Goodbye Shame, Hello Self Confidence with Marci Warhaft

Jennifer Norman:
Hello beautiful humans. Welcome to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast, your source for hope, healing, happiness and humanity. My name is Jennifer Norman. I'm the founder of The Human Beauty Movement and your host. This podcast is here to guide you on your journey of self love, empowerment, soul alignment and joy. With each episode, I invite beautiful humans from all corners of the globe to join me for open conversations about their life lessons and the important work that they are doing to help heal humankind. Take a moment now to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode. I'm so glad you're here, joining me for today's show.

Jennifer Norman:
Hello beautiful humans. This episode is is such an important one. It's pivotal to what The Human Beauty Movement is all about. We are going to dive deep into the topic of body image. To aid in this discussion, I'm thrilled to welcome Marci Warhaft as our special guest. Marci is a body image expert and resiliency coach. She was named one of Canada's top 100 health influencers and founded the Fit vs. Fiction Body Image Workshops.

Jennifer Norman:
She's authored two books, The Body Image Survival Guide for Parents and The Good Stripper: A Soccer Mom's Memoir of Lies, Loss and Lap Dances. Today, she uses her experiences to help others release themselves of the shame, guilt and insecurities that keep them from living their lives with the joy they deserve. In our conversation, we'll dive deep into Marci's personal story and explore her mission to help others embrace body acceptance. For anyone struggling with their own body image or feeling the weight of societal pressures, this episode will offer invaluable insights. You'll learn about the tools Marci uses to guide others towards self love, how to reframe harmful narratives, and why embracing our bodies exactly as they are is an act of courage and strength. A trigger warning that during our conversation we're going to talk about some pretty sensitive topics including death, eating disorders, mental health and divorce. An important note that neither I nor my guests are doctors, nutritionists or therapists. This podcast is for information and entertainment. We do not treat, prevent or cure any diseases and we don't offer medical advice. No one is responsible for your health and wellness, but you so do seek the counsel of accredited professionals for your own individual care.

Jennifer Norman:
Now it's time to welcome my awesome guest. Hi Marci. Welcome to the Human Beauty Movement Podcast.

Marci Warhaft:
Hello Jennifer. I'm so happy to be here to chat with you.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you so much for being here. Let's begin by discussing the turning point in your life that set you on your path of positive body image advocacy, because you have a powerful backstory. How did this help you to arrive at the work of helping people of all ages build healthy self esteem?

Marci Warhaft:
Well, I'll tell you this. It is a long story starting when I was a teenager. And what I will say is this. A lot of things happen in our lives that steer us in one direction or take us away from different things. And I think when I started out in life, I was this very confident, outspoken little kid that thought I could do anything. But then life challenged me and threw some things at me, some losses and some traumas that I wasn't prepared for and wasn't equipped to handle. And I think what happens is things like fear and shame and guilt lead us to paths that we don't expect. Sometimes it leads us to places we weren't expecting and we do things that we would never do otherwise.

Marci Warhaft:
But then from that we create more guilt and more shame and more fear. And that becomes a theme in our lives. And I think that those three things carried me for so long and it took me into bad relationships. I had a lot of loss, I had a lot of betrayal. I had physical challenges, illnesses, I had my eating disorder that I had to deal with. I had a lot of stuff that again led me to places and to become almost another version of myself to lead a double life to find I was so struggling for self worth. I had lost my self worth and I was struggling to find self worth. And I lost all the people in my life who made me feel loved and supported and worthy of being here.

Marci Warhaft:
And I stopped believing that I deserved to be healthy and I deserved to be happy and that that was very dangerous for me physically, for me emotionally, psychologically. So it was only when I got to a point. Well, there were two points, actually. There was the first point in my life. I was a mom. I was married, but not in a good relationship. I adored my children, who were quite young at the time. And I felt that I had to get healthy and make changes in my life for them or my kids.

Marci Warhaft:
I often say that I gave my kids life, but they saved mine because it was through. I had given up on myself, but I wasn't ready to give up on myself for them. They needed a mom. And so that was the first step was I'm going to get healthy emotionally, psychologically, physically. And that was great. So I was able to put some of the darkness in my life to the side. But I hadn't quite dealt with them. So you can't really push something away without dealing with it.

Marci Warhaft:
And I was carrying a lot of shame and guilt for mistakes that I had made when I was just doing my best to survive. And it was. That surprised me. I didn't realize I was still. Even though I was kind of moving forward and I was doing the body image thing, becoming an advocate and being a great mom, I still was carrying some shame and guilt over some mistakes. Let's say that I perceived, self-perceived mistakes and flaws.

Marci Warhaft:
And so it was only a few years ago when I reached the point when I thought, I'm done feeling shame, I'm done feeling guilt. I'm done living in fear over the fact that maybe one day my past will come up to haunt me. Maybe my kids will find out things about me and they'll stop loving me. Maybe my friends will lose respect for me. I was like, you know what? I did the best I could when. With what I was given at the time. And my intention was never to hurt anyone.

Marci Warhaft:
And it was time to kind of take responsibility for what, let's say the mistakes I had made, but also to stop beating myself up over them. And I decided to share everything, to kind of open up and say, this is me, the good, the bad and the ugly. I'm okay with it. I'm a different person. I'm the same person, different version of that person. And I'm moving forward. And if you want to come with me and move forward with me, great. If you don't want to, that's okay too.

Marci Warhaft:
And that was what was so life changing, was just saying, I'm done with the guilt. Time to move forward.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. And that part of it may take a long time for you. For myself, I mean, sometimes it takes decades. Decades. Decades. Decades. Especially if some sort of a trauma or some ingrained beliefs about yourself, such as you are not worthy or you have no control or you are not safe. All of those things can really get trapped inside our belief system. And shaking that is very, very difficult.

Jennifer Norman:
And so for you and for myself, I think that these things manifest themselves in unusual ways. We both share that we've had eating disorders as part of our history. There is this sense that if there's something that I can control in my life, then it'll be my body or it'll be the way that I eat or the way that I am going to strive for perfection, whatever that means or whatever that looks like to you. And for women particularly, a lot of it has to do with what your dress size or how you look or are you attractive. You find your sense of self worth in the gaze of another person that you're trying to become intimate with. And so a lot of that feeds our egos and it feeds our, like, false sense of control.

Jennifer Norman:
And sometimes other people might step into other kinds of addictions. It could be food, alcohol, drugs. It could be work. A lot of people are addicted to work because that fulfills a sense of purpose or self worth for them. It could be so many things, and sometimes we have to take pause and think to ourselves, all right, what is this doing in my life? If I am really striving for health and happiness, Is it going to be this, Is this making me happy or is it just embittering me or trapping me into this behavior or this mindset that is just serving the greater demon, you know, that I'm just like, trying to run away from this shame or this guilt or this feeling that I'm not enough. How did you find that you could finally work through that and release it? It might not be an easy answer for sure.

Marci Warhaft:
Well, it's like you said. Well, sorry, it's like you said. It did. It did take a really, really long time. And there's a lot of self talk. But it's funny because as you were speaking, I'm thinking it's so funny that we even say self worth. We even use that because while you're talking and you're talking about how we were looking for this outside validation, it wasn't self worth. We weren't looking for... Self worth, it would be if we didn't care about what other people thought about our position at work or how we look. Or how much we weigh or how big our house is or whatever it is. But that's not what self worth is. And it's so funny that we call it that.

Marci Warhaft:
But if we all had self worth, it wouldn't matter what other people... And also when you talked about how with us, you know, with people who struggle with their looks or their body and that kind of thing and the body image and how really trying to change ourselves so that we appease the...and we appeal to the people that we want to be with, it's funny because it's not even that. I mean, it's... I remember feeling the need to impress people that I had no interest in being with, that I had no, I wasn't interested in them.

Marci Warhaft:
So it's... When your self worth is so low that you need it, you need it. And it's like you said, it could be anything. And the problem is when it comes to things from the outside, when it comes to certain parts of how we look or our job, it's so conditional. And self love can't be conditional.

Marci Warhaft:
And it is so much. I'll love myself if I lose ten pounds, I'll love myself if I get the promotion. I'll love myself when I'm living in this place. And we can't do that. Our love can't be conditional. And I also, I see all the time too, because I've had people, I've been speaking about body image since 2007, and I've had people who say, oh, you know, you're, you're validating the unhealthy. Because I say that fit bodies can come in different shapes and sizes. And I'm not saying that.

Marci Warhaft:
In fact, I've been, I'm very into fitness now. I've gone back to teaching fitness classes. And it's very important for me to feel strong. And I know I'm not comfortable being over where I like to be. I'm not comfortable being under where I like to be. There's. There's a comfort there. However, I will say that even somebody who might be overweight to.

Marci Warhaft:
Because what does overweight mean? Our society is so messed up with that. But to a point, let's say where, you know, it's unhealthy. And people say to me, well, if somebody's unhealthy because they're overweight, they should love themselves. And I'm like, yeah, actually they should. There's a difference between loving who you are and where you are. So it doesn't matter how you look, what your weight is, what your job is, what your financial situation. Always love yourself. Now, it's because we love ourselves that we want to strive for the things that we want.

Marci Warhaft:
So because I love myself, I got myself healthy. Because I love myself. I set goals for myself and stopped telling myself that I didn't deserve it or that I wasn't smart enough or I wasn't capable of. Because I love myself. So what we do in our society is we try to hate ourselves to success. Yeah, I'm gonna. I am going to forget family, forget social life, forget. I'm gonna work my butt off every minute of the day, even if it makes me sick.

Marci Warhaft:
And I don't... I have to miss family things and I have to miss social events because I want to strike... That's not healthy. Or I'm... I Am going to beat myself up by over-exercising and not ever eating the foods I like and under eating because I want it. Those things never work. You have to love yourself in order to believe that you deserve to be healthy and you deserve to be happy and then you do the things that will get you there. But I think we come at things so backwards and for me it was a lot of self talk.

Marci Warhaft:
It's a lot, it's still a lot of self talk. But it's this thing of I've done all the things that don't work. I've done the extremes that don't work. I've beaten myself up over things that where I thought that I was doing everything wrong. Where did that get me? That didn't help. That didn't get me any closer to where I needed to be. So I realized, okay, if that doesn't work, it being really hard on myself doesn't work. So maybe I should try something else.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Marci Warhaft:
And maybe I should try to be kinder and more patient with myself.

Jennifer Norman:
Beautiful. I was thinking about this and speaking with some folks from other cultures because I think that there is also some of this is cultural and then some of it is just our conditioning regardless of what culture that we are in that the fear based or very militant if we think about being in armed forces or what have you, where people are like, you know, yelling at you to get things done and you're acting quickly. And so there's like this sense of fear or striving and hard work and ardor. And a lot of times there is and it is motivating. It's like, you know, I want to fear the stick. This part's the stick. And I'm going to get somewhere because I hate where I am and I need to get better and I need to strive. And it's like, like venomous animosity against yourself that is causing you to propel forward and be what in certain societal circles you'd call success.

Jennifer Norman:
But then at what cost? Like, you know, how are you feeling truly? And how can you know, how are your relationships? Are they adversarial? Are they combative? Versus using the carrot, which is more love based, which might be more fulfillment and joy is like I'm happy with where I am, I'm happy with who I am, but I know I can improve or I'm eager and I'm enthusiastic to continue growing, to continue evolving out of curiosity, I want to see what else is in store for me. And then learning about other people, learning about your environment, learning so that is a different tact that propels you forward, and it's based upon this whole expansiveness rather than fear. And certainly a lot of people might say, oh, that's very feminine, or, oh, it takes too long. It's not really what true success, us is about. Happiness is for wimps, you know, and so there's a. There's certainly a cultural and conditioning mindset between one or the other. Which would you choose, you know, for yourself? I know that for many, many years I lived over here where it was all about self loathing. I, you know, I had aspirations.

Jennifer Norman:
I had like, as like a grown ass adult. I would have pictures of like Christy Turlington pinned to my wall. Like, I want to be that I will never be Christy. But like, because I wasn't her, I hated myself. And it was like, why can't my legs be two feet longer? And so I hated myself because I was not that versus it's like, you know what? I love the package that I came in. I accept it now. I embrace it. I'm healthy, does so much for me realizing with gratitude all of the good things that your body does and like, not hating on it so much.

Jennifer Norman:
And gosh, if it was a best friend, would you really talk to your best friend that way? And so, yeah, kind of nurturing this relationship with yourself that, you know, it's not. It's like if you feel like, you know, you're not comfortable in your jeans and then you have the opportunity to change, change that, that's fine. But it's done from a place of care and love and continuous improvement. Not out of I hate myself and I'm gonna just like, right, you know, slam myself and starve myself and do all of these things that are, you know, just not very kind to myself in order to get there.

Marci Warhaft:
Absolutely. I think the other thing that people don't realize is, first of all, it's not sustainable. Right. If we strive for perfection. It's not. It's really not.

Marci Warhaft:
But the other thing too is what happens if everything, your entire focus, every fiber of your being is focused on the body that you want or the job that you want, or what if you get it, but then you lose it? What if, you know, you have. And it's happened to me with my body, I got myself to the place where I wanted, and then I was my. I had this horrible illness that put me in the hospital for months, and I had to learn how to walk again and breathe again. And doctor said I'd never be strong again. And I had to decide, no, I'm going to be stronger and. And rebuild. But I could have given up because here I had it, and then I had to. I had to know, wait, it's going to be slow, but I will get there.

Marci Warhaft:
Same thing. You know, you could have the best job and you could have worked your butt off and gotten the best job in the world, and then something happens, and either the company goes under or something. And you. Now you're back, you don't have a job anymore, are you going to. Are you going to fold? Is that it? Because your entire identity is based on that. If you put your entire identity on what that goal is, and then something happens, you, and you have no idea who you are anymore, that could be devastating. However, if you've given yourself the grace, you've given yourself the time to even stumble and to figure out what works and what doesn't work, then if something doesn't go wrong, you go, okay, wait a second.

Marci Warhaft:
This isn't great. I'm shaken, but I'm not broken. And you'll take the time to go, okay. Okay. I know what it's like to not be perfect. I know what it's. I know what it's like to not have everything I want. I also know what it's like to get close or to get it.

Marci Warhaft:
I can do it again. I'm going to give myself the time to figure out how to do it next because I know I'm worthy of it. But it's when you put your. Into higher identity into something, and then you lose it and you lose yourself. That's where the. That's where the danger is. And that's when we become vulnerable to the wrong people, the wrong circumstances where we jump at things and accept things that. That are less than we deserve because we think, well, I have nothing left.

Marci Warhaft:
So I think we put so much pressure on ourselves. And I do think it gets to the point where, yeah, our society is. Is really tough. And I say all the time, social media is full of quotes saying, just be you, but then it's also saying, but not like that, you know, and. And live your best life. As long as your life looks like my life. Like, there's still a ton of judgment, and we have to really learn how to. How to let that go.

Marci Warhaft:
And it's such a cliche, but that is. It's a real turning point when you can realize it's really you. It's really you at the beginning, it's really you at the end. And you have to be true to yourself. Because the people, like I said earlier, the people who will cheer you on, they're going to be there as long as you're doing what. What's. What's good for you and what's healthy and what's happy. And the people who are going to judge you, you don't need their approval anyway.

Marci Warhaft:
You know, that whole thing, don't worry about that everyone liking you. You don't like everyone. You know, don't worry about everyone agreeing with your. With what you. Your choices you make in life. You don't agree with everyone's choices in life. We're not, we're not supposed to. I'm me, you're you.

Marci Warhaft:
Respect that. That we give ourselves and each other the freedom to become the best versions of ourselves that we can.

Jennifer Norman:
Absolutely. I think that it's worth mentioning that, you know, both of us are in our 50s now, and we have gone through this, you know, in early, earlier days, up through our twenties. And then all of a sudden we come to this place of acceptance. And some might say, well, that's the journey of a lot of people. It's like they're trying to figure themselves out when they're young and when, you know, because the brain is still evolving until you're in your 20s. Especially for women, we... Our brains evolve and we evolve so that socialization is extremely important. Important right around puberty and into, like, the late teens.

Jennifer Norman:
And social acceptance is like, you know, that is the be all, end all. And so it becomes very difficult at that point of life to say, well, am I doing this because I want to be accepted, or am I doing this for me? Maybe doing it for me. And so the clarity there is. It's very. It can be confusing, and it can also be liberating once you recognize, well, this. This is what happens. And I know that there are healthy ways to socialize and there are unhealthy ways to socialize. How will I be able to get that discernment, to know how I'm feeling in my body, to arrive at a place where I really am enjoying life and I'm appreciating the social circles and the feed that I've, you know, now algorithmically created for myself?

Jennifer Norman:
I was amazed to learn that 91% of women are unhappy with their bodies, and 95% of people with eating disorders are only between the ages of 12 and 25. And so it's kind of like there's something that we have not yet been able to tell our young people and inform them about body acceptance and validation and at what point we can make that divide. I know that you have been doing some work in order to help young people get to a place of, you know, positive body image. So I'm curious what your take is on what you're seeing and healthy ways that you're helping them to be able to accept themselves but continuously improve.

Marci Warhaft:
It's tough. There's so many things. I mean, to go back for a second. I mean, I do think there's some validity to what you said about... There is something with, as we get older, understanding ourselves better, and it's a gift. So when people say, sometimes, oh, you're too old too, I'm like, what are you talking. I couldn't be me until my 50s, you know, and I'm going to keep changing.

Marci Warhaft:
I mean, I can't even imagine. There's no way with people think that, you know, women at her prime is so much younger. I disagree. Fiercely disagree, because it took me half a century to even begin to figure out who I was. And I also think that. That the great thing, though, about going through the different stages and ages is that you can change your mind. I mean, that's. And that's something that a lot of people struggle with.

Marci Warhaft:
Like, if I, If I absolutely believed in something when I was 25, I'm allowed to change my mind later on. If I believed in fiercely two years ago, I'm allowed to change my mind. And I don't think we give ourselves and other people the opportunity to do that. I think that the more you learn, you have. A lot of people aren't open to learning more. They pick a side, they pick an idea, an opinion, and they stick to it. I prefer to open up my brain and learn from people who know more than me and get more information, more facts, and be willing to change how I feel about certain things, including myself.

Marci Warhaft:
The version of me I am today is different than it was six months ago. I mean, that's not an exaggerate. And it'll probably be different six months from now. And I love. That's one thing I really love about myself, is that I do give myself the ability to try things and to see who I am and go, this is who I am. And then maybe a year from now go, you know what? No, that didn't really fit. Maybe this is who I am, and I don't want to ever stop that. I think the problem, and it's so crazy because I'm asked all the time if I think that it's getting better.

Marci Warhaft:
The whole issue of body image and eating disorders now. And, you know, I'd love to say that it's, it's, it's better and it's. But it's tough. We have different problems now than we did then, I think, for some reason. And it probably goes back to what you said earlier.

Marci Warhaft:
What I say all the time is that, especially for younger people. And I will say, though, that there's a lot of studies coming up that women in their 40s and 50s are struggling now, either from issues they had when they were younger that they never really dealt with, or because a lot of women now, let's say you're coming out of divorce and now you're single again, and there's a whole new pressure. And also, you've been everything to everyone in your family your whole life. For a lot of women, not all women, but for a lot of women, it's been about taking care of their partner by taking care of their children. And now they've got time and it's like, okay, well, who am I? Now I'm going out in the world and have to show who I am.

Marci Warhaft:
So there's some pressure there that a lot of women are dealing with body image and even eating disorders into their 40s, 50s, and later. But I think the problem is, it's that when we, when we're struggling with situations, I even know for myself if I, to this day, if I feel like, oh, wait a minute, why am I suddenly feeling uncomfortable in my skin? What's in my life? And if things are stressful out there, I'll immediately look inwards because it is that feeling of control, like you said.I mean, for me, it started with the death of my brother. So that's when my eating disorder started. And it was this feeling of the world seemed safe when I was 17 until my brother got sick. So if the world seemed terrifying and I can't, I realized for the first time in my life, wait, I have no control over things. Immediately I'm like, what can I control? What can I. Well, I can't. There's really not much I can control. Oh, my body. And that's what you said at the beginning. All I could... All we have really, to control a hundred percent, not even 100%. But is what I eat, what I don't eat, how much I exercise, how much I move how much I don't. And that is us. So when we're feeling like we can't control other things, we'll go to our bodies.

Marci Warhaft:
And with children, like I said, like they really have, they don't get to decide half the time when they go to bed, when they go out, who they go out with. But there's so little that feels like it's in their control. So it makes sense that they're going to turn inward to their bodies. And I think, you know, we talk a lot about social media and it is a killer.

Marci Warhaft:
I mean it's, it, it' tough one. I mean you can't, you can't look up anything on the internet without it coming to how the ads, the, everything is about image, image, image, image from the youngest ages. And it's, it's hard. But the other thing that I say is that I also have to, have to say that if you want, you can find positive messages. It's harder. You may have to look for it. Whereas, you know, all you can see photoshopped in images and whatever, of (not in Photoshop anymore) but just, just these fake images of, of people with them. Just look at your phone, you'll see a bunch of them, which really knocks self esteem from a lot of kids.

Marci Warhaft:
But you can search up different... There's a lot of... When I first started in 2007, there was nothing. Facebook was just starting. There was nowhere to find some sort of positive input and feedback and just messages about how we're okay and not to focus on the outside. You go back to when we were growing up and there was none of this. Yes, it's great that we didn't have this social media pressure, but there was nothing. I just remember the diets that the, the adults in my life were on.

Marci Warhaft:
I remember my sister's Cosmopolitan magazine, you know, and, and, and there was a thing at the front where it would tell you the model on the cover would give you her, her age, her weight, her height. And that became my focus. I looked to it. That's the height I'm supposed to be. That's the weight I'm supposed to be. But that's all we had. You know, we didn't have anything positive. So we had our own struggles.

Marci Warhaft:
So it's a tough thing. It's always going to be. So I think what I tell parents do is you can't, you can't get rid of the negative messages. We can't unless your kid is never going to be on social media, they're never going to watch tv, they're never going to go out with friends. You can't. So what? All you can do is give your kids the strength and the self esteem and the tools they need to be able to deflect the negative messages when they come in. Our message... the outside messages will be loud. Our messages have to be louder.

Jennifer Norman:
Exactly. Kids don't want to listen to their parents though. So how, yeah, I mean, our parents are going to always be such important influencers in our lives and a lot of it perhaps is through modeling. It's like how, how is my mom reacting? Sometimes when we're least expecting it, people the kids are, are seeing how we're reacting, how we're fussing with our clothes. What we're seeing is, you know, is it self deprecating or is it confident? And sometimes that's the best way to actually teach them rather than trying to get all preachy and say, well, don't watch that social media. It's not gonna be blah, blah, blah, you know, what are some of the things that you say to them to help?

Marci Warhaft:
Well, I'll tell you this, what you said is true. Nobody wants to sit down with their parents and have their parents lecture them on stuff like that or anything. So what I find is a few things. What I used to do with my kids when they were younger. I have two boys, but what I used to do was whenever I would see something come up, when we used to watch TV together and I would see a commercial that I didn't, I didn't think had a good message about diet or something like that or, or if we were out and you hear a conversation even, it's in those moments that I would not lecture, but I'd say, well, that's, that's silly. That's not how. Here it is. You sort of, you just, I just kind of made it part of the normal.

Marci Warhaft:
When I hear, heard it, it was like when the ball's coming out, I just kind of swatted it away. The other thing is, it's what you said about kind of mirroring or I could tell my kids that they're perfect just the way they are, but if they hear me put myself down, then that is what's going to stick with them. So if I say, oh, you're beautiful just the way you are, and then they're like, hey, let's take a picture, and I go, oh, I can't take a picture, I don't like the way I look. That's what's going to stick with them. And so. So what I find is, this is the only time it's okay. Well, might not be. It's okay to lie to your kids is I say, even if you don't feel it, I think it is so important that we show them the way that we love ourselves, which gives them permission to love themselves.

Marci Warhaft:
And the funny thing is, when we are kinder to ourselves, even if it is to show our kids that we're being kinder, it goes into our psyches, too. So we tend to start believing ourselves. And what I mean by that is, is, you know, instead of saying, ugh, my arms are so flabby, or I don't like my stomach, it's like, let your kids especially look, I'm talking when they're little. So that's. Right away they're getting these positive messages without knowing that they're getting positive messages is to just say things like, you know what? I love my belly because this is where you were. Or I love my belly because that's where you put your head when we're watching tv. Or I love my arms because I can hug you, or I love my leg because I get to dance. I run to the park with you.

Marci Warhaft:
It's that stuff we're not talking about, oh, I love how I look in this, or I love how strong or how my muscles are. It's not that it's telling your kids to love parts of their body because of what they can do, not how they look. And if they hear us say that, that has so much more power than we even realize. But the other thing that I think is really important because you said it also with kids that we really do, it gets to a point. At first, you want your parents. Parents to watch everything you do and look at me and look what I'm doing and you. And then you get to a point where you don't care and it's just all about your friends. And that that's great in some ways and also not great in.

Marci Warhaft:
In other ways. And I think what's really, really important and what I. What I tell parents, what I've been telling parents forever, is figure out what it is that your kids like to do that make them feel good about themselves. So whether it's a kid who loves sports or a kid who loves dance, or a kid who loves music, or a kid who loves science, or a kid who loves books, or whatever it is that makes your kids light up that makes you. Even if it's, listen, you could be a hockey parent and your kid loves art, and guess what? Your kid's going to be doing art, you know, because that's what makes them happy. If you can find what makes them feel good about who they are, about what they can do, about their capabilities, that has so much power. Because then you were taking the pressure off of how they look and what other people. And I think that what's great, too, is if you can involve.

Marci Warhaft:
Sometimes kids don't have a great friendship group. Sometimes people at school aren't great. I went through that. A lot of people go through that. And I think, you know, I saw with my own kids who played sports that they had these really amazing coaches. You know, my son, when he started martial arts taekwondo at like 5, he's 26 now, and he's still close with one of his coaches. I mean, there's a lot there. And for me, it was great because they knew.

Marci Warhaft:
Listen, they knew my love for them was unconditional. So they could mess up, they could do things, and they knew maybe I'd get mad, but I'm not going anywhere. But when they had this other person in their life and they didn't want this person to lose respect for them, it kept them even more making the right decisions. Because what's this person gonna think? Cause this person, you know, if I lose my coach's respect, he's not gonna. That's it. Like, he might drop me or he might. So I think when you. When you can again get your kids into things that they love and you have another support group group, not just you, someone else, you know, that that gives your kids, helps encourage your kids and support your kids.

Marci Warhaft:
That's also really powerful. And. And the other thing, too is if, let's say, you know, your kid doesn't love school or has. Or their friend group isn't great, or even if they are, then maybe they're a little different. You know, maybe your kid is into Latino music when all their friends are into soccer. And that's great. They can be friends. Obviously they'll have friends.

Marci Warhaft:
But if they find this other group of people who are into the same things that they are, that's so amazing, too. So it's just. It's encouraging the things that make our kids who they are. And again, they could change one, one year some kid, you know, could like the tuba, and then they want to, I don't know, play baseball, and that's okay, too. But I think it's. It's really about teaching that, teaching our kids that it's not about the outside things that we can't, you know, kid, it doesn't matter if you're how like you said with when you used to look up to Christy Turlington. I mean we can't. I can't make myself be 5 foot 11.

Marci Warhaft:
It even if I think that would be cool, I can't. And it's such a waste of my life to cry over that. I can't make myself have a body type that I don't have. But if I really enjoy doing something, then I have control over how much I want to work and study and be the best at that. And nobody can take that away from me. So those are things it's. Show your kids that it's okay to love themselves so they know that it's okay and encourage them to find things about themselves that have absolutely nothing to do with how they look or outside pressures. Because we need, that's, that's the thing is that we need to stop looking for at other people to validate who we are and how we look and build that self esteem from the get go.

Marci Warhaft:
Like it's never, it's. You're never too young to learn self esteem. You're just not. Because the world is going to be, the world is going to throw stuff at us. I mean, I'll tell you when I wrote the Body Image Survival Guide for Parents, the toughest chapter was one about parents. Because what I found, I mean I was, I had a brutally disorder for most of my life and my mother put no pressure on me at all with that. So I imagine that the moms that the moms that had pressure from their moms, who had pressure from their moms who now are just terrible. I mean I've met moms who were...They felt the worst thing in the world would be if their child was overweight.

Marci Warhaft:
And I mean, and the fear that they carried and that they pushed onto their kids is just awful. And, and then even if you come from a home where there isn't any of that, I mean I remember hearing stories about people who said that they were at a friend's place and the friend's parent made a comment about their weight. I mean it's, it's so everywhere that you're never too young. I mean I remember somebody saying I started my workshops for grade four and, and I remember somebody saying well that's really too young. Cause I don't want to get. What if they're not thinking about that, then it's going to. And I said, you don't think they're, they're thinking about it.

Marci Warhaft:
And the thing that's so crazy is I remember. So I started working with. It was called fit versus Fiction. Just talking about what does it really mean to be fit. Aesthetics versus the mechanics of our body, physical appearance versus physical fitness. Because there's two different things. And then I was asked to speak to first graders because they were already struggling, you know, and there was a story about, There were two different stories. One was in LA and one was in Canada and about little kids who wouldn't wear their, their coats or wouldn't wear because they felt it made them look fat. And we're talking kindergarten.

Marci Warhaft:
So, you know, or I was asked to speak to eighth graders because it was lunchtime and vice principal found a group of girls purging at lunchtime. And so it's not too young to ever talk about, I mean, I wouldn't talk about eating disorders, specifically with kindergartners, but self esteem, self worth taking care of ourselves, health and not health. I only started my program because my kids were learning that health had to do with weight. And weight is such a tiny part of it. It's a small part of such a big, big subject. So I think it's never too young to teach your kid about self esteem and to show them. But again, yeah, sitting down and lecturing them about it isn't going to work. But you, and the hard part for, especially for moms, you know, is put yourself in all the pictures, put yourself in the picture, put on the bathing suit.

Marci Warhaft:
You know, they don't, they're not thinking, oh, mom looks, mom's stomach is, you know, like she's in the pool with me. You know, like that's really what it is. Like they just want your time. They're not judging you.

Jennifer Norman:
You know, kids will often, you know, not have the kind of filters that, that adults do. But oftentimes adults don't realize to your point, about like, the things that they're saying or their body language about how comfortable that they are with their own bodies. And the kids will pick up on that. And I was thinking about how in, you know, elementary school, what have you, kids will tease other kids. And I'm thinking to myself, they've learned that from someplace. I, I, they might have learned it from another child or they might have learned it at home or they've learned it, they've learned to that judging somebody for whether, you know, for the way that they look or the way that they are, whatever it might be, racial, what have you. Like, they've learned that somewhere. And so a lot of times we just don't realize the impact that we're having on other people.

Jennifer Norman:
So it does require some self awareness, some practice, some, you know, really just like, trying to make sure that we are giving ourselves the love and the care that we need so that it becomes natural for us to project kindness and love and compassion to others. And then others pick up on that energy.

Marci Warhaft:
Well, the other part of it is what you said. We don't realize the impact... I know that there's still people who, who diminish the power of self worth, self esteem, body image. People still think it's not a big deal. I remember when I started my workshops, I had a mother go, ugh, everybody worries about their body.

Marci Warhaft:
Everyone's stressed about it. It's not such a big deal. No, that is a big deal. And the fact that everybody does and it's become just accepted for you. You know, if you hear, if you walk by a group of women, I'm going to say women. But if you walk by and you hear them go, I love myself today, you'd be like, oh, good for her. But if you hear them, if you hear a group of women going, I feel fat today. You're not going to go, what? You're going to be like, yeah, it's such a... It's white noise because we're so used to putting ourselves down.

Marci Warhaft:
And that's not okay. Just because everyone does it doesn't mean that it's okay. And so, I mean, I had a mother once come over to me years ago. I was at the gym, and she knew what I did, and she said, you know, my daughter's a little overweight. I wouldn't mind her catching a little bit of an eating disorder.

Marci Warhaft:
And I'm like, don't even. It's such a crazy thing that people don't realize the impact. I mean, think of if you don't like yourself, if you are not comfortable in your skin, you are trying to build a home on quicksand. I mean, there's no foundation there for the rest of your life. And, and it's funny when you talk about too, when people talk in school, I remember a mother calling me because her daughter, who had no weight issue, they're, oh, my gosh, it was elementary school, so maybe grade four, first of all, there was a game that they would play where they would measure. They'd sit by each other and measure the thickness of their thighs and make fun of who was bigger, which is so bizarre. Or there was the size one club where all the girls would get together and if your clothes were bigger than a size one, you weren't allowed in the club.

Marci Warhaft:
And it's where this has come again. This has to be stopped. You know, for any parent to go, ah, they're just being kids. Kids. No, if you want healthy kids, then you're going to stop that. But I remember a mom saying to me, end up video chatting with a daughter. And she said, so, you know, people at school were saying that she was fat.

Marci Warhaft:
So I said, no, of course not. You're not fat. And I said, here's the problem. When, when that happens to overreact, as if being called fat is the worst thing in the world. That's part of the problem. There are way worse things in life than being fat. Like even that's the thing.

Marci Warhaft:
I mean, first of all, we're not fat. We have fat, we have skin, we have hair. That's not our entire personality. But I think one thing, what I said was, okay, if your child comes home and is devastated because somebody said that instead of reacting as, oh my God, no, you're not.

Marci Warhaft:
As if, like, that would be the worst. Because then they create this fear over. Okay, okay, I'm not. But what if I eat too much? Then it's this..

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, what do you say when the kid comes home.

Marci Warhaft:
I mean, especially if your child, isn't, you know, it has. Is that this child was really thin. And it's kind of like to just look at it and go as if...my thing was, react as if they said you're a table. It's like, what? That's so odd. What a weird thing to say. Like, don't even give it any power. Like, don't give it any power.

Marci Warhaft:
It's kind of like, she's silly, whatever. What? And move on. Like, it's not a thing. Like what? Like, don't, don't give it power. But here's the thing also, I'm also not saying that if your child has a weight issue, if your child is sedentary, if your child isn't able to play or have the energy I'm not saying that you should say, no, you're great the way you are. But I had a mother come to me because her child was quite young, hated exercise, and she was worried about her health because she was quite steadied. So what we did was I got together with them every week because of my fitness background, and we went to the park and we played.

Marci Warhaft:
Now, what we played, I set up... I used to do for my kids obstacle courses that involve, like, different exercises and follow the leader. It was all exercise. She just had no idea. Because it was fun. It was games and the whole thing. Yeah, it was just so she would, like, the mother would say...

Marci Warhaft:
She'd say, okay, when are we seeing Marci? When are we playing with Marci next? And it was also showing her there was no talk of, we're gonna get you into shape. It was like, oh, you know, you've been feeling tired and you want... You can't play with your friends as much. It's like, well, we're gonna give you... It was energy.

Marci Warhaft:
It was about, this is a positive thing. There was no talk of weight. None of that. It had no calories, nothing. It was just moving your body. It was introducing a love of movement and how great she felt afterwards.

Marci Warhaft:
So again, it's not me saying, oh, yeah, just tell your kids that they're great. No, if there is an issue, deal with it, but don't deal with it in a way that's going to create more problems. Don't tell your kid, you know what, you are overweight. So we're going to put you on a diet. Because now you just said you set your child up for a nightmare of a life with body images. But if it's like, you know what?

Marci Warhaft:
I don't like how low energy I've been feeling. Why don't we make some changes? Why don't we, after dinner, we go for a walk? Why don't we try different foods at the grocery? You can make all these changes in your house in a very positive way that, again, have no talk of diet, have no talk of weight, but kind of like, you know what? I want to do something different. I want to feel better. So, yeah, after dinner, instead of watching tv, right away, let's go for a walk or let's put music on. And for like a half an hour of a day, we'll just have a dance party.

Marci Warhaft:
It's like, just ways of bringing positive things into your life without any emphasis being on the aesthetics of it or weight, any of that. It's just about you want to feel good. And the truth is also a lot of us, we will pick a size or we'll pick a weight or we'll pick a number that we think we should be. And then we torture ourselves to get into it when really that might not be where we're supposed to be. Or maybe it was where we're supposed to be 10 years ago or 15 years ago. What we need to do is find the things, eat in ways that make us feel good, which includes eating the foods that we... I don't believe that everything you eat has to have nutritional whatever. Sometimes it's just because it tastes good, you know, it's just balance.

Marci Warhaft:
Yeah. And doing the things that we like to do doesn't mean you have to go to the gym seven days a week. It could be that you like pickleball three times a week or whatever, but find the things that make you feel good and then your body will get to where it needs to be. And it might be different than you're expecting. It might not be the size or the weight that you think, but you're going, you know what? I feel really good and I get to enjoy the things and have a social life and be with my kids and whatever. And that's the number.

Marci Warhaft:
Let your body tell you where you're supposed to go when you're treating it properly. Don't work against your body. Everything our society since we were young has been teaching us with diets, diet aids, is how to work against our bodies, not to trust our bodies. People will go, I don't understand. Like, I had what I was supposed to eat, but I'm still hungry. What's wrong with me? You know how you stop being hungry sometimes is you eat. Like sometimes you just did not eat enough, you know, but we, we're so used to punishing and we're used to being tortured into, into stuff.

Marci Warhaft:
And, you know, we'll do the diets and we'll do the exercise regime if we don't like it. No, work with your body, our bodies. Oh, my God. I spent my whole life hating my body. And I will never do that again, ever, ever, ever. I mean, I'm so grateful. I don't always love how it looks, but I will never put down my body again.

Marci Warhaft:
Because we all, I think we really take it for granted. We really take it for granted. Again, as somebody who came very close to dying when I was 29 with my illness. You know, we take for granted how it keeps us alive every single day. Like it does a lot to keep us alive. We're breathing every...

Jennifer Norman:
Exactly.

Marci Warhaft:
And then we have the audacity to go like, ah, yeah, but I was not, I was lighter. I wasn't as. I'm feeling bloated and I wasn't, and I can't fit into my... Like really? Yeah, we need to stop that.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, yeah, we focus on the superficial and not the important things. I do want to make a comment too, because there are very strong cultural ties to the idea of like somebody looking like they're overweight compared to what the expectation is, particularly in Asian and Southeast Asian countries. It's pretty brutal. I mean, I can say this being in the United States right now, but you know, it's, it's, it gets to the point where, I mean, if, if somebody sees you and they think that you've put on an extra pound, "You're fat! You got so fat!" And you know, it's just like that. But that's an act of love to them to say like you're, you know what, there's something wrong, you know, you're fat.

Jennifer Norman:
This one woman who I know who has... I interviewed her for this podcast, she had a chronic disorder where she was hospitalized with this terrible traumatic psoriasis that bled all over her body. And for years she was dealing with this terrible psoriasis. And then when she finally was able to find healing in that, she gained weight. And it was, to her family, worse that she had gotten larger than when she was stick figure rail and had psoriasis over her body. Like they were practically ready to disown her because she had gained weight. And so yeah, there's really very strong cultural ties to body size, body image and feeling okay and comfortable with yourself and not trying to live up to others expectations.

Jennifer Norman:
And it can cause a lot of risk rifts in relationships unto itself.

Marci Warhaft:
Oh, it is. And you know, though I will say this, I think it's really important. This is one thing I would tell parents also is that you gotta stop worrying about offending other people in your family if they are saying things and giving negative messages to your kids. And I think it's important also to stand up for your kids in front of your kids. So you know, I'll have people who say to me, you know, I'm great, I love my child and I support my child and I. But my mother or my father has an issue with weight and they're just ridiculous about it. So I'll go there with my daughter and then my, my dad will say something about pointing to her stomach or say and I, and I don't want to and then I'm in their house. I don't want.

Marci Warhaft:
Well no be rude, you know and it's not rude. Stand up for John. Say hey, we don't talk like that or hey, and then you can even take it to the we won't, we won't come here. I mean that you can say after privately but I will not come back here. If you're going to subject my child to something that is going to negatively impact their self esteem and their self forth for it is your job to protect your child. Is your job to protect them physically and emotionally. And there are so many situations where people are with people family or friends or friends of friends and they don't want to and they've said something.

Jennifer Norman:
And they let it slide.

Marci Warhaft:
You need to stand up for your child. Because they are dealing with... I mean there was a statistic I used to quote all the time and try to remember it now but by the time a kid is 17, girl 17, she's seen over 250,000 messages from the media telling her that she's not good enough. That's by the time she's 17. So now think about her parents, her grandparents, her great. So it's ingrained in so many people's psyches that they have no choice, nobody have a choice. But it's almost they feel compelled to comment on somebody you know from different generations but it doesn't excuse it. So it's okay to say I get that you have your issues but you're not putting those issues on my child. Keep your body image issues off my child.

Marci Warhaft:
And if it means we don't come around here for a while or it means you don't come to my house for a while, then that's the way it's going to be because I'm not responsible for your for your feelings but I'm responsible for my child's health.

Jennifer Norman:
Period. Boundaries and empowerment. Yes, super, super important. Now you've written The Good Stripper: A Soccer Mom's Memoir of Lies, Loss and Lap Dances. And I think that that was pretty pivotal for you because it was this moment of release. And so I, I think it would be really great to share with our listeners the power of telling your story of helping to release shame when it comes to your body, when it comes to anything. Any acts that have been in your past. And also the concept of, you know, the idea of shame.

Jennifer Norman:
Sometimes people get shamed because, you know, of what the expectations are, or if people are just, you know, bigoted or, you know, things that are. It could be any kind of ism that. That happens. And there is something about taking a stance for yourself. So I'm really curious about your experience of writing the book, and then any important notes that you might want to share.

Marci Warhaft:
You know, I'll tell you something that's been such an interesting. Writing the book is one thing. When I found out it was gonna be published, it's a whole other thing. And when people tell me it just happened, or somebody says, oh, I ordered your book, and I'm like, okay, you're gonna learn a lot about me. And every time I felt like, ooh, ah. Um, but. But here's the thing. So, yeah, so with my story, I mean, it's called The Good Stripper.

Marci Warhaft:
I will say that I only... I did strip, but only for a few months of my life. But that was part of a double life that I did live for years where I did allow myself to be sexualized. And I think I did a lot of the sexualizing myself. And again, it was this quest for self worth.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Marci Warhaft:
But I'll tell you that the biggest lesson that I learned was I kept these secrets. I was so afraid of losing respect from people I loved.

Marci Warhaft:
And then I did get to a point, like I said earlier, where it was this feeling of, it was weighing me down. I hated having these secrets, and I was giving so many people power over me, but they didn't even know it. And here's the big thing. The big thing is, yes, there's people who will shame us or who will try to judge us and all of that, but honestly, most of that comes from ourself. Most of that came from me. It was a fear that I was projecting my own fear.

Marci Warhaft:
So I was. I was assuming the things that I felt the most guilty about or shamed about. I was assuming that other people were gonna feel that way. That was an assumption that I was making. You know what? When I decided, okay, I'm gonna deal with it, I'm gonna deal with whatever fallout happens, I'm gonna release it. None of it happened. Like, are there people who looked down on me? Maybe, but most people supported me. Most people came to me with stuff that they had or most people came to me because they felt like, oh, my God, there's...you can tell the truth and the whole world doesn't end, which was the biggest thing.

Marci Warhaft:
But I realized I'm gonna tell the truth and I'm getting ready for the world to. It opened. And so what I learned was that it wasn't the secrets themselves that were keeping me from being happy. See, the secrets were about stuff that happened. Stuff happened, stuff happened to me. And then there was the stuff that happened to me, and then there was the stuff that I did to deal with the stuff, the unhealthy coping mechanisms that I created.

Marci Warhaft:
So there were two things there. But I went through that. That's the hard part. The hard part is going through that. I did that. I survived that. So now the fear was over.

Marci Warhaft:
What are people going to say about it? Well, why does it matter what people say about it or do? Who cares? Who are these people? I got through that. So that was what the fear, the fear wasn't over what, what I did. It was, what are people going to think? And that's crazy to me now, looking back. Why do I care what, what people think about how I survived? I survived and I grew and I evolved. And when I make the same mistakes now. No, but that's what life is. I wouldn't. I've learned from that.

Marci Warhaft:
And so telling the truth was so unbelievably liberating because I gave myself the chance to not put it behind me. There are things I can't put behind me completely, but I move through it. You know, I move. I move through it and, and nobody can come at me with anything. You can't shame someone who doesn't feel shame. And so it now I feel like I can. I can say anything I can do.

Marci Warhaft:
I could try stuff. I'm not afraid, afraid of failing. I failed before. I know how to pick myself up. I'm not afraid of making mistakes. I've made mistakes and I survived that and learned from them. So I don't. I'm not carrying this weight behind me anymore.

Marci Warhaft:
I let that go. And that's been unbelievably liberating. And there's. There's some stuff. I look back and go, I can't believe I said that. It's a little embarrassing, but I embarrass myself all the time. Who cares? Who cares? You know, and honestly, people. People are drawn to surviving.

Marci Warhaft:
You know, sure, there are people who like to kick you when you're down, but those people don't mean anything anyway. So people, all those people who I thought were gonna judge me on my mistakes instead supported me over my survival. They cheered me on through that. And that's what I think we miss, we assume, especially when we hold so much shame over it. The things that I thought, oh my God, people are gonna hate me for this. They didn't, they didn't. And they were seeing all the time I see all the times I fell down. They see all the times I take myself back out.

Marci Warhaft:
So that's the message is don't be afraid of sharing your truth. It's the like it's there. I can't go back and change things. I can't change it. I can try to hide it, but why? I can't change it. I can't hide it. It happened. So now it's how do I move through the rest of my life? And that is how I see it.

Marci Warhaft:
You know, it's how I decide to carry it with me. And it's way lighter now that I don't have any shame with it.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh gosh. And so you are perfectly poised to help those that have gone through it. Whether it be from a body image perspective, dealing with trauma, self esteem, self confidence, how to self express having a relationship with others that is really grounded in you knowing yourself and loving yourself first and then getting over any kind of shame that might be in your background, anything that you might have done that you feel like you're keeping these secrets and worried about what other people will think of you or getting into a new relationship and thinking, oh gosh, I could never tell him or her that because, because what will they think of me? They will never, they'll run away or. But when you find that when you're able to be open and honest and vulnerable and really just, you know, being truthful with not just the other person, but with yourself, and that's really where it starts, is like you know the truth with yourself of why you do the things you do, who you're doing them for and who you're serving when you're doing those things.Marci Warhaft is here to help help you on your journey. If you are somebody who looks to seek guidance or help in on your self esteem journey, then certainly look Marci up because she could be a valuable resource for you. So at this point, Marci, I want you to share how people can get in touch with you.

Marci Warhaft:
Okay, well you can reach me actually just through email at marciarhaft@rogers.com. You'll have that or through social media, through Instagram or Facebook. Really but those are the best ways to just look up Marci Warhaft. I'm really easy to find. Really easy to find. And I'll just say this last thing. It's that my book is dedicated to anyone who may be struggling to forgive themselves for the mistakes they made when they were just trying to survive. And that's the best thing, that's the best thing we could do is to forgive ourselves and move forward.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. May we all feel freer. Marci, thank you so much for all the work that you do to help people, people of all ages, find positivity, to find love and light and to cherish the love and the bodies that they've been given. Thank you so much for being my guest today on The Human Beauty Movement Podcast.

Marci Warhaft:
Well, thank you for having this platform to share the messages that I think we really need to hear. So thank you for having me.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you for listening to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Be sure to follow, follow rate and review us wherever you stream podcasts The Human Beauty Movement is a community based platform that cultivates the beauty of humankind. Check out our workshops, find us on social media, and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more at thehumanbeautymovement.com. Thank you so much for being a beautiful human.