Navigating the Midlife Marriage Crisis with Penny McGoey

Jennifer Norman:
Hello beautiful humans. Welcome to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast, your source for hope, healing, happiness and humanity. My name is Jennifer Norman. I'm the founder of The Human Beauty Movement and your host. This podcast is here to guide you on your journey of self love, empowerment, soul alignment and joy. With each episode, I invite beautiful humans from all corners of the globe to join me for open conversations about their life lessons and the important work that they are doing to help heal humankind. Take a moment now to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode. I'm so glad you're here, joining me for today's show.

Jennifer Norman:
When you hear the word midlife, do you automatically think crisis? What if instead your midlife could be a new, beautiful adventure with the love of your life? Yes, midlife can be a time to rediscover the connection, redefine the love, and re strengthen the bond that you have with your spouse. So much happens between once Upon a time and happily ever after. And my guest is here to guide couples through that magical and often messy middle. Penny McGoey is a certified marriage and relationship coach based in Juneau, Alaska. Married for 35 years to a military man and firefighter, Penny recognized her unique ability to help couples, particularly those in midlife, move from calamity to connection. In a world where nearly 50% of marriages end in divorce, Penny is committed to helping couples navigate their challenges, including infidelity, so they can remember and re nurture the love in their relationships. By listening to today's episode, you'll discover how to reignite connection during midlife, how to cultivate communication habits, and how to reframe your middle years as a season of exceptional growth. So now it's my honor to welcome Penny McGoey to the show. Welcome, Penny.

Penny McGoey:
Oh, thank you so much. I am so happy to be here.

Jennifer Norman:
I am delighted to have you as my guest. And wow, what a topic for today. This is really exciting because midlife is a time of so much change. So, so much is happening around midlife, and it can be overwhelming and scary for some people. And that's why we call it the messy middle, right?

Penny McGoey:
Absolutely. So many parts are involved in this time. I mean, you think about it, you know, she it's like changing roles where we have children at home and we're raising them and we're a team doing that thing. And then all of a sudden kids are leaving, we're becoming grandparents. We're now having to think about caregiving elder parents. Just the list of things that we start to have to face and Acknowledge and prepare for during midlife. It can be all encompassing...

Jennifer Norman:
And when we think that we're stressed as young people, it almost pales in comparison to what happens because of all the extra responsibilities or because of these changes where if you did have kids at home and then all of a sudden you find yourself an empty nester, it's like, what do I do? And who is this other person living with me? I don't even recognize that man or that woman. It's like, oh, we've got to start dating again. How do I even do this? So tell me what...

Penny McGoey:
Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
What are some of those common challenges that couples do face during this time, and how do you help them navigate these changes?

Penny McGoey:
Yeah. I think one of the largest things I've seen with the couples I've worked with has been a loss of identity. And that has been something that has been ringing true both for the men and the women that I've worked with for so long. Men have identified their entire existence based around their career. And although we have progressed and we've come a long way into helping men anchor to who they are as friends and fathers and partners, still so much of a man's identity resides in their career and in their accomplishments and their success. Yeah. And as we get ready to prepare for retirement and the changes that come with that and that sense of, who am I now? That becomes a major issue. Women, many of us are so career oriented.

Penny McGoey:
I had a 25 year as an international wedding photographer, and my eye just loved my job. I resonated with my job. Everywhere I went, people were like, oh, I know you, you know, you shot my sister's wedding or whatever. And I felt such a sense of ownership of who I was identifying as this international wedding photographer, going and doing.

Jennifer Norman:
All the cool things.

Penny McGoey:
Right?

Jennifer Norman:
Yes.

Penny McGoey:
And I was also... I raised five kids.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow.

Penny McGoey:
And my kids then leave. And I remember there was just this huge hole in my life right around the time I was 49. 48. 49. My kids were gone and my career was in a transition because the military moved us again. And I just remembered looking around and going, I think I'm losing touch with who I am and what makes me feel alive and what makes me feel awake. And I think my husband was going through the exact same thing because he was preparing to retire from a 30 year career in the military where you have someone saluting you every day.

Jennifer Norman:
Right.

Penny McGoey:
And now what? What are you going to do now? How do you move into a new chapter and still retain that sense of who you are. And I think when two people come together and both have to reconcile their identity, that can be a real time of challenge for couples.

Jennifer Norman:
It can. I think that in some cases when one person is going through something, the other person is there for support. And so this like fear, weak, then I'm strong, et cetera, et cetera, you lean on. But if you're both doing it at the same time, like who's going to lean on who, a lot of times that's when they find themselves extremely vulnerable in a not so great way.

Penny McGoey:
Yeah. And you know, when we're vulnerable. Right. We tend to start putting up some protective layers around that part that we feel vulnerable in. And whenever we put up protective layers toward our partner, we get distance and distance breaks connection. And where there's a loss of connection, that relationship just stops thriving. There's no way for a relationship to continue to grow and thrive when there's disconnection.

Jennifer Norman:
Uh huh. What about these couples who feel that they might have just stayed together for the children as well, and then the children leave and then they feel like, well, there's nothing to really stay together for because it was really to be there for the children.

Penny McGoey:
Right. And nothing breaks my heart more because from every, you know, and I'm sure that you had a lot of friends whose parents divorced. Right. And they waited a lot of times until the kids were gone or the kids were older. And almost all of those kids who are now adults look back and go, God, I wish mom and dad would have just gotten a divorce because they were so miserable together that it would have made us happier to see mom and dad happy and have parents that were happy and flourishing.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Penny McGoey:
And I think so often we deceive ourselves in thinking, oh, if we just stay together till we get the kids off to college, they won't meet us anymore. They won't recognize it won't be such a big hit that they're getting a divorce. And that's just not really accurate. Children and young adults, even adults, we learn how to rely on those relationships in our life. And when those relationships are miserable.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Penny McGoey:
That actually can create a lot of damage in us and in our ongoing relationships. So it's better for people if they cannot reconcile and work together. It's almost better for them to be done. Even though I am a marriage coach and I 100% believe in marriage, I 100% don't believe every marriage is meant to stay together.

Jennifer Norman:
I was just going to ask that. Yeah, yeah.

Penny McGoey:
Because it takes two people completely committed to making it work and fighting together and being a team. And like you said, there's times when one of us is taking up more weight than the other. And always reminded Brene Brown, AKA the goddess...

Jennifer Norman:
Yes, she is the goddess, right?

Penny McGoey:
She is the goddess. Well, Brene talks about her husband's a pediatrician and she's this amazing everything. And that they would come home together and they would weigh in with each other. And I'm sure you've heard this where it's like, she's like, I've had a really horrible day. I'm at like 10%. And he'd be like, well, I've had a better day today, so I can cover you. We're going to order in dinner tonight. We're going to get somebody to come and clean the house for the party we're planning this weekend.

Penny McGoey:
How can we get back to a place where we're okay, think every couple needs to get to that place together where they can start to say, hey, we're 10%, we're 20%, and how can we make up for each other? And when two people together are going, oh, my God, together we're not even at 50%. There's a time when a couple needs to say, hey, we are all in to fight for this and make it work. But if you're not, one person can't do that a hundred percent alone. They just can't.

Jennifer Norman:
That is healthy communication. I think that when you're able to have those kinds of reality, context switching communication, relationships where you're getting together and really being open and honest about being depleted or being able to, like, say, I can roll up my sleeves and be there for you. And if you're both not, then you both recognize, okay, you're both going to call in and just, like, cancel some stuff off of the calendar or what, whatever needs to happen. But all too often, I think what ends up happening is the quietness or the silent treatment or the resentfulness that kind of builds up without necessarily even being with each other about what's wrong. And that can. I think it's almost like scorekeeping over time, right?

Penny McGoey:
I think scorekeeping is one of the most dangerous habits that couples get into in keeping track of wrongs and tallying which wrong has more weight than the other wrong. And finding themselves in a position where we're no longer two people playing for the team, but now we're individuals playing for the front row. Do you know what I mean? Like, when each individual is in their own realm and they're not Together, focused. Instead, we're keeping score. Like you were saying at that point, you were just rife for resentment and contempt. And according to the Gottman Institute, which they are the epitome of the best relationship support we can get, they say that contempt is the number one indicator of divorce.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, wow.

Penny McGoey:
So, yeah. So when we're keeping track of wrongs, that's exactly what we're just. We're aiming our relationship towards an ending. Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. You're essentially sabotaging it as it's going down.

Penny McGoey:
A hundred percent.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow. So how can people start healthier and finish healthier? I think that's the question that everybody wants to ask. Of course, people are listening to this podcast right now, and they're already in midlife, and they're like, okay, we've already.

Penny McGoey:
Got some stuff that's accumulated.

Jennifer Norman:
But for the younger ones, start it like. And you're just starting off on a relationship and you're getting. And you're working towards longevity. Knowing that in the past, I feel like there was a sense of obligation or a sense of duty. Like, the idea of commitment felt like shackles. Like, you were not able to escape back in the day. And that's not the case anymore. We are definitely creatures that have a bit more free will, for better or worse, and we make our own decisions.

Jennifer Norman:
And some relationship coaches say that that's... That's how it's supposed to be. They say that we're not supposed to be monogamous creatures. It could be.

Penny McGoey:
Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
Just somebody's opinion, or it could be something that's just biologically in our nature. We're supposed to have different relationships for the different phases of our lives. But in this instance, if we do believe that there is that one, we're getting married. We really want it to last forever. We know there's going to be tough times, there's going to be hardships, there's going to be ups and downs. It's just a fact of life. It's never going to be as sexy as and as sizzly as it is at the very beginning. If it is.

Penny McGoey:
Wow, that's, like, good for you. Yeah, right, Exactly. Way to go. Yeah. I really believe that in this journey in life, each and every one of us is on this process of evolving into new versions of ourselves, and we should be. That's the whole point, is to continue to grow and open to life. The most miserable people I know are the ones that get stuck and stop and close down. So I think the first step, I always encourage couples is remember that you are in a process of evolution, and this is a journey, and together staying open, and.

Penny McGoey:
Because when you do that, your relationship gets to evolve as well. And I think when we are in this growth mindset, this healthy connection mindset, we stay open in our communication with each other about where we're at, right? About the changes we're experiencing in our bodies from the very beginning until midlife, Right? Like, we talk about what's happening to our bodies. We don't keep secrets. We talk about things we're struggling with emotionally. We talk about things that, you know, are challenging us in our career or fears that we're. We're wrestling about, possibly money or even, like, sexual connection between two people. Being able to stay in open communication about it. Because it's like, you know, when you're young and you first get together, sex is such a mystery.

Penny McGoey:
It's like such an exciting, passionate, hot mystery. You know, Bill and I were doing math the other day, and we calculated that over 35 years, if you average out three times a week, you know, I mean, we were like, yeah, right, Exactly. We were like, well, you know, given, you know, that I had all these kids and maternity leave and these things, and we started just calculating, oh, my God, we've had sex, like, almost 4,000 times. We're like, we're experts, dude.

Jennifer Norman:
Better get your 10,000 hours in, right?

Penny McGoey:
And it's like, okay, so if we've had sex close to 4,000 times, is there anything in our life that we've done 4,000 times that we don't start to get a little bit... Like, really?

Jennifer Norman:
Are we doing this again?

Penny McGoey:
You know, right?

Jennifer Norman:
You're like, hello darkness my old friend...

Penny McGoey:
Yes, exactly. Well, it's like, you think about people commuting, right? It's like when they first start a job and they're commuting, they don't care that traffic doesn't really bug them too bad. They do the same thing on the same commute for 10 years. They're like, oh, my God, I hate to drive. I don't know.

Jennifer Norman:
I just.

Penny McGoey:
I feel like there's just so many parts of relationship that if we can remember from the very beginning, like you were talking about, what is the truth that you can carry from beginning through the middle to be like, we are both in a process of it, of evolving. We're both in a process of becoming something different. You know, I look at your butterfly behind you. It's. We're all in this process, and if we can keep that at the forefront of our minds and both encourage each other and challenge each other to do that, then I think we help our relationship continue to do that. And I think that is a habit. You can start from the first day you're married. Right.

Penny McGoey:
It should be something that you put in place from the first day you're married.

Jennifer Norman:
That is brilliant. I had heard relationship experts talk about, well, tell me how you have sex and I will tell you about you. Like, no, it's like if you were really honest with yourself, like, are you going there to be naughty, to be free, to be submissive, to be dominant, to be like. You learn so much about, like, how a person has sex and then how.

Penny McGoey:
They wish to be.

Jennifer Norman:
Like their fantasies, like, out in the real world, while sexual. Ooh, now that is juicy. So if it starts getting old, what is that saying about you? Are you the one that's creating this oldness and this feeling of tiredness within you, or are you willing to create that sense of excitement over and over again for the 4,001th time?

Penny McGoey:
I know, right? Well, and you know, it comes back to also self care if a man and a woman aren't tending to their own mental.

Jennifer Norman:
I know when I'm not feeling sexy, I'm like, this gut is not feeling sexy right now. But it's. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right? It makes you embarrassed. Like, yeah.

Penny McGoey:
And it has nothing to do with, like, body size, but like, even, like, I've talked to so many couples, I'm like, when is the last time you went out for a walk? I'm not talking about just hitting the gym and torturing your body into just enjoying physical condition.

Penny McGoey:
When's the last time you just took a walk to breathe fresh air? When's the last time you did it together?

Jennifer Norman:
Wow.

Penny McGoey:
When's the last time? You know, for many people, like, do you strength train?

Jennifer Norman:
I know that that's like, like do so important, right?

Penny McGoey:
Because so much of our aging bodies are demanding that we do. Because if we don't, silly things like orgasm, for God's sakes, all of a sudden we don't strength train anymore...

Jennifer Norman:
You get a hernia

Penny McGoey:
Right. Exactly. We stop strength training and we stop having powerful orgasm because our muscles become weak and atrophy. Overall, are we caring for ourselves? Are we prioritizing our own wellness? And that's like I said, each individual within that relationship. Because then they bring that energy into the relationship and that keeps it dynamic and it keeps it fluid and growing.

Jennifer Norman:
You know, it's so true. And I think that sometimes people get to midlife and they're like, oh my God, what happened? Like, who is this person?

Penny McGoey:
And it.

Jennifer Norman:
And a lot of times it might be because. Yeah, I haven't been keeping up that maintenance on myself, or I've just been putting myself in the back corner and tending to everybody else. And they forget that if you don't keep yourself fit and active and healthy, then it's gonna be like showcase and reflect on everything else that's kind of going on in your life.

Penny McGoey:
Oh, a hundred percent women. So much. I can only speak to us as women.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Penny McGoey:
We tend to put others needs in front of our own. And I know for me as a military wife, first responder wife, his career was part of my job. Right. Being willing to move at the last minute, always standing as the dutiful wife at work events and an understanding that together his trip, you know, like he went away for a year to Panama when I was six weeks pregnant with our fourth baby. Right. Like, there's just, there's things that the sacrifices that needed to be made and I chose to stay home with our kids just because of the moving constantly so I could provide a constant for my kids. And those kind of sacrifices that we make can at times facilitate us losing touch with our own needs. And I say, when I work with couples, that is the absolute first thing that I advise couples to do is to sit down with themselves and say, I call it a state of our union.

Penny McGoey:
And it's basically like each person saying what's working and what's not working in my own life, in my space. And then how is that overflowing into our relationship? What is and isn't working in our relationship? And getting radically honest about that.

Jennifer Norman:
Do you recommend that people do that in a journal first? Like they do it on their own? Oh, definitely upon it. And then share with their loved ones rather than just going straight in. Okay, write it down.

Penny McGoey:
Oh definitely. We don't necessarily want to shoot from the hip on that because I think it's important for us to free flow about what's working and not working in our life because it's not really an organized thought process. Right. We're going to go, huh? You know, how are my friendships? Yeah. How is my relationship with the kids? Am I taking care of my own health? What's my relationship with my family like? How am I feeling about my career? What are my bucket lists? What are the things I dream about? What are the goals that I've set for myself? Have I kept...

Penny McGoey:
Do I continue to set goals or am I, am I starting to stagnate? Like, these are all questions that I think need to be asked of ourselves and say, what's doing well? What's not doing well? Where do I have the power to change something? Where am I feeling? Like I don't know where to get that power? And then once we have that information, then we can start asking the deeper question about our relationship. How is all of this over on my side impacting our dynamic? And then you come together and both of you could say, look, this is a free place for us to have this conversation. You're my best friend. You're my life partner. And that doesn't mean we are doing great right now or we're not. But can we just get on the same page? Can this just be our state of the union? Like, how is this going for us? And when you can do that, then you guys can find your feet. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I speak to people about trauma.

Penny McGoey:
I am not a therapist. I don't specialize in trauma. I refer my clients out to a therapist when they're facing trauma. But one of the things that overarches being a first responder wife and also being a military wife, trauma makes people feel like they can't find their feet.

Jennifer Norman:
Right?

Penny McGoey:
Like there's. They can't anchor. There's no anchor. And I think for a relationship in trouble, if we can find our feet, we can't. We have something to work with. And so this is the first practice and first exercise I always give couples to help them find their feet so that they can start to have something to create as a foundation.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow, what a great start. I think that's. But it's wonderful that you are explaining how somebody is in touch with themselves and what their needs are and their sentiments and then how that carries through onto the relationship. I think in many instances, there's a lot of, well, that person's not doing this for me or that person. And the blaming that person, my husband, my wife, whatever, should know how I'm feeling rather than really, like, sitting down and talking through it. It's a lot of expectation, blame, and getting to that game, playing a bit, I think. And this is so much healthier, Right? And it's so easy. Like we talked about earlier, when we.

Penny McGoey:
Have an area where we're feeling tender, we're feeling weak, something's not going well, we tend to guard it, we tend to protect it. And I think when we start doing that within a relationship, our defenses rise.

Jennifer Norman:
Yes.

Penny McGoey:
And, you know, one of the number one things we do when we're defending is we, we deflect, we push back. We're like, no, no, no, don't look over here. Look at yourself. I can't have you shining a light at me right now because I can't look at this. It hurts, it's tender, it's raw. So I'm going to shoot back at you. Right. And it's always.

Penny McGoey:
It does become a thing of. If you find that your thoughts turn more when you think about your partner to what I don't have, what they don't do, the things that they've done to wrong you, when you find that that is where you're pre. In your thoughts about your relationship, that's such an indicative thing that, oh, my gosh, I'm not doing the work in here for me. I'm looking to blame them for what's going on in here with me.

Jennifer Norman:
Yes.

Penny McGoey:
And remembering we have that power in ourselves. And it's. No matter what is happening in your dynamic, in your relationship, no matter what is happening, it is our responsibility and ours alone to manage our own peace. And it's hard. Like, I've been married to bill for 35 years. Right. I know him like I'm breathing. We've been together since we were 19 years old.

Jennifer Norman:
Right?

Penny McGoey:
Right. So the idea that when there's disruption over here, to be able to stay level and balanced inside of myself, that's. It's nearly impossible. Right. For couples to pull that off. But nevertheless, when I am out of sync with myself, it's nearly impossible for me to show up in sync in my partnerships.

Jennifer Norman:
True, true.

Penny McGoey:
And so if we can just get to that point where we look at each other as equal humans, just equal humans. Flawed, imperfect, figuring it out, falling on our face, failing. It helps us to be able to go, okay, my partner's just doing the best they can. Even if the best they can looks like absolute garbage sometimes. Right? Because I know for me, sometimes the best I can do is just really not. Not even close to what I would want it to be sometimes.

Jennifer Norman:
So how would you advise couples where one person is doing the work, is self reflective, getting themselves healthy. They're getting sunlight, eating well, drinking enough water, getting enough sleep, doing all. Checking all the boxes, doing all the healthy things, meditating, gratitude, all the journaling, all of that, really working on themselves and the other person is not along for the ride, just is not able to get to that place of connection. How would then Obviously we don't want to say, well, you're not doing work. How would that work if there isn't the two way street.

Penny McGoey:
Well, I think having balance and equity in your relationships really important. And if one of you is carrying the load, which I know you understand at times I may be carrying 80% of our relationship sometimes because my partner's not in a good spot, but when that becomes all the time. Yeah. Then we've moved over into codependency.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Penny McGoey:
Okay.

Jennifer Norman:
So unhealthy.

Penny McGoey:
I'm doing self care and now I'm carrying the weight of this relationship. And so who's taking care of me? Right.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. It's not sustainable.

Penny McGoey:
I'm taking care of me. Right. But it isn't sustainable in a partnership because that's the absolute. The point of the whole thing.

Jennifer Norman:
Right, right.

Penny McGoey:
Is that you're going to have somebody to walk beside on this journey and it's going to make you stronger, it's going to make you healthier. But if you have someone that doesn't see you and doesn't see themselves, there's only a certain amount of time that that can continue before there's not really much left to work with. Yeah. So I know that doesn't sound very positive, does it?

Jennifer Norman:
And it doesn't have to, but it can be realistic and it can be honest and it is both.

Penny McGoey:
I was working with a client yesterday and I advised her she has a husband who has a midlife. He's been involved in three affairs in the last six months and continues to be dishonest with her. And then flim flam back and forth. Right. Yeah. Want to get back together with her and then doesn't. And I had to just say to her, it's not your job to carry the weight of this relationship. It's not your job.

Penny McGoey:
Your job is to come with truth to your partner and say, I need these things, I want these things and I can do this and I'm willing to do these things with you and for you, but I need these things from you. I need this together. And I understand maybe you don't know how to do them, but are you willing to try? Are you willing to learn? Are you willing to grow with me? Because at some point I know women that have spent 10, 15, 20 years. I know women that have been doing this for 10, 15, 20 years, settling and there's nothing left almost of themselves by the time a marriage dissolves. Remember how we were talking about earlier? Oh, I'm going to stay together for the kids. Yes. No, that takes its toll. You can't.

Penny McGoey:
Someone's going to pay that bill. Wow. Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
Now, speaking about infidelity because there certainly are situations where a person makes a mistake and oh yeah, perhaps that is forgivable in some cases it's very hard because there's so much injury and mistrust and all of that. And it becomes very hard. The forgiveness becomes extremely hard. Understandably so. But there can be forgiveness if there is chronic infidelity like it sounds like this individual has.

Penny McGoey:
Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
Is there a way back to reparation without that other person being able to really stop? I think that it would only happen if the couples got together and said, you know what, we're going to have an open relationship now. And at least it's mutually, you know, agreed upon and there's no misunderstanding, there's no disposal, distressed. You're doing it openly and honestly. But when there's a subversive activity going on that undermines the core trust of a relationship, ooh, that is hard. It's hard.

Penny McGoey:
How?

Jennifer Norman:
How does that get repaired?

Penny McGoey:
I think there's a lot of conversation around this. Like you said, there's some people who are like, we were never intended to be monogamous in the first place. This is a man made, religion based paradigm and it has no place. Right. And you have some people that you know are. Polyamory is a beautiful option for them. And. But for couples that do choose to be in marriage, in monogamy and find themselves in infidelity, and I don't ever feel like it's like a, whoops, I landed in bed with someone else.

Penny McGoey:
Okay. It's like landed in bed, just flips in and out.

Jennifer Norman:
I don't know how it happens.

Penny McGoey:
I mean, it was here one minute and then, you know. I know, right? The visual.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, my God. Just wandered over there.

Penny McGoey:
Just wandered over there.

Jennifer Norman:
I don't know I'm gonna have that happen. Okay, cool.

Penny McGoey:
I think there is a, a process of disconnection that begins to happen. And I don't think that infidelity is indicative of a bad relationship. I don't think infidelity, from what I've been able to see, is indicative of not loving another person, which. It shocks me. Research has shown that infidelity is at its highest point for men. This was a research that I had read when their wives are pregnant or have newborn babies or are facing a terminal ill or chronic illness. And I mean, as a woman, I'm like, it's devastating areas right now.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, that's devastating.

Penny McGoey:
Can you not. I mean, don't tell me you love me if you can't hold it together when I need you. The absolute most. Right. But I think the reality is this isn't. Infidelity is not about love and infidelity is not about sex.

Jennifer Norman:
So funny that.

Penny McGoey:
Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
There is a conflation of love and sex. Love equals sex. Sex equals love. If you are not gonna have sex, then you don't love me. Or, and, and it's not true. They are completely separate. I shouldn't say completely separate because it is, it's supposed to be an act of love.

Penny McGoey:
But yeah, within a healthy marriage, within a healthy relationship, it is a loving act. Right.

Jennifer Norman:
But it's also physical release. I mean it's a biological physical release too.

Penny McGoey:
And it is a flush of chemicals. It is a very physical process. And when someone we can start talking about like when someone is lacking in direction, purpose, self, love, and they aren't willing to do the work, to look inside and do the change, then there's a process. I'm going to start blaming my partner and I'm going to start looking for validation and distraction. I need somebody to make me feel better because I don't feel okay. Yeah. And that is not indicative of a bad marriage. It's not.

Penny McGoey:
What it is a lot of times is that someone is not okay with who they are and where they're at and they're not ready or willing to do the work on themselves. So they look for the easy escape and the unfortunate piece about long term relationship. When you have sex with your long term partner, you can have off the wall banging, scream and orgasm. But it's not ever going to be the same as the chemicals that are released and the hormones that are released when you are in brand new relationship with a new person.

Jennifer Norman:
The Coolidge Effect, right.

Penny McGoey:
There is just something. And so there's no competition between the two. You know, long term relationship is about knitting and bonding ourselves to someone else for the good and the bad and carrying the weight. New relationship is fantasy and that doesn't matter. If someone begins to create that habit of infidelity, it becomes addiction and they need to deal with addiction. So the answer to your question, taking Alice in Wonderland trail to get there is the answer to your question is yes, it's possible to heal and recover. Not without work.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh yeah.

Penny McGoey:
Chronic infidelity is a sign of addiction and addiction needs work. You don't just. I'm going to self will myself to be better. Do good. It's like the obesity epidemic. It's very similar. If the idea that I'm just going to eat better and exercise was gonna work, then we would all Just do it. It's not about that.

Penny McGoey:
It's about what's going on inside and what that food feeds for us in our mental health. And so very similar in relationship and in addiction to infidelity. That sexual rush, the tease, the flirt, the whole thing, that whole aspect has.

Jennifer Norman:
To get dealt with because otherwise it.

Penny McGoey:
Will just carry on. But I have seen a lot of couples, I mean, a lot of couples, a majority of couples that face infidelity stay together, which is shocking. Most people don't realize that. Well, but the majority, like 65% of couples who faced infidelity stay together. And here's another lovely, enlightening fact. Over 50% of relationships will face some type of infidelity. Now, when I say that, I don't mean is it always a full, full blown sex or physical relationship with another person? No. Sometimes it's it's flirtation, sometimes it's pornography, sometimes it's emotional, sometimes it's secret reconnection.

Penny McGoey:
The sneaky apps that are out now for people to be able to, you know, do the sneaky thing. Yeah. So when half of relationships are going to experience that, over 65% of those choose to stay together. So when they choose to stay together, the only way I can see that that works is repairing the terror and the disconnection that's created by the dishonesty, being willing to do that work. Wow.

Jennifer Norman:
It's almost like if, if at midlife somebody starts to have infidelity, are they seeking that youthful vigor and vim in some cases that they might have had when they were young? Are they pining for a youth that they once had and feeling more attractive and whatnot? Do they feel that that's part of the excitement that might have been lost over a relationship?

Penny McGoey:
Right. Because they're questioning a lot of things. Like, they're questioning, you know, did I, God, my kids are launching into the world, Did I do right by them? They're looking at their careers and saying, I invested so much time and energy into this. Was this what it was all for? And they're questioning their relationship and they're going, oh my God, we do the same thing every day is. It's like Groundhog Day. So there is a time when a couple just has to stop and go, okay, how can we just get regrounded here? Like, what isn't working? Like I said that state of the union. And if couples can create a habit of this, where it's not just, okay, this relationship is just about to end. It's a nightmare.

Penny McGoey:
Right. Nobody wants to be in it anymore. If we could start earlier, learning how to have that radical honesty, learning how to check in with ourselves and then check in with each other and make that a consistent part of our dynamic in our relationship. You're protecting your future relationship by doing that.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow. Now what about Gary Chapman and the five love languages? Wasn't that the cure for every single marriage? Why aren't we all just 100% married with the 5 love languages out there? What's your opinion on that?

Penny McGoey:
I have heard the five love languages coming under some attack lately.

Jennifer Norman:
Okay.

Penny McGoey:
I was reading on a forum and they were just basically saying juvenile. To think that people just need these five different forms of communication, you know, this affirmation within the relationship to. To thrive. I do think that all of us do have predominant love languages. Things that resonate for me. I bring this more. So back to attachment. And what is it that we needed as children in our childhood to feel loved and seen and supported and challenged? What did we need? What did we not get? How did we compensate for what we didn't get? And how has that changed the way we show up in our relationship? Because chances are real good if a child who has abandonment issues goes into adulthood and they find a partner, they're going to be very sensitive around abandonment.

Penny McGoey:
So for those people, acts of kindness and quality time are going to be very, very big to them, right? Or you have another person that they were told their sexuality was dirty and wrong and all these other things when they're growing up, so they sh. You know, shame guards things and they became all these things. So then they get into their long term partnership. And now physical touch is an extremely important part of that. So I think I would never diss Gary Chapman. I think the book was beautiful. I've read it like five times over the course of 35 years. But I think deeper, when you pull back those, those layers, is looking at attachment theory and asking yourself, why do I need the things I need and can I share that with my partner? I remember a time my husband and I really hit a rough spot at about 48 years.

Penny McGoey:
I mean, when I was about 48 years old, we were about 28 years married. We had a real rough patch and it lasted for a few years. And I remembered at some point, just at the end of myself realizing, oh my God, I have such abandonment and rejection issues. I have such a fear of never being enough for him. Where did that come from? And working with my therapist and figuring out, oh my God, this is where that came from. And not to throw shade on my parents or anybody else in my life, because that's never the point, in my opinion.

Jennifer Norman:
Right, right.

Penny McGoey:
It's more how can I learn how to accept myself, love myself, allow myself to be enough and bring to my partner my weakness and my fear and say, this is why I sometimes cling, because I tend to be anxious in attachment. So I can say to him, sometimes when we're having a disagreement and I start over pursuing you, it's because I'm afraid you're pulling back and I don't want to be left alone.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, wow. That is so beautiful that you were able to discover that within yourself.

Penny McGoey:
I think that a lot of it was an ugly mess, Jennifer. It was an ugly mess getting there.

Jennifer Norman:
Well, yeah, but eventually it turned into a beautiful mess. Right? But, yeah, I think a lot of times, you know, we get into these habits of blaming our upbringing, blaming our parents, and, and. And I was in that place for a whole long time as well, until ultimately I was like, you know what? Everybody's just doing the best they can with what they have. I mean, they're exhausted. They're like, they didn't have the same tools that we now have today. I mean, we don't have podcasts to explain these things or they didn't have them. And so, yeah, they were obviously just doing the best they can. And yeah, they did a pretty good job with what they had.

Jennifer Norman:
And if we go into the relationship blaming our abandonment on our parents, then what's the relationship gonna be like between the in laws and it's gonna be just a disaster. And so you want to really say, okay, well, this is what happened. We embrace it for what it is. This is my wounded child coming forward and saying, this is the reason why I am like this. Can we work with this until I can heal from it? Because I know I have work to do here. And rather than it coming up and recurring and recurring, let's just address the elephant in the room and honor it and it some light and love and send it on its way.

Penny McGoey:
Yeah. And it's such a. I know for my husband and I like that moment when I was able to. To see why I do what I do. And he was able to see why he at times pulls back. So I push forward. He pulls back, of course. What a horrible cycle.

Penny McGoey:
It leaves me feeling terrified and leaves him feeling overwhelmed. If we can't ever get to a point where we can come together and say, this is where this comes from for me, I don't need you to fix or save me. But I do need you to understand me. And that is where. When we talk about. Because I am a relationship and marriage coach, I'm not a relationship and marriage therapist. Okay. So the difference between the two, and I think this is imperative to talk about with couples.

Penny McGoey:
So a therapist is going to take you back and unearth where those wounds came from, how those have impacted you, and systematically disrupt that way of being and produce something different. For me as a marriage coach, I look at it more like we are setting a goal of a solid, thriving marriage. What are the things that are standing in the way of that? And if one of those happens to be a lack of communication or an unhealthy pattern of conflict resolution or that whole push pull thing that we have going with attachment, whatever it is, I'm like, okay, so these are the things we need to figure out. And let's tackle those. Let's try to understand them. Let's be curious. Let's be curious about ourselves and curious about our partners. Right? Let's, like.

Penny McGoey:
Because, you know, so often we have the story that runs in our head, right?

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, yeah.

Penny McGoey:
He's acting like this because he must think like this or feel like this. And then that's all, because I'm like, this, this. We get this whole, like, epic novel going in our head about what's happening. And a lot of times there are pieces of truth to that, but it's not the real whole story. It's not the whole truth. And so I think that's where I consider my job as a coach, is to help shine a light on what's the actual true story here. And remember that you have authorship. Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
And if you're an introvert, you're keeping it to yourself and silently judging all the time.

Penny McGoey:
Yes, yes. And if you're an extrovert, you're a narcissist, and you're selfish, you don't give a shit about anybody else. Right. I mean, like.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, gosh. Oh, my God.

Penny McGoey:
Pop psychology.

Jennifer Norman:
That's funny right now it's.

Penny McGoey:
It's.

Jennifer Norman:
Everything is out in the open. Well, I think that's a good point. But to describe the differences between when somebody would need or want a coach versus when somebody would want or need therapy, and when there is an opportunity to layer both, what would you suggest?

Penny McGoey:
So I'm gonna. We're gonna delve into a couple pieces here just to kind of explain it. I would say this. I am not trained to speak to trauma. I am not trained to speak to addiction, abuse, mental illness, medication, so some.

Jennifer Norman:
More medical, clinical type.

Penny McGoey:
Yeah, yeah, okay, Right, got it. And so we need someone who is. Is an expert in those issues to help individuals and couples facing those issues. Now a coach, on the other hand, they can look and they could say, I just feel like maybe. For example, here's a common One client I was working with yesterday, I love her, but I just don't know if I'm in love with her. Oh, I'm your coach. We're going to figure out if you're in love with your wife life. We're going to find out what love really means to you, what it means to your partner.

Penny McGoey:
Let's get some goals in place here. Like what do we want to see come out of this? And then I help that couple unearth what's not working now in that process. Many times one of them or both of them may need to seek an individual therapist to process through trauma, addiction, abuse, those kind of things. Right. Because those are very real pieces of who we are in our humanity.

Jennifer Norman:
Got it.

Penny McGoey:
And maybe haven't been dealt with before, but a lot of times a couple can just have a light shined on things and be given tools that are proactive, that are going to point them in the right direction and some accountability from outside of themselves to. To be able to look inside at their relationship and themselves in a new way. That's where a coach is really super handy.

Jennifer Norman:
I suppose it's not bad to use the analogy to a sports coach and like a physical therapist or somebody on the sidelines. Like if you've got a deep injury, then you need the physical therapist or the medical practitioner to actually look at that injury of the musc or the bone or whatever is going on. But if you need to know how to play the game better and how your actions and what you can do in order to achieve the kind of outcome and the goal that you want. And a lot of times that can be most of the game, as it were. Yeah, it can be. It can really be your, your performance and, and how you're showing up to the game and those habits and those ways that you are delivering your best self at the game of life, of your relationship, then perhaps that, that's kind of the analogy.

Penny McGoey:
Well, and remembering too that like you can hire a coach, like a personal trainer. We've hit a wall. We need to get some better communication skills on board. Or we've hit a wall. And what. Where our sex life once was and where it is right now, something's not right. Let me help them jive. I can help them figure out how to jive.

Penny McGoey:
So you can bring in a coach situationally. Right, right. Where a therapist is going to be somebody who digs a little deeper and helps. Helps pave a different kind of a direction. Yeah, for me, I'm. I'm a very goal oriented type person with couples.

Jennifer Norman:
That makes really good sense.

Penny McGoey:
Yeah, exactly. And like you said, it's like that coach can be on the field, that player can get hit, he can look down and say, dude, your leg is broken. Can he reset it? Can you do the surgery to fix it? No, he can see the issue. He's going to send you to a special orthopedic surgeon and get it fixed. And so I think there is room for both things. I think it's a huge mistake when couples go to therapy and feel like it just unearths wounds and they don't ever get moving forward together.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Penny McGoey:
Sometimes the coaches need it there.

Jennifer Norman:
Right.

Penny McGoey:
Where sometimes I think couples can try to avoid the deep shadow and just focus on this. And then that's a sign that, hey, maybe you needed to look at the deep shadow. Right. In your life and in your relationship. And so you might need a therapist or a professional licensed counselor.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, very good. Discernment. So you also, as a coach, talk about creating a relational atmosphere. I would love to know what that means. And it nurtures and protects the partnership. Can you tell us how a couple can foster a relational atmosphere that does encourage lifelong connection and growth?

Penny McGoey:
Yes, I can. So when I talk about relational atmosphere, I am thinking about, and I just think about our planet and imagine your relationship as a little planet. Okay. The relationship's a little planet. And the atmosphere protects our planet from UV rays, from comets, meteors, all kinds of things hitting us. It protects us from too much heat, too much cold. Right. So our atmosphere is constantly at work, and there are layers of it.

Penny McGoey:
Right?

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Penny McGoey:
And so if you can imagine and create that same analogy within your relationship, here's your relationship, your little planet, and what you two do together to create a safe place for that relationship to thrive, that becomes your relational atmosphere. And there's layers of that. And I do work couples through that process. But just suffice it to say, what are the things that are going to keep that relationship being the most important thing? Something that we could remember on an environmental level. Right. It's an important thing. And so relationally, we keep our little planet safe and held and nurtured. And we do that by doing these things.

Penny McGoey:
We. It's how we talk about one Another, it's how we communicate with one another. It's the access we give people outside of our partnership. And that can even include your children, like how much access you grant your children to you. At times. We give our. We like our kids are running around little tyrants running our entire marriage and household. Right, right.

Penny McGoey:
And so the role of your career, you know, what are the limits and boundaries and guidelines that we create as a couple? Because there's not a individual right way, wrong way. It's how do these two beautiful people come together and protect their little planet? You know, for some couples, maybe polyamory is one of the ways they protect their little planet, but that's between those two people. So I think it's really a beautiful thing for me visually, to think about the steps and the agreements that a couple makes as being layers of that protection for their relationship.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow, that is really interesting. And so for everybody who's listening, this is such a great opportunity for you to go and see what Penny's up to, see what she offers. She is an amazing relationship couples coach that could really, really be the answer to the midlife messy middle of your marriage. Please look her up. Hanni, can you tell everybody all of your details so they know where to find you?

Penny McGoey:
Absolutely. Thank you so much, Jennifer, for having me. First of all, thank you so much. You can find me at rootedandrisencoaching.com. That's my website.

Penny McGoey:
You can also find me on Instagram, @RootedandRisenCoaching. And I would love to hang out with you on socials. I also am on LinkedIn and Facebook, so pulse in with me. And I offer in person work with couples, but I also can do virtual coaching all over the world. I'm up here in the great frozen north, which we're already getting snow up here, so God help us. But I can also do weekend intensive with couples so I can travel to where a couple is and we can just focus a hundred percent on a couple's situation. That is something that happens a lot with infidelity. That's where that comes in very handy because it's an absolute crisis in that moment. So I can help couples through stuff like that, but I also offer online courses and workshops.

Jennifer Norman:
Excellent. Penny McGoey, working that midlife marriage magic. Yes. I really appreciate you being my guest today on The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Thank you so much for all of your work and for being a beautiful human.

Penny McGoey:
Thank you so much, Jennifer. Have a wonderful day.

Jennifer Norman:
Have a wonderful day. Thank you for listening to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Be sure to follow, follow rate and review us wherever you stream podcasts The Human Beauty Movement is a community based platform that cultivates the beauty of humankind. Check out our workshops, find us on social media, and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more at thehumanbeautymovement.com. Thank you so much for being a beautiful human.