yeah at that time

319
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,500
the market wasn't ready for And
it's kind of like, we would say

320
00:16:08,500 --> 00:16:12,200
one thing, but our Behavior are
purchasing would tell a

321
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,600
different story.
And so what's really the thing

322
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,000
that is actually going to be
driving the market.

323
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,600
It's what we feel inside.
And so now that things are

324
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,600
shifting culture is definitely
shifting.

325
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,000
And it's because there's less
clout, you know, with the mega

326
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,000
companies and it's more
democratic, we Zusi

327
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,300
personalities, overriding and
you know, the success of the

328
00:16:31,308 --> 00:16:36,200
common person being able to come
and be anything and all it takes

329
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,100
is Evidence and this feeling
that they can and they will and

330
00:16:40,100 --> 00:16:42,300
they'll and they'll have this
passion and drive for what

331
00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:44,300
they're doing.
And so hence the rise of the

332
00:16:44,300 --> 00:16:48,500
influencer, but I feel like the
influencer, so I think it's a

333
00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:53,000
ever-evolving thing.
Yeah, because of face, tuning

334
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,900
apps, and Photoshop apps that
made what models received for

335
00:16:56,900 --> 00:17:00,200
these magazines.
So available to everyone.

336
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,700
Like it was created this monster
of like, oh, anyone can

337
00:17:04,700 --> 00:17:07,000
Photoshop themselves to have a
different body, too?

338
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,599
A different face to have
different hairs, have different

339
00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:13,900
eye color and create these
complete false personas that we

340
00:17:13,900 --> 00:17:17,300
see that are influencers and
influencing.

341
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,900
And isn't that ironic?
That just what we were fighting

342
00:17:19,900 --> 00:17:24,099
against is what the behavior has
become at the individual level.

343
00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:27,099
Yes, it's so fascinating to
explore because I always have

344
00:17:27,099 --> 00:17:29,500
the same questions where there
was one specific plus-size

345
00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:31,800
Grand.
That we shot here in Cancun one

346
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,500
time actually and they sold two
very large women.

347
00:17:35,500 --> 00:17:39,400
So I was a size 6 at the time.
Time and the dresses are just

348
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,000
like, you know, they called them
Ulus.

349
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,000
That's actually what they're
called.

350
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,200
They're like those long just
straight dresses on the beach

351
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,500
and I was like, why are you guys
use my size?

352
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,800
If you sell the like women who
are size 20 and up, you know,

353
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,500
and they're like, oh well we
mark it tested it and we used a

354
00:17:52,500 --> 00:17:57,400
size 18 and we used you and you
outsold by like 80% and I was

355
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,300
like, that is fascinating.
So I think that comes back to

356
00:18:00,300 --> 00:18:04,500
like that conversation about the
aspirational versus the

357
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:06,500
attainable.
Like, you don't really.

358
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,100
And this is The marketing
perspective to be like, well,

359
00:18:09,100 --> 00:18:11,200
how attainable are you wanting
to sell?

360
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,800
Because if it's not
aspirational, even in the real

361
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,300
sense, like, Dove is another
great example.

362
00:18:16,300 --> 00:18:18,900
When Dove came on the scene, I
was so excited because I was

363
00:18:18,900 --> 00:18:23,100
like, oh, finally, I had little
use me like right there like no,

364
00:18:23,100 --> 00:18:24,800
you're too pretty.
And I was like, what do you

365
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:26,300
mean?
And they're like, no, they want

366
00:18:26,300 --> 00:18:28,600
like real women and I was like,
what did that?

367
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,300
I don't get that and I like you
you're not like real enough but

368
00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:34,400
yet the breakdowns that they
would put out for their castings

369
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,000
were like so specific.
It was like no tattoo.

370
00:18:37,100 --> 00:18:39,000
Two's not taxed.
You can't have tattoos.

371
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:40,500
You can't this like in the
beginning.

372
00:18:40,500 --> 00:18:45,200
So it was very curated vision of
what a real woman is which is

373
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,100
she's not attractive.
This is based off of their

374
00:18:49,100 --> 00:18:51,400
vision.
Of how are we going to relate to

375
00:18:51,500 --> 00:18:53,500
Mom's?
And like this is what it is the

376
00:18:53,500 --> 00:18:56,300
marketing is when you break it
down and you have to look at it

377
00:18:56,300 --> 00:18:58,400
and this is what I would teach
in my course is because I'm like

378
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,500
at the end of the day what does
all the messaging that Dove has

379
00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:05,000
which is wonderful.
I love their messaging, I love

380
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,900
their initiatives, they help
girls, but what Any of that have

381
00:19:07,900 --> 00:19:11,300
to do with soap and deodorant
and shampoo and lotion

382
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,600
absolutely effing nothing.
So what would be the reason for

383
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,200
it is because they're directly
targeting a very specific

384
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,300
consumer Group, which is the
women in the household, with the

385
00:19:22,300 --> 00:19:24,800
moms who buy those products for
their home.

386
00:19:24,900 --> 00:19:26,600
They're trying to create a brand
loyalty.

387
00:19:26,700 --> 00:19:29,700
So, when they go shop, they're
picking their brand and like,

388
00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:33,600
once I recognized that, I was
like, wow, that's so smart and

389
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,100
tricky.
I was like, it's not good or bad

390
00:19:36,100 --> 00:19:39,200
because they are Doing good,
things are having good messaging

391
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,500
but it still doesn't mean that
it's fully authentic.

392
00:19:42,500 --> 00:19:44,600
It's still marketing with the
agenda to self.

393
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,800
So, just recognizing things.
What they are.

394
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,400
Do we want that our marketing.
Yes.

395
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,700
But does it have anything to do
with products that they're

396
00:19:50,700 --> 00:19:51,300
selling?
No.

397
00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:54,700
And the company that owns stuff
which is Unilever there.

398
00:19:54,700 --> 00:19:57,900
Other number one, brand is acts
so at the same time dub was

399
00:19:57,900 --> 00:20:00,800
coming out with these.
Like we love women, like their

400
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,100
other company was having the
marketing that was doing worse

401
00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:07,000
harm to women by having the
chauvinistic.

402
00:20:07,100 --> 00:20:10,500
It was branding towards men so
you're like how the two go

403
00:20:10,500 --> 00:20:12,600
together.
Like that's what's so fun when

404
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,700
you actually take the personal
side out of this.

405
00:20:14,700 --> 00:20:18,200
And that's what my book is about
is to say beauty, and body image

406
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,800
and media marketing, you have to
switch it out of the emotional

407
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,900
brain and into your rational
brain because you can really

408
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:26,900
make a lot of progress and
electrically.

409
00:20:26,900 --> 00:20:29,700
If you're willing to ask the
questions of like, why do I

410
00:20:29,700 --> 00:20:31,900
think this way?
How is this box connected this

411
00:20:31,900 --> 00:20:35,300
box and then you're like they
got we and so I teach my

412
00:20:35,300 --> 00:20:38,300
daughter this now too.
So We go to the grocery stores.

413
00:20:38,300 --> 00:20:39,700
Like Mom or they tricking me I
go.

414
00:20:39,700 --> 00:20:40,600
What do you think?
So?

415
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,200
They'll put, you know, cartoon
characters on stuff and she'll

416
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,200
be like, Mom, I want this juice
and I'm like, you don't even

417
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:46,900
like that kind of juice.
You're not going to like it.

418
00:20:46,900 --> 00:20:49,700
She's like, I really I am I'm
going to, I want it just because

419
00:20:49,700 --> 00:20:52,100
of the character and so I taught
her, I go.

420
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:53,500
Okay, I'm gonna teach you
something right now.

421
00:20:53,500 --> 00:20:55,700
It's like they're tricking you
and she's like, what do you

422
00:20:55,708 --> 00:20:57,500
mean?
It was like they were putting it

423
00:20:57,500 --> 00:21:00,800
in this princess bottle because
they know that you're going to

424
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,400
like it and want to buy it and I
promise you you're not going to

425
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,200
like it.
I go still I'm gonna you get one

426
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:06,800
treat.
You choose this?

427
00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:08,500
Fine.
But if you don't like it, you

428
00:21:08,508 --> 00:21:11,200
don't get to have another one
and you got tricked and that's

429
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,000
just the way it goes.
So she got it.

430
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,900
She didn't like it.
And that she from that point on

431
00:21:15,900 --> 00:21:18,900
she's always like Mom, you're
tricking me and I think I told

432
00:21:18,900 --> 00:21:20,400
you you're not going to like
that one.

433
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,100
I'll tell you the flavors you're
going to like but you won't like

434
00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:25,700
that so she's recognizing it
younger to be like oh yeah that

435
00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:28,000
is a trick.
And so I think that's what we're

436
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,300
looking at is.
We're like it really was a bait

437
00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:34,800
and switch system of we're going
to sell youichi poorly made

438
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:39,000
products that we pay.
Professionals to photograph and

439
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,800
make look amazing and beautiful
people and their altered and

440
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:47,600
pinned and photo shops and
presented in a way that looks

441
00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:50,800
amazing.
That's not what you get and

442
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:52,600
we're going to convince you that
you're the problem.

443
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,800
So that when that product shows
up and it looks like shit

444
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,900
because that's what it actually
was to begin with, you're going

445
00:21:58,900 --> 00:22:02,400
to think there's something wrong
with you and the system will

446
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,200
keep thriving even though they
don't have to have Goods that

447
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,500
are quality, So that was the
shift that happened in the 50s

448
00:22:09,500 --> 00:22:11,600
and it wasn't from a needs to a
want system.

449
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,000
So with marketing in the 50s, it
was all about durability and how

450
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,000
things coming off of like people
coming back for more and all of

451
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,400
the you know, Industrial
Revolution was like these

452
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,800
pantyhose.
You can wear them for 10 years.

453
00:22:22,900 --> 00:22:25,800
Like one set of pantyhose like
it was all about like

454
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,600
functionality of products and
how to sell it like this power

455
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,900
window goes up and down and they
would like show that and they

456
00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:34,800
realized it was Edward Bernays.
Who was the first person to

457
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:36,800
Great public relations in New
York?

458
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,600
I realized that you could
partner celebrities with Brands

459
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,500
and put it on the movie and it
would go through the roof and

460
00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:46,200
you don't have to get so good
quality, you just have to make

461
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,800
people want it.
And so understanding the needs

462
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:50,400
to the wants like that happens
to me all the time.

463
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,800
It's psychology.
I will online shop.

464
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,600
I just I love it and sometimes I
just push it in the cart and

465
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,900
then I'm like, no deleting it.
But I felt better that I like

466
00:22:57,900 --> 00:23:01,000
put stuff in the cart and I
don't need it but I want it.

467
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,800
So I have to be conscious of
like, why am I wanting this?

468
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:05,900
How is a soothing and motion
right now.

469
00:23:05,900 --> 00:23:09,200
Like it's very X.
And I think that for women

470
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:14,800
shopping is an outlet for
emotional things, and we love

471
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,200
visual, like I love seeing
colors and patterns, I love just

472
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,200
walking around a store like
that's the thing with men.

473
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,900
Like they hate that like they're
like, oh my God, and they ruin

474
00:23:22,900 --> 00:23:24,200
your shopping experience, a
Target.

475
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:25,800
You're like, just go, you're
going to ruin this for me.

476
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,300
I just want to walk around like
there's something therapeutic

477
00:23:28,300 --> 00:23:32,000
about it in a lot of ways and
I'm been really conscious as of

478
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:33,500
late being like, what is this
again?

479
00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:35,800
What am I getting from this?
Because it makes me feel better

480
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,600
momentarily.
But not long term.

481
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,500
So, like there's psychology of
that wrapped into all of this

482
00:23:42,500 --> 00:23:45,900
retail, consumerism stuff to
that is like the next phase of

483
00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:47,600
understanding.
Once you get past the, like

484
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,500
aspirational.
Like I just want everyone to

485
00:23:49,500 --> 00:23:50,200
think.
I'm cool.

486
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,400
Like, I think that's the younger
woman thing and then as you get

487
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,600
into your like later, 30s 40s,
it's more of like you don't give

488
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,500
a shit about that but yet
they're still connection to it.

489
00:23:59,500 --> 00:24:02,800
That is self soothing or has
been for me and I'm like, kind

490
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,700
of exploring now to that pretty
interesting but there's so much

491
00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:08,500
psychology and all of it,
whether Marketing body image and

492
00:24:08,500 --> 00:24:11,000
then going into like your
personal upbringing and

493
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,400
childhood and all of that is
very complex.

494
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,400
I like when people are willing
to explore the complexities and

495
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,900
ask questions versus the like,
look in the mirror and say how

496
00:24:19,900 --> 00:24:21,700
much you love yourself.
I'll I'm all here.

497
00:24:21,700 --> 00:24:24,300
I'm here for affirmations to but
like if you're not doing the

498
00:24:24,300 --> 00:24:28,100
other work it's just a joke like
you have to be doing the work to

499
00:24:28,100 --> 00:24:32,100
figure out the answers as you're
challenging them by looking in

500
00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:35,000
the mirror and saying no you
know I do look effing good today

501
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,700
like nope.
That negative voice isn't going

502
00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:38,800
to work.
Like I'm you're not tricking me

503
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,100
like I know how this process is
and you're actually connecting

504
00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:44,100
all those dots.
So that's something that I've

505
00:24:44,100 --> 00:24:47,200
just find super fascinating and
love to explore like it

506
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,200
continually amazing amazing.
So when you started natural

507
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:56,300
Model Management back in 2011
what was the real impetus behind

508
00:24:56,300 --> 00:24:57,600
that?
Like you know you had been a

509
00:24:57,608 --> 00:25:00,300
model yourself and then all of a
sudden it's like, you know

510
00:25:00,300 --> 00:25:02,000
there's so many things that you
could have done.

511
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,700
It's like, why did you decide to
start your own modeling agency?

512
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,400
Yeah it was well I tried to get
our The other agency says, with

513
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,100
to care, more about plus-size
and they just didn't have a

514
00:25:12,100 --> 00:25:15,100
passion for it at all.
It was like, oh, we get a client

515
00:25:15,100 --> 00:25:18,100
great, but they didn't actively
go try to find models and I

516
00:25:18,108 --> 00:25:19,900
would see girls all the time.
And I'm like, there's so many

517
00:25:19,900 --> 00:25:21,700
girls, like me doing this, and
it's such a wonderful

518
00:25:21,700 --> 00:25:23,200
opportunity.
If you have a healthy

519
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,100
experience, doing it like, it
can be changed your life for

520
00:25:26,100 --> 00:25:27,600
good.
And so I would try to bring that

521
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,500
to them to be like, oh I could
Scout I could do this.

522
00:25:29,500 --> 00:25:31,900
And I was like why am I doing
all of that for people that

523
00:25:31,900 --> 00:25:34,000
don't really care about if I'm
the one that's passionate about

524
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,200
it and I'm the one wanted to do
it.

525
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:36,900
Why wouldn't I just created for
myself?

526
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,300
Elf and so, yeah.
And I obviously, I was young, I

527
00:25:39,308 --> 00:25:42,800
was 25.
So I was naive as hell too, and

528
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,800
it's great because, like, I
needed that in order to take on

529
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,400
all of this, I had no idea like
what would come with it, are how

530
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,000
as it grew like you know, it
gets more and more complex as

531
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,600
things get bigger and bigger,
but it was just a idea where I

532
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,400
knew there were other girls,
like me, and if I could fill the

533
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,500
void of making sure, that
clients had an option to book

534
00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:05,600
different sizes, then they
couldn't have the excuse anymore

535
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:06,800
of like agencies.
Won't care.

536
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,700
Have girls, so size of clients,
don't book them and clients will

537
00:26:09,700 --> 00:26:11,900
say well we can't book those
models to the agencies, don't

538
00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:13,900
even have them.
So I was like, if you build it

539
00:26:13,900 --> 00:26:16,200
they will come.
So we built it.

540
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,200
And that's exactly what happened
is the market shifted right as

541
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,500
we thought it would and it
started going that direction.

542
00:26:22,500 --> 00:26:26,700
So it's just never stopped since
then which is really wild.

543
00:26:26,900 --> 00:26:31,200
Yeah, it seems like your first
point of differentiation was in

544
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,800
plus size or curvy girl.
Like, I know that there are a

545
00:26:33,808 --> 00:26:36,700
number of different ways that
people speak about girls that

546
00:26:36,700 --> 00:26:40,500
are Normal saw like average and
then you know, more more of the

547
00:26:40,500 --> 00:26:43,300
everyday type person.
And then you also branched out

548
00:26:43,300 --> 00:26:46,900
into other kinds of diversity to
can you talk about that?

549
00:26:46,900 --> 00:26:50,500
Yeah, so for me I've always had
diverse friends and I would talk

550
00:26:50,500 --> 00:26:53,500
to them and be like I don't
understand like why I'm being

551
00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:57,900
cast in the industry is the
ethnic model and I'm Caucasian.

552
00:26:58,900 --> 00:27:02,200
So I'm like how am I like the
ethnic one in the group like

553
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,300
something's off and I was able
to recognize that and it wasn't

554
00:27:05,300 --> 00:27:09,000
until I got on.
Side of like the agent side to

555
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,900
see the breakdowns and this is
back in the day where it was

556
00:27:11,900 --> 00:27:15,600
specifically they say, like,
African-American light-skinned

557
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,400
curly hair or mixed
light-skinned curly hair.

558
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,100
So it was like, very specific to
the type of African American

559
00:27:22,100 --> 00:27:25,300
models that were being allowed
to be seen and they were all

560
00:27:25,300 --> 00:27:28,600
like mulatto with, you know, a
different curl texture to their

561
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,300
hair.
That was a bigger curl texture.

562
00:27:30,300 --> 00:27:33,900
You weren't seeing tight curl
textures or afros or dark tones,

563
00:27:33,900 --> 00:27:36,800
and in same thing with Asian
models.

564
00:27:36,900 --> 00:27:39,600
It's like, you would get one on
the board, maybe two.

565
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,400
And that was like, oh, I we met
our quota.

566
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,200
And I think that's how people
really looked at it where they

567
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,300
were like, oh, we have our three
black models.

568
00:27:46,300 --> 00:27:48,500
So we're good.
And when you look at that,

569
00:27:48,500 --> 00:27:52,200
you're like, nobody would ever
say that about, oh, well, we

570
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,500
have enough, white models were
good.

571
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,600
So it was such a bias that we'd
be like.

572
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,200
You just wouldn't even think to
say that, it's like, that's the

573
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,400
default was Caucasian.
And then everything else was a

574
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,200
box that could be checked and I
just didn't see it that way.

575
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,200
I was like, Now, if I come
across someone who's stunning,

576
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,800
who's going to photograph like a
model, it doesn't matter how

577
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,300
many other models that are the
same race that I have.

578
00:28:15,300 --> 00:28:18,200
Their their own unique
individual person just like any

579
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,300
other model and I never saw it
that way.

580
00:28:20,300 --> 00:28:24,400
So I really love the way that it
looked on my board and I love

581
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,800
psych inspired me till when I
see beauty.

582
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,800
Like a ROM is one of our models
and she's a dark tone and she

583
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,600
has is a gap in her teeth and
she's just like the most

584
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,100
beautiful human being also she's
like an angel on this Earth.

585
00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:39,200
I always brag about Her but
she's so different, her beauty.

586
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,600
So different from mine then I'm
like enamored by it because I'm

587
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,700
like it's so different from Vine
that like I don't see myself in

588
00:28:45,700 --> 00:28:49,600
her at all.
And yet I love looking at her

589
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,800
images, I love the way her skin
photographs, I love her smile,

590
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,000
like I love studying and looking
at her photos and I think there

591
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,200
was this idea that unless
someone can see themselves in

592
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,700
someone else or aspire to be
someone else, and they can't be

593
00:29:02,700 --> 00:29:06,000
inspired by a photo.
And I'm like, that's changing to

594
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,200
where women are now.
All being as we found more self

595
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,800
love in our own selves, we're
actually seeing an appreciating

596
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,400
diverse Beauty and others that
are different from us.

597
00:29:15,700 --> 00:29:19,200
We're like so, instead of
critiquing it or putting it down

598
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,400
because it's different.
We're actually like, wow like I

599
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,700
love her.
Look like, she's so gorgeous.

600
00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:26,700
I love her skin.
And like, how that has an effect

601
00:29:26,700 --> 00:29:28,400
of my daughter?
It's mixed.

602
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,800
So her dad is half black and she
has his exact skin tone.

603
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,600
So she's very like, caramely it
gets super tan and I never

604
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,800
noticed certain things.
Like, she's six and show, she

605
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,800
would get a doll.
And she's like, Mom, this party

606
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,700
has my skin and then, and it was
like a Barbie that's like, way

607
00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:45,100
darker than her.
It was funny.

608
00:29:45,300 --> 00:29:47,000
Like, that's how she liked the
saw herself.

609
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,600
Like yeah, she's so beautiful.
I think we make sure like, even

610
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,500
with all the models that we
have, we constantly are like,

611
00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:55,600
oh, she's gorgeous.
And there's no conversation

612
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,100
about size or no conversation
about skin.

613
00:29:58,100 --> 00:30:02,000
Like, everybody's getting the
same commentary and so because

614
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,700
of that she, when she picks
dolls and she picks toys, they

615
00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:08,900
happen to be diverse.
So so you're like there's a

616
00:30:08,900 --> 00:30:13,000
connection to that to wear for,
we grew up only seeing blond

617
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,100
white women, I still didn't see
anyone who looks like me and I'm

618
00:30:16,100 --> 00:30:18,600
Caucasian.
So I cannot imagine how that

619
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,700
must have felt for the vast
majority of women who are

620
00:30:21,700 --> 00:30:24,700
ethnic.
I'm like, it's just shocking to

621
00:30:24,700 --> 00:30:28,100
not, go to not even, see
yourself at all, let alone like

622
00:30:28,100 --> 00:30:29,700
not seeing someone that kind of
looks like you.

623
00:30:29,700 --> 00:30:31,800
I mean, there, it was all white
women represented.

624
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,200
So it's just about, I think,
compassion and Consciousness,

625
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,600
where you can really have
empathy to Put yourself in

626
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,200
someone else's shoes really
fully and I think when you have

627
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,800
diverse groups of women and
people around you that you talk

628
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,800
to and you listen and you hear
their stories and you really

629
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,700
like paused put yourself in that
position like when they win you

630
00:30:53,700 --> 00:30:56,800
feel that too?
We were like did it like we did

631
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,900
something for Humanity.
This one like and they cry when

632
00:31:00,900 --> 00:31:03,200
they see their photos and you
see little girls looking at

633
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,000
their photos and so with a lot
of the like stuff in our

634
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,200
industry, your deal Lot of egos.
You deal with a lot of just like

635
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,200
personalities and that's the
draining part on the internal

636
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:17,100
side, but the external side is
the whole point behind doing it

637
00:31:17,100 --> 00:31:18,800
is.
It's not about the few.

638
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,900
On the inside, it's about the
amount of people that see an

639
00:31:21,900 --> 00:31:25,400
image that you helped put out
into the world, that it affects

640
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,000
input a ripple effect outward
and so its bigger than that.

641
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,900
So it's that to me is always
been my focus and I think that's

642
00:31:31,900 --> 00:31:35,500
why we continue to evolve
because I listened very closely

643
00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:38,900
and I'm very in tune with What
women are saying and what the

644
00:31:38,900 --> 00:31:42,400
pulses of what we want, and what
Young Girls are saying and what

645
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,100
they want, they want one group.
They don't want to be labeled

646
00:31:46,100 --> 00:31:49,400
and separated any longer.
So, as long as they're driving,

647
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,700
that and consumers will continue
to drive the market that will be

648
00:31:52,700 --> 00:31:56,000
the future because of them.
Absolutely.

649
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,600
And so being on the Forefront of
Trends as you are, I started the

650
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,900
game changers board.
Yes.

651
00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:03,700
Okay.
You want to tell everybody about

652
00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:05,900
that?
Yeah, so the game changer is so

653
00:32:05,900 --> 00:32:08,900
this is like the next That I
really see when it comes to

654
00:32:08,908 --> 00:32:10,900
marketing.
So, because everything is so

655
00:32:10,900 --> 00:32:15,300
saturated with influencers and
fake images and fake

656
00:32:15,300 --> 00:32:18,400
personalities and like, you
know, influence was in the wild

657
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,800
is like the funniest page ever
because it's ridiculous and we

658
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,600
all know it.
So it's about acknowledging that

659
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,100
that anyone can pretend now
because they've been given a

660
00:32:28,100 --> 00:32:31,200
template that's really easy to
copy, no matter what it is, you

661
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,200
can literally copy any kind of
persona because you can just

662
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,900
follow with someone else has
done and then that's like a Is

663
00:32:36,900 --> 00:32:40,100
copy paste.
So authenticity is actually very

664
00:32:40,100 --> 00:32:44,400
rare and it's very noticeable.
Now, when you come across it

665
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,800
because everything else is such
a facade and people tend to lose

666
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,400
their authenticity because they
are really curating themselves

667
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,500
so heavily.
So, but they look at marketing

668
00:32:52,500 --> 00:32:55,200
and marketing value, you know,
Beauty, you're like, yeah, okay,

669
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,600
but it's getting boring.
It just is, everyone has the

670
00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,300
same face.
Everybody's getting the same

671
00:32:59,300 --> 00:33:02,000
plastic surgery.
Everybody's doing the same

672
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:03,700
filters.
Everyone does their makeup the

673
00:33:03,700 --> 00:33:05,300
same?
I'm like, I know I'm like

674
00:33:05,300 --> 00:33:07,200
getting old, but they're certain
A breeze.

675
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:08,900
I'm like, who's that?
I thought there was that other

676
00:33:08,900 --> 00:33:10,600
girl, like you look exactly the
same.

677
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,500
Like, no, that's so insulting.
Like, okay, this is getting

678
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:15,300
difficult for me to tell the
difference.

679
00:33:15,300 --> 00:33:18,500
Like that's it strange.
So with branding and you're

680
00:33:18,500 --> 00:33:20,300
like, you have to come up with
something different every

681
00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:23,500
season, every campaign you want
to try to get some kind of

682
00:33:23,500 --> 00:33:26,400
attention for you.
Put a lot of money into it as a

683
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,300
for marketing and you want to
have an outcome, that brings

684
00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:34,000
value to the brand and value is
no longer coming from Aesthetics

685
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:35,600
only.
And that's what you were talking

686
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,500
about.
Where value Is coming from

687
00:33:37,500 --> 00:33:40,800
people and coming from
authenticity that not everyone

688
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,200
can fake.
So brands are going to always

689
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,100
have models that sell like you
know, the products which is

690
00:33:46,100 --> 00:33:47,300
fine.
But there's also going to be a

691
00:33:47,300 --> 00:33:50,200
new way of where they're going
to need storytellers that are

692
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,600
going to be like hey this person
does this this and this and

693
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,400
she's awesome.
And she's funny and you're

694
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,700
seeing stuff like that comedians
getting campaigns and like,

695
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,200
because they're funny and
they're doing something totally

696
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,600
different than what people have
done in marketing before for

697
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,700
women and having a different
approach.

698
00:34:06,900 --> 00:34:09,699
To the same stuff like it is
refreshing.

699
00:34:09,699 --> 00:34:13,000
So there's more opportunities
than ever before for people to

700
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,800
go out and be game changers.
Even if you don't have a lot of

701
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,699
following like that's misguided
to it, doesn't matter how many

702
00:34:19,699 --> 00:34:22,699
followers you have, if the work
you do is genuine and authentic

703
00:34:22,699 --> 00:34:25,199
and Powerful.
That's what the value is going

704
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:27,199
to be when partnering with a
brand.

705
00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:30,100
So it's not there yet but you
start to notice more and more

706
00:34:30,100 --> 00:34:32,500
brands are doing that.
Like you said, they're using

707
00:34:32,500 --> 00:34:35,699
normal people, that are cool.
Like, we just saw, we use one.

708
00:34:35,699 --> 00:34:38,199
I think was a it was a Dickies
ad, and it was like this

709
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:40,800
producer, this like guy, those
also skater and have this like,

710
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,400
big curly hair and he was
Mexican and lives in LA and he

711
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,500
wears Dickies and it was like a
real guy, who would totally wear

712
00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:50,900
that and he looked cool wearing
it and he, this was his work and

713
00:34:50,900 --> 00:34:53,500
this is like what he does for a
living and they were featuring

714
00:34:53,500 --> 00:34:56,100
that and it's like you can't
fake that with a model, you

715
00:34:56,100 --> 00:34:57,800
know?
And and you look at that

716
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,100
progression, same thing with
like movies and who are all the

717
00:35:01,100 --> 00:35:03,700
leads and movies, you know like
especially the high school

718
00:35:03,700 --> 00:35:05,700
movies.
It was all like models who are

719
00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:10,300
like 30 but High school kids and
they're like it loses something.

720
00:35:10,300 --> 00:35:14,600
There's something that you're
like, where's the Victoria's

721
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,700
Secret time where you're like
everyone wanted to be that.

722
00:35:16,700 --> 00:35:20,400
We see that now and it's like
you kind of do an eye roll.

723
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:25,000
And so you really are starting
to see, like non-traditional

724
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,500
leads being cast and shows and
movies that would never normally

725
00:35:29,500 --> 00:35:31,700
be cast as weeds.
And those shows are doing really

726
00:35:31,700 --> 00:35:35,000
well and the writing is getting
super funny because it's a

727
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,500
different perspective that none
of us have I've been exposed to

728
00:35:37,500 --> 00:35:40,300
but we're relating to in a way
we're like, yeah, I have this, I

729
00:35:40,300 --> 00:35:43,400
have a friend who's just like
that, and I do that too.

730
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,600
And so we're really realizing
like looks tell have been told

731
00:35:46,700 --> 00:35:49,800
telling a very specific story
that is not real and I think

732
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,500
you've probably experienced that
when you get judged for the way

733
00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:55,700
you look or people make
assumptions about you of Italy.

734
00:35:55,700 --> 00:35:57,800
You look have this me all the
time and they're like you're not

735
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,100
at all what I thought you're
here because I go much better.

736
00:36:01,100 --> 00:36:04,700
They're like yeah, I know.
But I was like sorry that I just

737
00:36:04,700 --> 00:36:06,900
have intense features.
It can make me look mean but I I

738
00:36:06,900 --> 00:36:10,500
was I'm not like so it's kind of
funny how people are really

739
00:36:10,500 --> 00:36:13,600
taking him back, if you're kind
and they happen to think that

740
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,700
you're attractive or you don't
care about Aesthetics as much

741
00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:19,200
because you just modeling your
job.

742
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,200
But like when you're not
modeling you're like a normal

743
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,600
person who wear sweatpants and
like doesn't wear makeup like

744
00:36:24,700 --> 00:36:26,800
those are.
That's real, that's real life.

745
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,300
And so I think there's value to
that and I think people really

746
00:36:29,300 --> 00:36:34,700
appreciate it and it makes it a
more welcoming experience to

747
00:36:34,700 --> 00:36:38,500
shop from someone who's honest
and Funny and isn't perfect.

748
00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:41,900
And is okay with existing or
something, really, valuable

749
00:36:41,900 --> 00:36:43,100
there.
And I think that's going to be

750
00:36:43,100 --> 00:36:46,000
the future.
Hmm, I'm curious if your

751
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,500
daughter came to you one day and
said, Mommy, I want to be a

752
00:36:48,500 --> 00:36:50,400
model.
What would your reaction be?

753
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,500
Oh, my gosh.
Well, she is quite the little

754
00:36:53,500 --> 00:36:55,300
actress.
So she tells me she wants to do

755
00:36:55,300 --> 00:36:58,700
acting and she's and I'm like
and she's so fun.

756
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,500
So it's really hard as I'm
stuttering because she's grown

757
00:37:02,500 --> 00:37:04,900
up around it.
Yeah and she's really good at

758
00:37:04,900 --> 00:37:06,500
modeling.
So she's model with me a bunch

759
00:37:06,500 --> 00:37:08,500
for the Maybe in different
things and they're like, oh my

760
00:37:08,500 --> 00:37:10,600
God, she's like a pro.
I'm like, well she's literally

761
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,800
grown up, watching it.
It's like kids who have like a

762
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,100
professional soccer player as a
parent and then their pro at

763
00:37:16,100 --> 00:37:18,100
like eight, you're like, yeah,
it's unfair.

764
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,900
She gets like professional like
exposure from the time she could

765
00:37:21,900 --> 00:37:24,700
walk, so she doesn't so
naturally.

766
00:37:24,700 --> 00:37:27,000
And I asked her and be like, oh
do you want to be a model?

767
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:45,400
And she's like now,
This is what I was talking

768
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,600
about.
It was like a snowstorm and they

769
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,300
needed it and I was like, okay,
the house wasn't like perfectly

770
00:37:51,300 --> 00:37:52,300
put together.
I'm like, whatever.

771
00:37:52,700 --> 00:37:54,500
I'm just gonna film it and it's
just going to be.

772
00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:57,800
I go we'll get style point and
again being yourself is always

773
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,900
liked so much more valuable.
So we sat down with her and I

774
00:37:59,908 --> 00:38:02,500
was like, okay, she loves to
make up knock knock jokes so I'm

775
00:38:02,500 --> 00:38:04,100
like okay let's do some
knock-knock jokes.

776
00:38:04,100 --> 00:38:05,900
And she's like, okay, knock
knock.

777
00:38:05,900 --> 00:38:07,800
I don't like who they are.
She's like lemons.

778
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,200
I'm like lemons who she's like
time to squeeze my lemons.

779
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,200
I'm like what?
Like words.

780
00:38:13,500 --> 00:38:15,800
So so she's mixed up.
But by what she looks at.

781
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,100
So there's just like, knock, not
going to make who's there and

782
00:38:18,100 --> 00:38:20,500
she's like snowman because we
had a snowman salt and pepper

783
00:38:20,500 --> 00:38:23,100
shaker and she's like, I go
snowman who she's like snowman,

784
00:38:23,100 --> 00:38:25,100
melts and then she's like
cracking up.

785
00:38:25,100 --> 00:38:28,100
So we put that in our video,
we'd like jumped over the couch

786
00:38:28,100 --> 00:38:30,900
and rolled on the floor and be
like you know it just funny

787
00:38:30,900 --> 00:38:35,100
stuff like that because kids are
the best representation as

788
00:38:35,100 --> 00:38:37,800
models and actors because they
don't have self judgement or

789
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,800
self-criticism.
They just they just do it.

790
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:42,900
They just fully.
Commit and they're just fully

791
00:38:42,900 --> 00:38:44,700
doing it.
And I'm like, wow.

792
00:38:44,700 --> 00:38:48,300
So I really study her like that.
And I learn a lot like from her,

793
00:38:48,300 --> 00:38:51,100
but I definitely do not ever.
I think, when you're in the

794
00:38:51,100 --> 00:38:54,300
industry as a parent, you have a
different Viewpoint where you,

795
00:38:54,300 --> 00:38:56,300
you're not trying to live
vicariously through her.

796
00:38:56,300 --> 00:38:58,400
So you're making sure that
anything she wants to do is

797
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,300
100%.
If she wants to do it, you don't

798
00:39:00,300 --> 00:39:02,600
need the validation for it.
So you're literally, like, just

799
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:03,500
want to do, is just want to do
it.

800
00:39:03,500 --> 00:39:05,700
So that's kind of how we go with
it.

801
00:39:05,700 --> 00:39:09,200
But, yeah, I'm letting her kind
of decide and when I was

802
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,500
pregnant with her, people would
be like, oh my God.

803
00:39:11,700 --> 00:39:14,600
Is going to be so gorgeous.
I bet she should be a model and

804
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,000
I'd be like, well, she's a
fetus.

805
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,800
So maybe we should let her be
born first and then, let her

806
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,000
decide what she would like to
do.

807
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,500
Like, we also look at the
pressure already, before she's

808
00:39:23,500 --> 00:39:27,200
born already has pressure to be
beautiful and I'm like, so I'm

809
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,700
very mindful of that and letting
her decide that she can do

810
00:39:30,700 --> 00:39:33,400
anything that she wants.
And if that's a part of it, she

811
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,300
can do that.
And she can do nine other things

812
00:39:35,300 --> 00:39:36,700
too.
It doesn't have to be.

813
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:39,300
This is your one thing.
So as long as it's something

814
00:39:39,300 --> 00:39:41,500
that she's passionate about I'm
here to support.

815
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,800
Whatever that is so, so she's
sick.

816
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,900
So she still got time.
He's body though.

817
00:39:47,900 --> 00:39:50,800
She's really funny stuff like
adult humor and I'm like, oh,

818
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,400
she's been hanging out with me
like way too long, that he's

819
00:39:53,500 --> 00:39:55,300
keeping people like crack up in
there.

820
00:39:55,300 --> 00:39:57,800
Like do not expect certain
things to come out of her mouth

821
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,000
so she's always she's always
cracking us up and I love her so

822
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,100
much but that's also like the
passion behind the work is you

823
00:40:04,100 --> 00:40:08,100
know, it's her generation that
is going to Bear the fruits of

824
00:40:08,100 --> 00:40:11,400
our labor of all this hard
struggle to make these shifts

825
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,600
happen.
It's her generation that are

826
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,900
really going to get to take it
and become something.

827
00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:18,100
Different.
And I think that's like we got

828
00:40:18,100 --> 00:40:21,200
to keep our minds there.
To say we're still working

829
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,200
progress.
We had a lot of City program.

830
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,500
We had a lot to work through.
We're still working through it

831
00:40:25,500 --> 00:40:27,500
and that's okay.
We don't ever have to feel like

832
00:40:27,500 --> 00:40:30,700
we're fully healed from it
because it was, you know, it's

833
00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:33,000
encoded in us, but we can
overcome it.

834
00:40:33,100 --> 00:40:36,500
We can continue to show up and
questioned it, and battle it,

835
00:40:36,500 --> 00:40:40,000
and feed ourselves, and nourish
ourselves in every way, shape,

836
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,300
and form.
And then to really watch, sit

837
00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:47,600
back and watch how different
that they They are our children

838
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,300
and really let them be our
teachers.

839
00:40:49,300 --> 00:40:53,500
Now to go okay I'm giving them
what I didn't get and now I'm

840
00:40:53,500 --> 00:40:56,700
going to also learn from them
because we're not stomping out

841
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,500
their individuality, we're not
teaching them to be anything

842
00:40:59,500 --> 00:41:02,000
other than selves and there's
such a beautiful lesson in there

843
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,500
for us to learn those things.
Now, from them, which is like

844
00:41:05,500 --> 00:41:09,200
full circle, really amazing.
For sure, for sure will Katie

845
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,400
Wilcox.
Thank you so much for being on

846
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,700
the road.
Thank you for letting me be part

847
00:41:13,700 --> 00:41:15,900
of the natural Model Management
family.

848
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,200
And this is just the beginning
for us.

849
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:22,200
We have to do so many things.
Together 20:23 is our year.

850
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,000
We're going to pick something
off, I can feel it.

851
00:41:26,100 --> 00:41:28,800
Katie thank you so much for
joining today.

852
00:41:31,100 --> 00:41:34,400
Thank you for listening to the
human Beauty movement podcast.

853
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,600
Be sure to follow rate and
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854
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,700
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855
00:41:40,707 --> 00:41:44,100
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That cultivates, the beauty of

856
00:41:44,100 --> 00:41:46,900
humankind.
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857
00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:50,300
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858
00:41:50,308 --> 00:41:53,900
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859
00:41:53,900 --> 00:41:58,300
Movement.com, thank you so much
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