A Survivor’s Guide to Narcissistic Relationships with Mia Hanks

Jennifer Norman:
Hello beautiful humans. Welcome to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast, your source for hope, healing, happiness and humanity. My name is Jennifer Norman. I'm the founder of the Human Beauty Movement and your host. This podcast is here to guide you on your journey of self, love, empowerment, soul alignment and joy. With each episode, I invite beautiful humans from all corners of the globe to join me for open conversations about their life lessons and the important work that they are doing to help heal humankind. Take a moment now to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode. I'm so glad you're here joining me for today's show.

Jennifer Norman:
We hear the word narcissist thrown around a lot these days. This episode is all about what narcissism actually is and what to do if you're in a relationship with someone who exhibits narcissistic behavior. You'd probably be as surprised as I was to learn that only 1 to 5% of the U.S. population meets the criteria for a diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. But of course, countless more possess narcissistic traits. Even more staggering is the emotional toll this takes on those in close relationships with narcissists, partners, family members and friends. Many endure years of manipulation, gaslighting, and emotional neglect before even realizing what's happening. To help me break it all down for you, my guest today is Mia Hanks.

Jennifer Norman:
Mia is a courageous survivor of 29 years of narcissistic abuse at the hands of a covert narcissist. In her groundbreaking memoir, Bride Made, published last year, Mia shares her deeply personal journey of resilience and self discovery and healing. Her mission is to shine a light on the realities of narcissism and help others find their voices after enduring similar trauma. In this episode, MI will take us through the hidden dynamics of narcissistic relationships. We'll explore topics like identifying narcissistic personality disorder, recognizing gaslighting and other manipulation tactics, navigating the daunting process of divorce, forcing a narcissist, and most importantly, the steps to heal from this trauma and reclaim your life. Whether you're a survivor seeking clarity, a loved one trying to understand, or someone curious about the hidden epidemic of narcissistic abuse, this conversation will provide invaluable insights, practical advice, and a powerful reminder you are not alone and there is hope on the other side of healing.

Jennifer Norman:
So with that, I'd like to welcome Mia Hanks to the show. Welcome Mia.

Mia Hanks:
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Jennifer Norman:
And thank you so much for the work that you're doing. I know that this is one of the very first episodes that I have where we are both off camera. And that's for a reason. We do wish to keep everyone safe. We want to keep everyone secure. And so I appreciate you nonetheless being willing to share your story for people to hear your voice and to know that, yes, they are not alone. So to start off with, I would love for us to just ground ourselves in you. I want to know a little bit more about you and your life leading up to all of the situation of your marriage, all of the situation with your marriage and what happened.

Mia Hanks:
Yeah, so, yeah, I grew up in a... I had no trauma in my childhood. A lot of people think that victims of abuse in marriage have a difficult background. I did not had a very idyllic childhood and I think maybe that sort of. I didn't have a lot of boundaries. And I said on previous interviews, I think I grew up in a sort of an environment where I didn't really need boundaries. I was with safe people all the time. And so I think I had it in my head that everyone was good.

Mia Hanks:
I had this sort of rose colored view of the world and I just did not think people like narcissists existed. I didn't know what narcissism was back 30 years ago. So. So yeah, when I met my now ex husband, I fell into that trap very easily. I was very empathetic. I fit all those criteria that narcissists look for. I was very empathetic and I, I could be guilted very easily. And I think that my husband saw me as someone who would readily take the blame for anything whether I was guilty or not.

Mia Hanks:
And then I was just very naive. So it did set me up to, I think, get taken advantage of. And I got into my, my marriage quite young. I was 21 years old. And I think I just didn. What I didn't know we weren't talking about back then 30-35 years ago when we heard about domestic abuse that only equaled physical abuse.

Jennifer Norman:
Right.

Mia Hanks:
So emotional abuse, certainly narcissistic abuse, those types of things were not being discussed. And so, yeah, I landed in this marriage and stayed for 29 years.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow. A lot of what you just said can resonate with so many people, I think, especially on this podcast. I know that I, I talk a lot about positivity and optimism and the world is how you project it and that I do believe in the law of attraction and I feel like, you know, good things come to good people. However, there is a situation where we go in and we give people the benefit of the doubt. We are definitely seen by predators as weak or manipulative or somebody that's easily controlled. And that is. It's a hard lesson when you've grown up with all of these beliefs ingrained in you that people are ultimately good. There really aren't very many bad people.

Jennifer Norman:
And if there are, then I could probably change them with my light and the way that I shine. But truthfully, it is helpful to hear stories like this so that we are aware, because I know that you were used the word naive. And I, I wouldn't call you naive. I just would call you a very good person. However, you know, I know in, in this world and it's reality, a lot of people would say, oh, don't be naive, don't be foolish. You know, you don't. You want to lock your doors at night.

Jennifer Norman:
You want to make sure that you are. protected. And there's a healthy balance to all of that, which is what is what this show is about. It's really just understanding the healthy balance of being able to give and receive, to be through your experience and live your life. But know that your experience teaches and it also shapes your beliefs and it also helps you to have a better understanding of humanity and human behavior. So with that, why don't we talk first off of, like, what actually is a narcissist? Because I think that, as I had mentioned in the introduction, a lot of people throw that word around a lot these days. I mean, it's probably heard more now than ever before, which is so interesting.

Jennifer Norman:
So what is a narcissist? What would be a classic definition?

Mia Hanks:
That's right. People use the term narcissism. It's way overused and a lot of times it's just used incorrectly. People want to call if someone is very pompous, very arrogant, very outwardly showy, people want to call that. Call that person a narcissist. And in fact, that's not right at all. I mean, you know, you can be arrogant and all of this, but that doesn't mean you're a narcissist. A lot of times with narcissism, I mean, there is something called the overt narcissist.

Mia Hanks:
And they are very outwardly narcissistic, but in my case, my ex husband was a covert narcissist. So this is the kind of guy that the whole world sees him as very humble, very kind, very generous, very empathetic. So anything that a narcissist wouldn't Be right. But at his core he's a narcissist. Behind closed doors he shows who he really is. So, you know, you can't really look at somebody just from the outside and determine whether or not they are a narcissist. The DSM gives nine characteristics and I believe if you meet five of those, you potentially have narcissistic personality disorder. But these are people who obviously they're very low empathy, sometimes no empathy.

Mia Hanks:
They can't relate to other people, they can't really self reflect. They believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong, that everyone else is the problem. They are not. They tend to think people are jealous of them sometimes they tend to be very paranoid. They think that everybody wants what they have. So it's just a general lack of empathy, although they can fake it. So narcissists are hard to identify. They really are.

Mia Hanks:
And like I say, when you meet one, you may think they're anything but a narcissist. So it's a very tricky dynamic.

Jennifer Norman:
Yes. Now you're the first person for which I've ever heard the phrase covert narcissist. The difference between an overt narcissist and a covert narcissist. And that does really add a layer of complication to things. But yes, I would love, just because we want to help educate people as much as possible. I do have some notes on those nine definitions or those nine issues that what we would call narcissistic personality disorder, those with narcissistic personality disorder would actually showcase. And you are exactly right. The DSM does say that if you exhibit five or more of them then you would be clinically diagnosed and it is considered a mental disorder with narcissistic personality disorder.

Jennifer Norman:
So a narcissist is commonly described as someone with an inflated sense of self importance, a need for excessive admiration, a lack of empathy for others. Some people might mistake it for autism, I would think because sometimes autistic individuals, those with autism tend to show a lack of empathy. If they are on high on the spectrum, maybe Asperger's and such.

Mia Hanks:
Yeah, they do get, they do get mistaken for Asperger's diagnosis because there are similarities. And yeah, I mean a lot of people will write it off as Asperger's, but it's really much more sinister than that.

Jennifer Norman:
Interesting. Interesting. Yes. And so the answer is yes, it is a real clinical diagnosis. It's not just something. And of course because in modern day media and such the word is thrown around a lot, but the actual clinical diagnosis, you know, not everybody meets all of those criteria for the disorder. And the characteristics are as such. They are as follows.

Jennifer Norman:
One, a grandiose sense of self importance. Number two, preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty or ideal love. Some people would say delusional. And from that perspective, the delusions of grandeur, if you will. Number three, a belief that they're special and unique and can only be understood by or associate with similarly special people. Number four, a need for excessive admiration. Number five, a sense of entitlement, unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment or automatic compliance with their expectations. Number six, exploitive behavior in relationships, taking advantage of other people to achieve their own needs.

Jennifer Norman:
Number seven, a lack of empathy, an unwillingness to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others. Number eight, envy of others or belief that others are envious of them. And lastly, number nine, arrogant or haughty attitudes or behavior. So again, to be diagnosed with NPD, an individual must exhibit at least five of these traits and their behaviors must cause significant impairment in their relationships, in their work or over overall well being. So Mia, why do you think that narcissism seems so common on social media?

Mia Hanks:
It does seem common, but like you say, I mean I think the statistic, somewhere around 2 to 5% of the population actually qualify. They actually have those enough of those traits to qualify them as a narcissistic personality disorder person. However, I think that's a lot higher. Those are just the people that get diagnosed. But, but why is it so prevalent? You know, I don't know. I think people tend to think that narcissists are, that they are maybe born that way and I guess we don't really know. But one common thread that people with NPD seem to have is some form of, you know, some issue in their childhood where they, where they've been neglected. That's one common thread.

Mia Hanks:
Neglect. And, and I can see that. I mean, I guess that makes sense to some degree with my ex husband. Definitely he fits that kind of, you know, his emotional needs were really not met as a child. And does that make someone a narcissist? I don't know. It might. It's just, it's a very interesting thing. Where it comes from and why the prevalence? I don't know.

Mia Hanks:
But I again, I believe a lot of people that are called a narcissist, they really are not. It's just so overused.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. Perhaps it's because social media is based on likes, status, followers, engagement, and so it almost is aligned with narcissistic traits like self Promotion or attention seeking, obsessions with appearance or how many friends or how popular I am. And so I think that that could be one of the reasons. And of course, on social media, there's all these echo chambers. Something gets viral and, you know, all of a sudden it cat fire. So, you know, the traits seem like they're more widespread. They are. And I think that a lot of times we on social media, people tend to get judgy and like to label, use, use labels a lot on people.

Mia Hanks:
They do. And I think. But social media, it's a different aspect of our lives. Doesn't necessarily correlate to what's going on in our home. How people might seem very narcissistic online, but is their behavior actually causing issues within their home? Probably not. It's probably more of the Persona that they are displaying online. So maybe it's not as prevalent as we think, really behind closed doors. Or maybe it is.

Mia Hanks:
It's an interesting question.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. And in your case and in so many others, it's very gradual and insidious when you are in a relationship with a true narcissist. And it could start as charm or generosity, attentiveness. And in your case, with a covert narcissist, there's humility and the way that they show themselves to the outside. And then you find out that they're like this wolf in sheep's clothing. So tell us what really caught you? Like, what made you fall in love? Like, what do you feel was the thing that really attracted you to your husband? And then over time, what were some of the signs? Of course, at first you're probably blaming yourself, and he is probably also blaming you. But what point? That's the tricky part. It's like sometimes years go by before you realize that you're in hot water.

Mia Hanks:
Yeah, it starts slow. And in my case, and usually with a narcissist, it begins with love bonds. And my relationship was no exception. Excessive attention, nice gifts, grand gestures. That's what I experienced. And somebody like myself who has not had any experience with this type of individual, you want to think this person is being nice, right? These are kind gestures. This must be a kind person, that it's really more of a grooming process. And they kind of get you hooked with all of this wonderful.

Mia Hanks:
They're so wonderful, and they think you're so wonderful and it's all so great. And then once they get you hooked, then that the behavior slowly creeps in and it is so slow. It's kind of a snowball effect and really before you realize, I don't think I like how I'm being treated. You know, you're kind of in the thick of it. And in my case, you know, I was young. And we don't go into a marriage thinking how we're going to get out of the marriage. Right. We go into the marriage thinking, I'm going to make this work.

Mia Hanks:
I'm going to do everything I can to make this work, because that's what I'm supposed to do. I'm not supposed to get married to get divorced. And so these little things that creep up, this lack of empathy, this guilting me, making me feel bad about myself, you sort of just want to sweep that under the rug and say, well, they're not physical and these are just little personality quirks and I'll just let this go and tomorrow will be better. And that's kind of how I lived, you know, for a long time. The problem is those little personality quirks become bigger. These little problems become bigger problems. Yeah. And then you've got a couple of kids and the last thing you want to think about is leaving your spouse and breaking up your family.

Mia Hanks:
So it's just a slippery slope and you get into it and you just don't realize.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow, you said so much. And part of this is that there's certainly the. In many cases, a lot of people say there is a, an oppressor and then there's the oppressed. And then in a relationship it takes two to tango. And so is there a situation where, because, because of the way that we have been shaped in our early childhood to be loving and to go the extra mile and to not have boundaries and to give, give, give, give, because that's a kind and generous thing to do and you don't have any boundaries. It's almost like that feeds into the relationship and the continuity of narcissistic abuse. It shapes a way for the narcissist to even kind of create an even more dire. Things just become so unbearable.

Jennifer Norman:
And so I think that this is a good wake up call for a lot of people to say, this is a good chance to kind of self reflect, always self reflect is like, where are my boundaries? How much am I willing to give? How much do I need to really kind of restore and give back to myself so that I can identify and have these open conversations earlier rather than later before it becomes so, so bad? Because the relationship in any relationship starts with like the dating, the courting phase. Everybody's trying to impress each other and in some cases there's like showy gifts or love bombing admiration. And sometimes in the case of women, we go above and beyond to please. We go above and beyond to showcase that we're trying to be well liked. And some cases we're subservient. We want to be of service because that's a showcase of love or something that feeds into a love language that the other person may seemingly have. But over time, it just becomes too much. So at what point did you recognize or start to see signs that it was becoming too much?

Mia Hanks:
I, looking back, I knew early on that it was too much. But again, I was going to make this work, I was going to stick it out, I wasn't going to give up. But I think really when it really came down to me realizing I needed to get out was when it started affecting my health. You know, I was having chronic pain, headaches, stomach aches, I felt sick every single day. And probably the last couple years was when it just really got, you know, the chronic pain was a real problem for me. And I later understood that it was stress, all the stress of being in fight or flight mode all the time and your physical body can only take so much. So I mean, I really let this progress to the point that I didn't feel like I could physically withstand staying in this high stress environment anymore. So that was really when I had to do some get really serious about what am I doing here.

Mia Hanks:
By this point, my kids are basically grown and does become a little easier to escape this marriage. So, you know, the timing worked out well for me. But staying for that long, it's hard to think about untangling from a marriage that you've been in for almost 30 years. It's daunting, right? And I think something that doesn't get talked about much, but definitely was the case for me is there's an embarrassment factor. Factor, right? So when the outside world thinks your husband is father of the year, husband of the year, and really I've been helping him keep up the sly, right? I've been the one that's defending him, the one that's trying to make him look good all these years and then to have to turn around and say, well, actually I was lying, actually he's abusive. And then you think, well, who's going to believe me? So yeah, there's definitely, you know, it's embarrassing, I think it's embarrassing to admit, at least for me, that, that I let myself a victim for so many years. So it's a complicated web when you start thinking about leaving and it does seem daunting, but it's a necessary thing. I mean, you just cannot sustain in such an abusive relationship.

Jennifer Norman:
Just so that our listeners can really understand and maybe see some of this in perhaps their own relationships or be on the. Watch out for it. And certainly, if you're not comfortable, please let me know. Could you give an example or some examples of behavior or some. Maybe some statements that showcased this covert narcissism? Because I think that in some cases, it seems like it's being theorized, and I would love for people to be grounded in. This is what was going on. This is what happened.

Mia Hanks:
Yeah. So, for example, if we were with friends or something. Out with friends, he is always the one to be so kind and so loving and open the car door. And he wants everyone to see him as this amazing husband. Right. And he's so kind and nice to me. Constant compliments. He's giving me constant compliments when people are around to hear.

Mia Hanks:
He loves to give gifts in front of other people so people can say, wow, he is such a good husband. But, you know, behind closed doors, it's a completely different story. He's degrading. He is. Everything is about him as a narcissist, of course. Everything is about how he feels and about how he looks and how his image has to be perfect. Perfect all the time. And it reached the point later in my marriage where he would.

Mia Hanks:
He monopolized all my time. So if I wanted to do something for myself or maybe watch a TV show or something like that, he would continually guilt me and say, well, you need to be spending time with me. If it wasn't something that served him, it just wasn't considered worth my time. And it got to the point where, you know, I felt like a prisoner in my own home. And the outside world never saw this. They just saw how kind he was to me, and he actually was horrible to me, constantly making me feel not good enough. I was never good enough. Nothing was ever enough.

Mia Hanks:
So, yeah, it was a lot of verbal abuse, but of course, no one on the outside saw this.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. And those are personal things that you keep to yourself. Narcissists are so skilled at presenting themselves as, like, charming and likable, and it can make you feel isolated and disbelieved. And so the outside world sees this charismatic, kind person, and. And the. Then the victim is the crazy one. And that sometimes is where the gaslighting. And that's another hot word right now, the gaslighting comes in where it's like the abuser Might make the victim doubt what they're perceiving, doubting their sanity even, and creating confusion about it and thinking.

Jennifer Norman:
Manipulating the victim into thinking that yes, they are crazy and they're just imagining things and this is the way that it's supposed to be. And this, I think what happens is there's this emotional dependency where the narcissist is constantly, like stringing the person along with either just saying, like, well, this is the way that it needs to be. I'm going to praise you and look at all of the things that I'm doing for you, making that person feel guilty for even feeling differently about it and that they should be grateful. And that's another very, very slippery slope too. It's like we can be grateful for being in a relationship, but knowing when it's turning toxic is something to keep our ears up for so that we can really stand on our own two feet and not necessarily have somebody absorb all that you are and all the joy out of everything that you used to love and, and that you need to do for yourself in order to nourish and to grow as an individual within the relationship.

Mia Hanks:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you start to abandon self care and you start to, you know, you're. You're made to feel guilty if you do anything for yourself. And so you do. Slowly, over time, you, you just abandon who you are and everything you like and everything you enjoy. It just, everything becomes about the narcissist. You really kind of give up your life for them.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow. Did you guys ever go to couples therapy or did you ever go to your own therapist at all during the course of your relationship?

Mia Hanks:
We did that last year. It's really interesting. Narcissists love to go to therapy. A lot of people don't, don't know that, but that is the truth. They love it. My husband suggested going to therapy, and I said, okay, you know, and I'm thinking, well, maybe this will help him. The only reason he wanted to go to therapy was to quote, unquote, fix me. And so it was very interesting.

Mia Hanks:
We went to about 10 sessions. We went once a week. And he did all the talking, which was odd. We did all the talking and he spoke about things he wasn't happy with, how I wasn't giving him enough attention. He felt my priorities were not where they should be. And for about 10 sessions, this therapist listened to him talk and occasionally would ask me a few questions. And was really interesting because on about that 10th, maybe 10th or 11th appointment, she looked at him about midway through the session and said, she said, as much as I want to help you, she said, I just realized I cannot. And she told him she didn't call him a narcissist, but she told him, she said, you are not able to self reflect, reflect.

Mia Hanks:
You cannot see things from other people's perspectives. And she told him, she said, best of luck to you, but I don't want to see you again. And I'm sitting there thinking, wow, I just watched somebody get kicked out of therapy. I mean, I didn't even know that was possible. And so I later went and had a one on one session with her in secret and just straight up asked, what is your take on this? And is he a narcissist? And she said, yes. And, and she asked me, she said, do you want out? And I said, I do. And she told me, she said, you need to make plans. You need to get yourself out of this.

Mia Hanks:
So it really turned out to be a great thing because it gave me that validation that I needed. Hearing a professional say, this is not good. It just helped me to solidify in my mind that I couldn't stay.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh my goodness. Wow. Wow, that's huge. Okay, so here we get into the messy part of it and that is saying that you want a divorce. That couldn't have been easy.

Mia Hanks:
No, it's terrifying actually. And I didn't actually do it that way because I was just so scared. I ended up moving in with my parents and just, I just. What I did was I told him I needed a little break. I needed some time to sort things out. And being the narcissist that he is, he's thinking, oh, she'll be back. This is just silly. And she's just going through a little issue and she's going to come back.

Mia Hanks:
When he realized I wasn't going to come back back, things really turned south. Narcissists don't, they don't take the word no. It's not in their playbook and they don't do well with, you know, rejection. So, yeah, he got really nasty doing things like draining the bank account so that I couldn't access any money. You know, just things like that. Because in his mind, money was one way he controlled. He controlled all the finances. Therefore I was indebted to him.

Mia Hanks:
Right. I depended on him. Him. And so it was a very high conflict divorce. But. But we made it. We made it. But yeah, it is.

Mia Hanks:
And the other thing that you hear about, and I didn't think it would happen to me, but I was wrong is the Smear campaign. The minute that he realized I was filing for divorce, that smear campaign began. And he quite literally, I think, gathered up every mutual friend that, that we had and started telling his story. No idea what that story was, but all I know is all these people no longer speak to me. So that was hard. That was a really difficult watching all of our so called friends take his side. Yeah, yeah, it was tough, but you get over it and you move on.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow. I want to ask about your children because I know that you said that like they were grown.

Mia Hanks:
Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
But what was it like for them living in the household and growing up and having you take care of them? And of course, I'm making a grand assumption too, that you were probably more the one that was taking care of them.

Mia Hanks:
Yes.

Jennifer Norman:
In the family. And how are they number one and how is the relationship with them and both of you?

Mia Hanks:
It was hard. It was really hard. You're right. I was basically the sole parent. I mean, he provided financially and he thought he was doing a great thing. As far as parenting, not so much. He.

Jennifer Norman:
It was.

Mia Hanks:
My kids had a hard time because he demanded so much from me and I was spread so thoroughly then and I was stressed so much of the time. I couldn't be. I really wasn't allowed to be the mom that I wanted to be for them. I feel like they were kind of robbed of some of some of those experiences that I wish I could have been a more fun mom. I wish I could have been more carefree and could have just been a happier dynamic. So that's not to say every day was bad. Of course we had good times.

Mia Hanks:
But in general, I just couldn't be the parent that I wanted to be today. They're doing great. They are great. They are very supportive of me and my decision to divorce their dad. In fact, both of them have said, wow, Mom, I wish you would have done this like 20 years ago. And. But today I, I get to have a really great relationship with them.

Mia Hanks:
We have really good conversation. We've talked through so much of what happened and, and they both have a relationship with their father as, as they should. They are also very aware that, that he was not a great person back then and maybe not today either. But again, he is their dad and they do, they do maintain a relationship with him. So I'm glad for that.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Mia Hanks:
But I think my relationship with them today is stronger just because all of this is finally out in the open and you can talk about it. Nothing's off limits. And yeah, they're doing really well and I. I'm really happy.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, that's great. Yeah, I always so concerned because everybody has their own experiences growing up that do impact. Impact the way that they go forward in life. And it's only with that wisdom afterwards that you can look back and say, okay, that's how it was. And that's not necessarily how a marriage ought to be or not. That's not necessarily how my marriage, if I choose to be married, will be because I see what was going on and, and I recognize those signs and, and all of that. So that's a comfort. And also I think that there is that healing process of once you've gone through the pain and the agony and certainly you're still healing from this.

Jennifer Norman:
And part of your healing journey is helping others to recognize the symptoms, the signs and, and being. To ensure that there is this awareness for all people and hopefully ultimately move on. So I'm curious to see like, how is it going and how are relationships now, if I might have ask?

Mia Hanks:
It's going well, I think healing. Everyone's on their own timeline. And I. Right now I'm just kind of enjoying the freedom of being able to wake up in the morning and decide how I'm going to spend my day. I don't have to answer to anyone. I don't have anyone standing over me saying, you know, you need to do this and this and this and. And it having to all be about somebody else. So it's like going from being a prisoner in your own home to having complete freedom.

Mia Hanks:
It's overwhelming really. But yeah, it's good. And I think, you know, I'm lear to build some confidence. I. I found early on I second guessed myself. I wasn't sure I was capable of making decisions because that's what I was told for so long. You're not capable, you're not smart enough, you're not good enough. So, yeah, it's a slow process.

Mia Hanks:
I went through therapy. I was in therapy for about a year and I think that sort of sets. Laid some groundwork for me to just learn how to set some boundaries and just kind of figure stuff out. So, yeah, now I'm just don't really know what's next, but I'm enjoying hopefully being able to help other people. I hate to think of people staying in these relationships for as long as I did. It's a lot of time wasted, but it's so much better on the other side of healing. And yeah, so it's going well.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, that's so good. To hear now for all of those folks who are listening today who may have people pleasing tendencies or who may think, oh, well, all is not lost. I can help this relationship. I need to do better. I need to. And certainly there is self awareness and self improvement and that starts to really cloud up the line of boundaries. And so perhaps, Mia, you can help our listeners because I know that it took me a really long time to say, like, how do I even set boundaries? How, like what, what does that even mean, to set boundaries? When you're used to being a giver and you're used to feeling like it. My personal responsibility is to make.

Jennifer Norman:
Make this work. What are some of the boundaries that you ultimately discovered that you needed to set?

Mia Hanks:
I think the biggest one is that I just need to take care of myself when it comes down to I'm letting my physical health be impaired because of this person. I'm getting three hours of sleep a night because I'm basically told when I can sleep. That's not okay. When you're suffering physically for this. Yeah. More or less was just a crazy time.

Mia Hanks:
Yeah. So sleep deprived. Course narcissists like that. It's a tactic they use because it makes you more vulnerable to control if you're just sleep deprived and kind of in a fog all the time. So when you're suffering physically because of this person, that. That's a huge red flag.

Jennifer Norman:
That's huge. Huge.

Mia Hanks:
And then just constantly feeling bad about yourself, if you just don't feel like you're capable or that you're good enough, that's another big red flag. And that's a boundary. You can't let people make you feel less than all the time. Time. So, yeah, I'm still learning about boundaries myself. Like I say, I. I've never been one to have boundaries, so I'm still figuring all that out.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. And the other thing is, if there's this love bombing and this complimenting on the one hand, and then there's this degrading and demoralizing on the other, it's like, what in the world? Like, yeah, how does that happen?

Mia Hanks:
Yeah. And it, I think the term they, I've heard is cognitive dissonance, where it's this constant. It's the opposites. You're getting all this out in public, they're so nice to you, and then behind closed doors, they're so horrible. And, you know, your mind just doesn't know where to go with that. I mean, you're just not sure, how do I take all that in? And what do I do with that? Yeah, it is just kind of. It makes you so uncertain of who you are and what you're supposed to do and how you're supposed to react.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, yeah. What I want to do now for our listeners is talk about, about the difference between healthy conflict and manipulative tactics of a narcissist. Because telling the difference between healthy conflict and the manipulative tactics of a narcissist can be really, really challenging, especially when there's emotions at play. And so if you understand the differences, the distinctions between behavior, intent and communication style, it can help you clue into whether you're engaging in a constructive conflict or if you're being subject to manipulation. And so the first thing is, are you having respectful communication? If both of you are able to express your thoughts and feelings openly without resorting to insults or threats or belittling, then that's respectful. There's an effort to listen and understand the other person's perspective. But if not, if that person is calling you names or insulting you or making you feel like you're insecure or just bad about yourself, then that's a sign. That's a big red flag.

Mia Hanks:
Yeah. I was going to say with a narcissist you talk about healthy conflict. With a narcissist oftentimes, you know, you don't ever reach that level because usually you're afraid to bring up any sort of constructive criticism or any issue. I'm upset about this. Can we talk about this? Those conversations often don't happen because the victim is so fearful of bringing up anything. So you just, you know, you just push it down and you just. That is one huge red flag. If you can't talk about what's bothering you with your partner, that's not good.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, yeah. It's so important to have that two way communication and to be able to get out what you're really feeling. That constriction does lead to those headaches. The body aches get somatically just stuck inside you where you start to break down physically because of that emotion which is bottled up. The second thing is accountability. Healthy individual individuals take responsibility for their actions. They apologize when it's necessary and they work towards solutions. Blame is not one sided.

Jennifer Norman:
Both of you are willing to examine your own contributions to the issue. A narcissist will have a really hard time taking responsibility.

Mia Hanks:
Oh yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
For their actions.

Mia Hanks:
They don't apologize. I mean, it's just that is not on their agenda. And if they do apologize ever, if it is not genuine. Yeah, there Is no accountability. It is. They are right no matter what. And yeah, it's no accountability, no apologies.

Jennifer Norman:
The third thing is mutual goals. If you both want a resolution and growth in your relationship, even if your emotions are really being triggered, at least ultimately, there's this shared commitment to finding either a compromise or understanding. It's not my way is the only way. If that person is my way is the only right. Like I'm right, you're right. Wrong. That is also a red flag.

Mia Hanks:
Right, Right. No compromising with a narcissist. I mean, it's their way or the highway. They don't compromise. Working together to find a solution. It's them. It's their thoughts, their wants, their. What they want is all that's important.

Mia Hanks:
So, yeah, there's no teamwork with a narcissist.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, yeah. They feel that they have everything to shoulder on their own. The fourth thing is, is emotional safety. And so if you have a disagreement, any argument, you should be able to do so without fear of retaliation, emotional punishment or manipulation. So if you're feeling fearful, if you're feeling unsafe, if you're feeling like, oh, I can't bring anything up because it's just going to end in disaster, that's not a good thing. That means that you're not able to express yourself freely and you are. You're feeling like a prisoner in your own home.

Mia Hanks:
Yeah, I think the word safe is the key word there. If you think you are in a relationship with this type of person, that is one big question really, you should ask yourself is, do I feel safe? Because for me, in all 29 years of my marriage, I would have definitely answered no.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow. So goodness. The other thing is listening, you know, is that person willing to really hear your side? If you do muster up the courage to be able to. To express yourself, does it seem like you're just constantly being shut down or are you getting dismissed? Are you feeling being told or even gaslit, like being so sensitive or you're, you know, you're imagining things or. That's not true.

Mia Hanks:
Yeah, yeah, definitely agree with that. I think they, you know, a lot of times they don't listen. They know what they know and that's all they care about. So whatever you have to say is just kind of whatever. Yeah, they very. Just dismissive.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. So people who are listening today, questions that you will want to ask yourself when you're with somebody else. Do you feel safe expressing your emotions or are you afraid of retaliation or escalation? Is that other person acknowledging their role in this conflict or are they shifting all the blame onto you? Do you leave a conversation feeling like you've been heard or understood? Or are you confused and filled with self doubt? Does the conflict lead to a resolution or does it feel like this never ending cycle? If you're having a healthy conflict, you have mutual respect, you have accountability, you have the goal of improving the relationship. But if, on the other hand, you are being stunted by manipulative tactics, you are feeling undermined, you are being controlled and that other person is deflecting responsibility. So hopefully that helps clarify for you the difference between healthy conflict and somebody who is narcissistic and just trying to manipulate you and have their way or the highway. This is such a crucial step to identifying early on how to set those boundaries, how to protect yourself and really try to resolve what could be a very toxic relationships. A very toxic relationship. Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. So what advice, Mia, would you give to somebody who feels like they are trapped in a relationship with a narcissist, but they don't know what to do, they don't know how to leave?

Mia Hanks:
It's hard to know what, how to leave. I mean, it seems easy and people on the outside can easily say, well, we'll just leave, you know, just leave. It's just not that easy. I mean, these people have often been so worn down and so beaten down that they just don't have what it takes to, you know, to get the confidence up to leave. But my advice to anyone who is in one of these relationships is really, I mean, whatever you have to do, don't waste any more time. Narcissism does not get better with age. It gets worse. It's kind of a proven thing that they tend to get to get worse the older they get.

Mia Hanks:
So really, I mean, you think you're going to hang in there and things are going to be better? Probably. It's not. The other thing is if you have kids. For me, I wish I would have gotten out sooner so my kids didn't have to. To constantly see this toxic relationship day in and day out, that's what they learned, that's what they saw was toxicity. And I really, I have so much regret about that. But really, as daunting as it seems, my advice is start making a plan. And you do have to plan.

Mia Hanks:
You do have to plan to leave a narcissist, you can't just up and leave because these are manipulative people. But start making a plan and start thinking about how you're going to get out. Because really, life is so much better. Better on the other side of abuse. It really is.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. A healthy relationship is when you feel free to be yourself together. Like, you're able to grow, be yourself, do the things you love, have the life that you want, and evolve into the person that you are supposed to become. If you at all feel trapped or burdened or constricted, confined, if you feel like you've got shackles on every single day now, that is certainly there are going to be days that are better than others and worse than others. And that's also the part that's. Yeah, that's hard because it's like, okay, maybe this is just a temporary situation, but if you're able to look at the gestalt, the overall pattern of things over time, like, do you more and more like. And, and certainly some people would say, well, I have a job makes me feel that way, or having kids makes me feel that way. But, you know, certainly when you are with a person in a relationship and that person is making you feel that you are a prisoner in your own home, then that's really what we're talking about here.

Jennifer Norman:
Now, Mia, you wrote this wonderful memoir called Bride Made. And so can you let our listeners know what to expect when they read this?

Mia Hanks:
Yeah, so I wrote this memoir. It's a chronological. Basically it starts at the beginning of my marriage. It goes all the way through my divorce. And I just share kind of. It's told like in short stories of just what day to day life with a narcissist is like. And I hope that it will help people see. Yeah, that's what it looks like.

Mia Hanks:
That's what it. You can read all the psychology books and, and all the things written by therapists, but when you read about someone's experiences, who actually lived it. Yeah. So I'm hoping it, it just helps people find validation and understand more about what it is like to be in a relationship with these kind of people.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow. Mia Hanks, I am so grateful for you being on the show today. I want to thank you so much for sharing your, your story and being brave enough and bold enough to have really put yourself into a situation where you recognize this is how I want my life to be here on out and making the decision, however painful it might be to get out of a toxic relationship when you know that it's really something that can't be repaired. It's beyond, beyond hope at that point. Yeah, it's knowing that this is not worth salvaging at this point and, and putting yourself first. I want to thank you so much for your work to spread awareness, support those survivors of those who have suffered at the hands of narcissistic abuse, and for continuing to just live life to the fullest. Thank you for being a beautiful human.

Mia Hanks:
Thank you so much for having me today.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you for listening to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Be sure to follow rate and review us wherever you stream podcasts. The Human Beauty Movement is a community based platform that cultivates the beauty of humankind. Check out our workshops, find us on social media and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more at thehumanbeautymovement.com. Thank you so much for being a beautiful human.