Heal Your Relationships with Lair Torrent

Jennifer Norman: Hello, beautiful humans. Welcome to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Now on today's show, we are going to answer the question, question. What does it take to have a healthy relationship? And I've always wondered why do relationships have to be so damn hard.

My guest today knows a thing or two about guiding people through those seemingly murky waters of love, sex, and romance. Let me introduce you to Lair Torrent. Now Lair is an author, he's a speaker and a licensed marriage and family therapist, but he's not your mama's therapist. In fact, he was born into abject poverty to a fifteen-year-old mother, and he himself saw very little in the way of love and connection between romantic partners.

But that all changed. So now he is a licensed marriage and family therapist and a leading voice in relationship healing. He has a new book out called The Practice of Love, which has been described as a masterclass in relationship repair. I would like to welcome Lair to the show.

Lair Torrent: Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

Jennifer Norman: Oh, so glad to have you here now. If there's one word that is most used and abused in the English language, I would have to say that that word is love.

Lair Torrent: Yeah. It gets kicked around a bit, and it's Shocking to me that we only have one word for I know. Love. Right? Eskimos have a hundred words for snow.

We have one word to describe how we feel about one another.

Jennifer Norman: You actually went through quite a bit in your early life that led you to what you're doing today. Do you wanna share a little bit about that?

Lair Torrent: Sure. So my mom was fifteen when she had me. Was originally given to foster care. She got me back when I was about four months old. It was abject poverty by and large.

And so when you have that In your background, your experience is a very pragmatic one. And so romantic love really wasn't ruling the day. Although I was seeing TV and hearing in songs and this idealized form of romance that we were being sold, and I wasn't seeing any of that. I was seeing lots of divorce and discord and things like that. And given that sort of pragmatic upbringing and that idealized love, I'll take the idealized love.

How do I get there? It was kind of the question that I think was endemic within me as I grew up and I didn't realize that as I grew through my teens and my early twenties that I was becoming sort of this incurable romantic. I think in retrospect, trying to heal something wounded in me, I was trying to fill this piece I wanted to fill, which was, how do we love each other? How do I make a relationship really work and stand the test of time? Those were the words in my mouth, but that was kind of the idea of it for me.

And as I went through my training and then went to my internship, they sat me down and said, what kind of clients do you wanna work with? And I said, I think I wanna work with couples. And they said, good. We'll give them all to you because we hate working with them. And I said, great. It's, yeah.

And so they filled my practice with couples. And so in the beginning, I was killing it. In the sessions, it was going really, really well. And then I like to say before my clients got to the elevator bank at my New York office, that shit was going off the rails. And they would come back in and they would be dejected because they couldn't make it work outside the office.

What we were working on inside the office didn't translate very well. And I came to the conclusion, I asked my colleagues, I asked my teachers, I asked mentors, what is this that that I'm experiencing? They said, well, welcome to couples therapy. And I said, surely, that can't be the answer. So I went to my big mentor, this woman, Evan Imber-Black. And I say to her, you've been on Oprah. She's like, I've been on Oprah twice.

Jennifer Norman: Mhmm.

Lair Torrent: She's big in marriage and family therapy, and I went to her with this problem. And she said to me, welcome to couples therapy. And I said, you've been on Oprah twice. That can't be your answer. And she said, well, go and figure something out for yourself.

And I said, you get to do that? She said, sure. Now I don't think she actually thought I was gonna do it, but that was sort of the growth of me as a person, as a clinician that finally became the book, The Practice of Love.

Jennifer Norman: Interesting. Interesting. What are some of the most common themes that you see in your practice?

Lair Torrent: Well, boilerplate is always we have communication problems.

Jennifer Norman: Communication.

Lair Torrent: Yeah. That's the big one. Right? And, or we can't communicate about the money or about the sex or about the kids or whatever it might be. And so boil it down.

They say, we have communication problems. And to a person, I will say that's actually not true. And they get a little frustrated, and they're like, we've been to the house. And and I say, nope. You communicated the fact that you have communication problems to me just fine.

You have full articulation of the English language. What you have is a Parts of Self problem. And they're like...

Jennifer Norman: What do you even mean by that?

Lair Torrent: What are you talking about? And I'm like, Yeah. The part of you that's showing up to the conversation with your partner is part of you that's not open to connection, that's not open to compassion, empathy, and understanding. A part of you that's showing up is either your wounded self, your wounded child part, or one of your protector parts, And you're expecting connection, compassion, empathy, and understanding. You're in a part of yourself that doesn't do that.

The way I explain it to them is I think about your cell phone. Right? And you have all these apps on your cell phone, You mindfully choose the app that you wanna use for the particular job that you're gonna do. So if you wanna send an email, do you go into your Instagram? No.

Instagram does not offer us that tool, so we don't do that. But if you're in your Instagram and you're trying to send an email, how you doing? Not great. It's the same thing for couples trying to communicate about any subject. I don't care what it is.

If you're in the wrong aspect of yourself, the wrong part of your personality, then you are up the creek without a paddle because you're in a part of yourself that doesn't do that. You can't see your partner as anything other than someone to protect yourself against. And so you're wanting closeness, but you're in an aspect of self that only creates distance. And this is the frustration most couples face on every subject, and it's a thing we as clinicians are not talking about enough with regard to communication. And it's something I unpack in my book, and it's the second practice, mindfulness being the first one.

Jennifer Norman: Mhmm. It's interesting because I remember being married as a young twenty-something-year-old, And I would hear the words back, I'm unhappy. And I was like, well, what do you mean by that? I'm unhappy. And so there was a lack of ability for him to articulate beyond I'm unhappy, and it could have been that he just wasn't able to express himself and those feelings, those deep-seated feelings.

And so, like, a therapist could probably be able to help unpack those things that they're really feeling. But, oh, I think just like the word love, people don't really have too many words for what they're feeling. And so helping with that communication to have that self-awareness, what are you feeling? What are you hoping to achieve? What are you hoping to express to the other person, could be really, really helpful, especially if you just feel like you don't have the right words to express how you're feeling.

Lair Torrent: Well, it's certainly true, especially for men, and I will speak for all men because I am one. But by and large now I was raised in a house full of women, so my outlook and my wiring is a little different.

Jennifer Norman: Mhmm.

Lair Torrent: And I think it certainly lent to a healthy relationship with my wife of twenty-three years and certainly lent itself to being a decent clinician. Now most men typically don't have as broad an emotional vocabulary. We are not necessarily taught that that's okay to feel those feelings. Right. And to be able to talk about them is that's what are you even saying now.

And, again, I'm painting with broad gender strokes here.

Jennifer Norman: Yeah. And do you think women are expecting that? Like, how come you can't feel the way that I feel or express yourself?

Lair Torrent: We are a bit self-centered in that regard because by and large, I think women tend to do that better. You guys tend to have a broader emotional vocabulary. You tend to be allowed, quote-unquote, to go to those places more than we are. Again, I'm I'm painting with broad gender strokes.

It might not be everybody, but it seems like most women are better at it than we are. And frankly, I think it's why you guys live longer than we do.

Jennifer Norman: Very well. Your emotions will keep you living longer because only the good die young, I suppose.

Lair Torrent: Well, you get to express all that. You get the stress out.

Jennifer Norman: Yes. That's true. That's true. You're not keeping it bottled inside, which can lead to all sorts of heart problems.

Lair Torrent: All kinds of heart problems.

Jennifer Norman: Oh my goodness. Like you were saying before, you are a big proponent of mindfulness. And so as a dude, what would you say mindfulness is? What is your definition of mindfulness.

Lair Torrent: Paying attention on purpose.

Jennifer Norman: Mhmm.

Lair Torrent: Paying attention on purpose to your thoughts and to your feelings. Noticing what's going on. Look. It's hardwired into our DNA. Constantly be looking externally. Yeah.

Because the small fibers of our existence is in the amygdala. We gotta make sure there's no saber tooth tigers chasing us down back to the cave. Mhmm. So we're looking externally, constantly perusing the horizon line. It's another turn on the dial for us to stop, push pause, turn off our autopilot, and look.

We also have to take into consideration the brain is taking in about four hundred billion bits of information per second. Okay? And so the brain wants to sort that stuff. Safe, unsafe, all places that it sorts it, but that puts us on autopilot.

Mindfulness turns off the autopilot app. It stops us from looking externally, and we begin to look internally now. That's a skill. It's a simple one, but it's really easy to forget. So mindfulness for me is stopping, pushing pause, and taking an inner inventory.

What am I thinking? What am I feeling? Now if we are looking at any relationship, romantic or otherwise, that we wanna have some version of success in, the first question you're gonna ask yourself and the most powerful question you can ask is what part of me shows up here.

Jennifer Norman: Interesting. And so in terms of pushing pause and getting more mindful on being more aware of what those things are going on inside. How do you teach somebody how to do that that's not used to doing that?

Lair Torrent: So there are a number of ways to do it. And the thing Jon Kabat-Zinn has written tons of books on the subject. There's mindfulness-based based cognitive behavioral therapy classes we can take to learn. We can learn meditation. We can go to yoga.

Be where you just sit and notice. And so we get in the habit of doing that every day, three to four times a day, just beginning to notice, stopping, what am I thinking? What am I feeling? I also, I have people do the five senses drill. Right?

Checking in with all of your five senses and one of those little stoppages, one of those mindful moments. I also have them do things like take a mindful ride or walk home and notice the things that you've never noticed before. Oh my God. There's a laundry right there on there. There's a cleaner right there on that corner.

I had no...because we're on autopilot, we miss things all of the time. Taking a mindful shower, eating a mindful meal, paying attention to every moment of that meal is a really great way to kind of build that mindful muscle. We could sit on a meditation cushion for twenty minutes in the morning and twenty minutes a day, but most people kinda don't wanna do that by and large. Some people do. Why do we do that?

Well, we do that so that when we go out into our lives, we will have residual mindfulness. Right? Well, we can get that mindfulness right now. Mhmm. We can just decide to begin to pay attention.

We don't have to sit on a meditation cushion. You don't have to take those three or four pauses every day, every three minutes every day. You can just get in the habit of stopping and noticing. What am I thinking and feeling as I sit here and I speak with this woman on her birthday? Happy birthday.

Jennifer Norman: Hi. Thank you, Lair. Thank you for seeing me.

Lair Torrent: I was mindful and aware it was your birthday, Ms. Norman.

Jennifer Norman: You're mindful and aware. It is my birthday, everybody. Yes. I'm interviewing Lair. I'm spending my birthday with him. There is no place where I would rather be than right here, right now. Why don't you tell us about different practices that go into relationships that you share with people. I know the first is mindfulness.

Lair Torrent: Sure. Mindfulness is there because we have to stop and we have to push pause. If we wanna onboard any new habit, we first have to become self-aware, And I don't know how we do that without self-awareness, so mindfulness has to be the first practice. Second practice, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, is what Part of me shows up? Because if I show up in the wrong aspect of self, I'm up the creek again without a paddle.

Right? We have to make sure that we show up in a part of ourselves It is open to connection, love, and compassion. The third practice is the Narrative. What story have I been telling about my partner? Right?

Because those thoughts become feelings. Those feelings become thoughts. And pretty soon, those thoughts that I just had, those one-off thoughts I was just having, that's just who I believe you to be. And if we aren't mindful and aware of the thoughts that we're having, we are mentally rehearsing to fall out of love if we're not careful. Right?

Yeah. You have to be sure that we're populating that narrative with things that are fair, loving, compassionate, empathetic, and true.

Jennifer Norman: Mhmm. Yeah. It's interesting because a lot of times if people get into an argument, I've noticed a woman or a man will go to their best friend to somebody that they're talking to. Oh, you wouldn't believe what he or she just did, so and so. And then that's the thing that that person remembers about that person.

And so it's interesting. I recall, like, later in my relationships, I'd be like, I'm not going to tell anybody about this. I'm not telling my parents. I'm not telling my sister about it, because they are big grudge holders, and they will never be able to look at him the same again. And I always want that person to be seen through eyes of love, and we will work this out ourselves.

I don't need everybody, all the family members, all the friends ganging up on said person because of this issue that we're currently having now, which is just a moment in time. I don't want that to carry forward and have residue over anything else that's going on in life. So that was one very important lesson that I learned. Hopefully, that helps some people that are listening.

Lair Torrent: That's right. Well it, look. It's that information, that closed loop of information that you hand them and this experience that you're having and a bad one, it influences their narrative about that person. Exactly. Their immediate belief goes to, I wanna protect my girl.

So Mhmm. You're an asshole. You're a jerk.

Jennifer Norman: Yeah.

Lair Torrent: And it takes a little while to untease that. Now when I'm working with a couple who has been fortifying a negative narrative about one another because of life stresses and not being mindful and aware of the parts they're telling those stories. Well, it takes a little while to untease that.

Jennifer Norman: Mhmm.

Lair Torrent: And it's a really hard job to help people reauthor a new narrative. That's one of the practices we refer in the book is its ability to retell a new story, to reauthor a different tale.

Jennifer Norman: I was just listening to a podcast yesterday where Aawoman and a man were having a really hard...they were young, engaged. The fellow didn't really want to go through with it. The wife felt obligated to go through it because her biological clock is ticking. Everybody expects her to get married. All of her friends are getting married, and he's trying to convince her that he's not the one and he's not, and she's really pressuring him.

So what does he do? He situates himself so that he is found in bed with two women, and he said that he did it for her own benefit so that she would see what a bad guy and what a bad choice he is. Wow. Yes.

Lair Torrent: He had to go to those lengths.

Jennifer Norman: This is a true story.

Lair Torrent: That's a special fella right there. That

Jennifer Norman: That's a special fellow right there. It's an unfortunate true story, but yeah.

Lair Torrent: He really did her a favor, what a good what a good guy.

Jennifer Norman: What do you do with that?

Lair Torrent: Well, if I'm working with her in that situation, first of all, work to triage how all that must have felt, the traumatic experience that that certainly would be. Women tend to blame themselves even with something as glaring as this, so I'd probably have to tease out some of that with her as well. Mhmm. Yeah. The shame she probably would feel around having to tell all of her friends and family what went down and why they broke up.

There's plenty of fodder for good therapy during something like that because, and we're making light because it's kind of wild, but that person definitely experienced some trauma around that. I'm gonna be sure, and then I feel sorry for her. And you can't convey that message another way?

Jennifer Norman: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's a big stretch. It's like there's a certain thing, I guess, among people where it's like, what would cause you to want to hurt somebody so bad in order to get a point across?

Like, where did that go wrong? Where, what was that breakdown?

Lair Torrent: Well, I'm gonna guess too, and this is something I would work with her on, is like, okay. But there were other precursors. There were, you knew he was an asshole before and decided to turn a blind eye and why. Mhmm. That's not the first volley of assholic behavior.

Jennifer Norman: That's not. Assholics!

Lair Torrent: Assholeic. Yeah. I made that up. But it's a continued adherence to asshole behavior, assholic. You can't stop yourself.

It's, you're sick. And so I'm gonna be sure that he had plenty of other situations that he showed her that he was not a great guy and she wasn't listening. And why?

Jennifer Norman: Interesting. And I think a lot of times, we don't learn our lessons, and so they keep repeating themselves. And so the blind eye, the blind eye until, and perhaps he did feel like this had to be, like, this extreme behavior in order for her to see what's going on. I don't know. I don't know.

Lair Torrent: Well, you bring up an interesting point. So often people think that relationships are puppy dogs and rainbows. Right? We're sold this idea, and I talked about it earlier Ii the podcast, this idyllic version of love, and that's really not it. And I think it's more to the point.

Relationships are there to bring up the stuff that's hard. The places where we're wounded. And if we're not looking at that, we're missing it. Mhmm. We are, as Harville Hendrix liked to say, We're inexplicably drawn into the arms of a romantic partner who will, by their very nature, recapitulate our childhood wounding.

Mhmm. And he said, he finished that quote by saying, But we do this for a very important reason. So that we might have a healing experience. Now most people just stop at the pain. Mhmm. And so in my fourth practice, I call it Choosing.

People will say, oh, when I start unpacking, they're like, you mean love languages? I'm like, well, it's kinda, sorta, if you must. But love languages for me are way too shortsighted because beneath the waterline, what makes us feel loved is our wounding. Like, those love languages are in service to something. Mhmm.

Our greatest pains. The reasons we've come to this relationship is the reason why we picked this person unconsciously and why we've picked several people that look, feel, and smell remarkably like that person. Right? Mhmm. And it's because we're trying to heal a wound.

What is that wound? Well, in the book, I sort of distill that down to four things that people are looking for. Am I loved? Am I safe? Am I enough? And do I matter? Mhmm. Right? I wanna know that I'm loved, that I'm safe, that I'm enough, and do I matter? And if I didn't get one of those or a few of those were not answered in the affirmative through the formative years of my life, then that's my core wound.

And so in the beginning of a work the work I do with couples, sometimes in the first session, I'll say, I'm gonna say these I'm gonna ask these questions, and I want you to feel about them, not think about them.

Jennifer Norman: Mhmm.

Lair Torrent: And I'll say, was I loved? Was I safe? Was I enough and did I matter? And invariably, you'll see someone hitch. Right?

You'll come right to emotion. People cry in my sessions for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is when I hit the truth and when you hit that depth of truth, like, I was never loved or I never mattered and immediately recognize that, like, some part of me is here trying to fight to know that I matter. When you can dive below that, I don't do any referee therapy. I don't do, like, oh, well, what time did you get home and what? No.

I don't give a shit about any of that. We're not gonna talk about that. I know you think that's important. It's not. Underneath the fact that you were late or your partner was late and that made you feel something is, oh, you didn't matter in that moment, And your partner's feeling something too.

And if we could start talking about that, we stop talking about what you're fighting about, and we start digging into what you're fighting for. And that's where the really interesting stuff is. So you mentioned at the top of the cast, you were like, relationships are hard. I say that they're hard for all the wrong reasons.

Right? If we could dig into what we're actually fighting for, It becomes hard for all the right reasons. Mhmm. Right?

Jennifer Norman: Good. Loving that. Loving that so much. I am curious because I'm thinking about some of the relationship situations that I've come across before. We could have, like, a whole other podcast just on all of my relationships, I think.

Lair Torrent: Let's do it. Sign me up. Sign me up now. Schedule it.

Jennifer Norman: There's been far too many, far too many. But I'm thinking of the situation where you have, like, this idyllic state of thinking of what marriage is going to be like. It's going to be all, as you had mentioned, sunshine, roses, lollipops, candy, all of that. The happily after that, we've been sold as, like, young girls and princesses and things like that. And you get married, and then it's not that.

And in fact, it almost seems like this whole kind of, like, honeymoon period, which to some people last seven years, the seven-year itch, for some people a lot shorter. But it's like psychologically, something changes, and it becomes domestic, and it becomes normal. It becomes less sexy, it becomes less passionate. What do you think that is, or is that something that should just be expected?

Lair Torrent: Nope.

Jennifer Norman: I know that you have some talks on keeping sex sexy and all of that. So I'm just curious what people's expectation is of what marriage is gonna be like, and then all of a sudden they get in there and they're like, this feels like I've got on handcuffs, or I'm just like trapped, and I don't feel like I can be myself. That's when infidelity might start because they're seeking some other excitement or exhilaration.

Lair Torrent: Mhmm. It's a broad sweeping question, and so I will try to answer it succinctly. The beginning phase of most relationships is marked by limerence, which is it's a chemical thing. Right? There's a lot of dopamine, a lot of serotonin, and what we know is dopamine is not sustainable in the brain for very long.

Mhmm. And sooner than later, the dopamine starts to wear off. Now that's probably in line with a lot of what you're talking about where, oh, did I do the right thing, or this isn't exciting as I thought, things are getting mundane. Then we have the added benefit of life, real life. After the honeymoon's over and we get into, we are working, and we bought a house.

So so we bought a house, and maybe we have a couple of cars, and maybe we made some people. The stressors of all that's real. But it also sends this message to me that you're not going anywhere anytime soon, and then we get lazy. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's where this thing where the tension between us goes away. Right. Mhmm. And so been there, done that, seen you naked a bunch.

Jennifer Norman: And I don't need to keep this body nice anymore. I've got him already.

Lair Torrent: We forget that the heart we currently have is the heart at one point we wanted to win. Right? Mhmm. And so love needs to be, and this is why I called the book this, it needs to be a Practice. Needs to be something that you wanna be able to list loving your partner on your resume under special skills. Like, I'm that fucking good at it. Right? And if you're not, you're selling yourself short. You're selling your partner short, and you're probably selling your kids short. You owe it to yourself. You want that relationship? You want the puppy dogs night? Then act like it. Do something. Stop acting like you've been victimized by this person because, well, they don't show up. How have you shown up? Are you practicing love? Are you looking at the parts of you that are coming to the table? Are you looking at the narrative? Do you know how she or he is terribly wounded inside, and you know what she's he or she's recapitulating in this moment with you? Mhmm. Right? And so when you dig into that stuff and you look at your narrative and you start repopulating that with love and compassion, you start feeling differently.

But people don't wanna do that. They want it to be easy, and it's not. I always say love's a pain in the ass. Right? It is. It's hard. It should be hard for all the right reasons, but love is inconvenient. We are sold a bill of goods on this one. Right? We should just know how to do this. We're sold a lot of bill of good bills of goods. Right? Like, did you know how to taxes when you came out of college, I know I didn't. Didn't know how to file those. I didn't know how to buy a car. I didn't. There's a lot of life skills that fell into that bushel basket. Loving your partner is also one of those that we do not know how to do. Mhmm. And so we should learn how to love each other better. And learning these five practices of Mindfulness, Parts, Narrative, Choosing, and the last one's Personal Responsibility.

Right? You can really implement those practices and reinvigorate it. It helps, you don't have to worry about dopamine because you have oxytocin. Mhmm. Because you're showing up and you're being shown up for. That's how you fight that.

Jennifer Norman: Yeah. I definitely turned a corner when I stopped looking for a partner that would make me happy and realized I make myself happy. Nobody else can make me happy. I am a happy person. Once I'm happy, everybody else is happy, and it's just a whole happy fest.

Lair Torrent: Well yeah. That's your abundance perspective, not your deficit. Right?

Jennifer Norman: Right.

Lair Torrent: I hope someone shows up here to save me from my life. Oh, wait. My life is pretty good. Holy shit.

Jennifer Norman: Yeah.

Lair Torrent: It's awesome. You were able to do that. You changed your narrative about yourself in your life.

Jennifer Norman: Yep. Yep. Absolutely. And I think a lot of people are looking for that. They're looking for a hole to fill without recognizing it, and you're able to identify that when you sit down with them and say, oh, I had no idea that this was coming up. I had no idea that this was why I'm acting in a certain way. And so, yeah, I think that it's helpful to have somebody who's an aid in your Mindfulness because sometimes it's not easy to excavate. Otherwise, we would just do it naturally. It's not really something that comes so naturally. And sometimes people closest to you, you don't wanna hear it.

Lair Torrent: It's hard. True.

Jennifer Norman: It looks like criticism. That's why as somebody who's objective, Very important. It's very important to have a Lair in your corner.

Lair Torrent: Well, that objectivity is something I strive for, but I have to admit when I'm working with my clients, I'm rooting for them too. And so I have to keep an eye on that and make sure that I am objective. And I, when you work with clients this closely, you can really come to care about them, and I don't think that's a bad thing for sure. You want for them the things that they want for themselves, but that objectivity also offers you to sometimes, you just step back and go, maybe not that one. Maybe not the guy who's gonna take two ladies to bed to show you that it's time to break up.

Jennifer Norman: Exactly.

Lair Torrent: Typically, people want to be coupled, not always, but often they wanna be coupled. And if you're firing on all cylinders like that with these practices that I offer, very often people are like, what are you about? Like, you're like, I don't wanna date anymore. I don't wanna I'm good for a while. And then you start doing this work and you start dropping into your body. You start sort of glowing a little bit. You have an energy about you and people notice it. And it's really funny because when people really drop into the work and are really doing it and working on themselves in that way, very often it's like, oh my God. My dance card's full. I don't know. I didn't expect this.

Jennifer Norman: That Tinder account didn't hurt...

Lair Torrent: Nor well, right. But it's interesting, though. You mentioned that. Right? Like, I'm convinced that the apps work on your energy.

Yeah. Because I have a bunch of clients on the apps, and it's the ones who show up and they're like, whatever the one they're using, they're like, oh, man. Hate this, crickets. Right? And the people who are like, I'm kind of excited to meet new people. It's like, boom, boom, boom. They're just like, I got it. It's like a second job. I'm convinced that the apps sort of interact with your energy. I know maybe people think I'm crazy, but that's been my experience.

Jennifer Norman: I totally understand that. Absolutely. So, Lair, where can people find you if they want to have a sesh or if they wanna just get to know you a little bit better.

Lair Torrent: Best place is my Instagram account, LairTorrentHolisticTherapist. That's LairTorrentHolisticTherapist. If they wanna get the book, it's at Amazon. It's at Barnes and Noble, The Practice of Love, Break Old Patterns, Rebuild Trust, and Create A Relationship That Lasts. There's a lot of exercises in the book. It's not just, like, sort of droning on therapists. It's got a lot of stories, a lot of anecdotes from my own life, a lot of pieces from work with clients to really bring the practices home, and so they really get to know me through that. And, again, the Instagram page they can also go to.

Jennifer Norman: Ladies and gentlemen, please look Lair up. Thank you so much for being on the show today. It was absolute fun.

Lair Torrent: Yeah. Big times.

Jennifer Norman: Looking forward to healthy relationships throughout The Human Beauty Movement. Thank you, Lair.

Lair Torrent: Thank you.

Jennifer Norman: Thank you for listening to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Be sure to follow, rate, and review us wherever you stream podcasts. The Human Beauty Movement is a community-based platform that cultivates the beauty of humankind. Check out our workshops, find us on social media, and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more at The Human Beauty Movement.com. Thank you so much for being a beautiful human.