Drag As Art with Lala Luzious

Jennifer Norman:
Hello beautiful humans. Welcome to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast, your source for hope, healing, happiness and humanity. My name is Jennifer Norman. I'm the founder of The Human Beauty Movement and your host. This podcast is here to guide you on your journey of self love, empowerment, soul alignment and joy. With each episode, I invite beautiful humans from all corners of the globe to join me for open conversations about their life lessons and the important work that they are doing to help heal humankind. Take a moment now to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode. I'm so glad you're here, joining me for today's show.

Jennifer Norman:
In the famous words of Dolly Parton, it's a good thing I was born a girl, otherwise I'd be a drag queen. Drag is not just all about glitz, glam and fabulous performances. It's. It is a bold expression of identity, resilience, and artistry. It challenges societal norms, breaks down barriers, and fosters a sense of belonging and empowerment within the LGBTQ community and beyond. Now, for BIPOC individuals in drag, this art form becomes an even more powerful statement, highlighting the intersection of race, gender, and identity and contributing to a richer, more inclusive cultural experience. Experience. My guest today is a beautiful example of this incredible world.

Jennifer Norman:
Lala Luzious is a prominent drag performer, podcast host, journalist, and makeup artist. Lala has won several drag competitions, made an appearance on you Bet Your Life with Jay Leno, and opened for the fabulous Sasha Colby from RuPaul's Drag Race. In addition to her captivating performances, she released a book of poetry called A Loitering Heart and launched her own makeup line, Snax by Lala. This episode is your opportunity to get genuinely curious. There's true magic and learning about others who are vastly different from you. By doing so, you gain unique insights into the connectedness of all human beings. And you may also gain the courage to showcase your own true colors. So, without further ado, please join me in welcoming the sensational Lala Luzious to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast.

Jennifer Norman:
Welcome, Lala.

Lala Luzious:
Hi, humans, and thank you so much for having me. Jennifer, I do wanna say everybody can do drag, so you can do it.

Lala Luzious:
I believe in you. Maybe by the end of this, we'll get you a drag name and everything.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, thank you so much. Ooh, I can't wait. I love a new identity. That sounds like a lot of fun, and that is really what the name of the game is all about. Drag is fun, is it not? I mean, there's nothing that's not fun about drag.

Lala Luzious:
It's a blast. I think that it's the only thing in my life that I have found that grows with me. So when I was 18, I wanted different things out of being a drag queen than I do now that I'm in my 30s. And I love that it can change and grow with me. I think that's always how I have the most fun.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, so, well, you got to say more then, because how was it when you were 18 years old? And that's starting fairly young. Well, nowadays perhaps not, but that is starting pretty young. And I can imagine there was like a little bit of an evolution of how to perform and then what is it like now that you're 30?

Lala Luzious:
Yeah, before I get into that, I actually just recently started mentoring a 14 year old drag performer. And I honestly, yeah, it has really taught me about how much times have changed. Parents are completely supportive, front row at every show, bring in friends, and they are the only kid in their class doing drag. And I work at a few venues that allow me to have them come and perform. I mean, honestly, they're a star. They are definitely gonna win the next RuPaul's Drag Race when they. When they turn all of it up, they're going to.

Jennifer Norman:
In my first season, I actually did interview Cherry West, who's from the UK and at the time was a 15 year old drag artist and aspires to be on RuPaul's Drag Race UK.

Lala Luzious:
Yes. Yes. Oh, my goodness. I love seeing kids being able to express themselves in ways that were different for me. When I started, I actually didn't want to do drag. I did not. I fought it and fought it and fought it. I went to an all male college and in order to have a drag show in the school to pay for it, it was a fundraiser to raise money for AIDS awareness and we were wanting to hire drag queens.

Lala Luzious:
And they said, well, this has to be an educational experience, so a student has to do it. This is a very different time. RuPaul's Drag Race hadn't even been on TV. And I truly think that it was the administration's way of trying to get us not to do it. And so in the Gay Straight Alliance in my group, there was only two actually openly gay...the rest were just very supportive allies, which was great for the time. I didn't realize how profound that was until later in life to have so many because it was a big group. But we were the only openly gay men on campus and neither of us wanted to do it.

Lala Luzious:
And we argued and argued. Because, I mean, allies are supportive, right? They're so supportive. But they were just like, we're not doing drag. And I was like, okay, I get that. Right? So it has to be one of us. And we argued and finally came down to the day. It's like, if we don't get something in, we're not going to have this show. And I said, I'll do it.

Lala Luzious:
And honestly, I went out in a bed sheet that I creatively safety pinned. I call it my "Givensheets". And someone had a wig on an all male campus. I don't know why someone did.

Jennifer Norman:
Probably a Halloween costume!

Lala Luzious:
Yeah, no! It was a nice wig. It was a really nice wig!

Jennifer Norman:
Oh! All right!

Lala Luzious:
I would if I knew what it was. I wish I had lost it at some point, but if I had known what it was, I would buy it again. Like, it was that nice.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow. Human hair.

Lala Luzious:
Yeah, it was good hair. And then I had no heels. Cause I have big feet and I just didn't know where to find big heels at the time. And just someone I had worked with because I had a serving job at night that was like, I'll come do your makeup. And I looked awful, but I had the best time. And I truly have not stopped since.

Jennifer Norman:
Like, what did you even do? Like, what was your first performance?

Lala Luzious:
Beyonce's A Woman Like Me. And it set the tone for my whole career. Yes. Pink Panther, not one of her popular songs, but I heard it and I said, oh, this is me. This is it. This is what it's supposed to be. So that was my first time. And I could not have imagined that I would be even sitting here recording podcasts like this, talking about drag at the time.

Lala Luzious:
Like, I thought it was just going to be a one time thing and ended up being so much more.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow. Wow. So ultimately it turned into a job for you earlier than you had even imagined. So from what I understand, right, that...

Lala Luzious:
I was doing it for free, and I would only do it once a year in college to raise money for charity, which is a very common thing to do in the drag community. Drag queens actually raise a lot of money and give back to their community more so than people realize. I think that's one of the misconceptions about the drag community is...not misconceptions, but we're just not given enough credit for how much money we raise and give back to our own community for sure. So I did do that after college. I wanted to be a writer, as you've seen. I've gotten back to that. But there was a time where I thought I was just not going to include drag.

Lala Luzious:
But rent was due. One time. Yes, rent was due. And at the time, my rent....this is gonna sound so insanely cheap...my rent was $500. And there was a drag competition where I could win $500. So I went and did it at this club not too far from where I was living in Indiana at the time, and I won. But they loved me so much that the club hired me to be a cast member before time, and that's how I started doing it, for professional money.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow, that is incredible. And to be able to make a living or at least make money out of it, I think that is pretty much saying how talented you were and how much of a natural you kind of were in terms of getting into that particular profession and really loving it and really having a great time. Clearly, you were having a good time in the energy with probably something that the audience could feel and really wanted to be part of. So, I mean. And that's why I say it's all about fun, and it uplifts people. Like, it brings sometimes a lot of comedy, sometimes a bit of debauchery. Yes, of course. And that's okay.

Jennifer Norman:
As human beings, sometimes we need that kind of escapism, Right, Exactly.

Lala Luzious:
I think that a lot of people on the outside, because it's such a transformation, call it escapism. For me, personally, I learn a lot about myself every time I do drag. I learn a lot about myself outside of drag. Drag gave me a lot of confidence, confidence that I didn't have before. It's also given me an opportunity to lead people. I'm actually, during the day, I'm a supervisor in a call center, and I had had no experience before I got my first supervising role in, like, leadership on my resume.

Lala Luzious:
But when I went into the interview, I told them, I said, I really would like this job. But I...You're gonna look at my resume and not see much. But I was like, this is what I do. And I explained to them, I was like, how everyone shows and how I work with people from all types of diverse backgrounds. I love drag queens, but they are like herding sassy cats. So I explained to them, I was like, I work with some difficult people. This is how I handle it. And I got the job. And then it led to the even better role that I had now.

Lala Luzious:
So drag has really, really helped me be so introspective and grow as a person, too.

Jennifer Norman:
And a lot of people wouldn't know that. I've heard a Lot of people say it's kind of like wearing a super suit. You get into it and you feel ultimately more confident. And I think a lot of like women, cis-women like myself is like, you roll out of bed and you just like look in the mirror, {ugh}. But you put on your makeup, you do your hair, you get into that outfit and you're like, yeah, I'm feeling myself. And you're revealing a bit more about yourself and you're carrying your best self forward into the world. I think when you're able to really showcase the inner you, that really necessarily doesn't come with just like your normal skin and maybe your body type or your body shape to be able to wardrobe it and to be able to provide decor and embellishment. I often will say to people, sometimes people will talk about like makeup as a mask. And I'm like, but maybe the mask is revealing.

Jennifer Norman:
Maybe you're more you when you wear that mask than if you weren't wearing that mask at all. Maybe it helps the real you to shine through. What do you think about that?

Lala Luzious:
I absolutely agree. I think that when we are everyday selves, we get caught up in a lot of limiting beliefs about what we can do. So we all have our own self concept about what it is. So when you create a drag persona or when you create the you that is getting dressed up to go out, whatever it is something that's not you, every day you get to create that. So I know that for me, when, when I was lacking confidence in my everyday life, I was like, my drag persona is going to be confident. And by practicing that confidence through performance, I was then able to know what it felt like and then I could do that in my everyday life. And so in those ways, I do think that it really says something about you. I did a really beautiful exercise once.

Lala Luzious:
I got asked to speak at a college. It was my first time doing something so big like that. And I asked one of the audience members, it was a girl, she came up on stage and said, what's your name? She said her name and I said, I want you to come up with the drag name. And I was like, what's your favorite candy and the street you grew up on? And we're gonna go with that as your drag name or whatever. I said something fun and I said, okay. So I want you to walk just as you normally walk. And she walks. And I said, okay, now I want you to walk as your drag character.

Lala Luzious:
And it was just a completely different stance, a stature. There was more attitude and stuff. And I have always thought, why can't people just do that with everything in life if you're not where you want to be? I don't want to say fake it, but imagine what it would feel like if you were there already and just get as close to that as you can. And drags a really big and loud outward projection of us doing that when we create our characters, but it's something really you can do every day.

Jennifer Norman:
I am never a big fan of the phrase 'fake it till you make it'. I prefer 'be it until you become it'. And that's exactly what you did with that and that woman. And that, I think, is a lot of what drag persona can be. It's like, this is what I'm being until the other me that might not be wearing drag can be become that. I think it's interesting that now we're seeing RuPaul as the more of, like, without the drag. And I think perhaps it's because there might have been a journey to really feeling confident and building that person and being able to bring that person forward into society more than in the past. Who knows?

Lala Luzious:
Yeah. I'm actually kind of at that point with my career where I'm incorporating more of my outside of drag persona into my brand. I have an acting career that is not always in drag and just different things that I've done. I like telling the story of that clothes are clothes or a look is a look, and you can have fun with that, but at the same time, it's all the same person. I've always liked telling that story, at least when it comes to myself. I know that for a lot of drag performers, the transformation is very like night and day. But for me, I act pretty much the same with hair and wig on or not. You know, still fun, still loud, still like to have a good time, and I like being more open with.

Lala Luzious:
And I really, really appreciate Ru for being an example of how to do that.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Now, for those who are just listening to this podcast, not everybody has the benefit of seeing your gorgeousness. I would love for you to describe, just for the accessibility of it all, describe your persona. Describe the way that you look to our audience who might be just listening right now.

Lala Luzious:
I have some fabulous Farrah Fawcett black hair on. I have my headphones creatively doing some headband action. I had to figure that out for this pod. I don't often do video podcasts, which I love. I love being fabulous in front of the camera, so that's not a problem. But I was like how am I going to do this? And then I have my best, best businesswoman attire on. It is a turquoise and leopard print little jumpsuit. I am sitting down, so you can't see the full jumpsuit, but it is absolutely fabulous.

Lala Luzious:
And it's one of my favorite things. I love to wear for interviews. And then I guess I don't need to explain my personality. It comes out in my voice and the way I talk. It's everything you would expect a drag queen would be, for sure.

Jennifer Norman:
Yes, yes. Now, Lala, your makeup is the chef's kiss.

Lala Luzious:
Thank you.

Jennifer Norman:
Yes, yes. And I know that that is. It's not an easy thing to learn how to do makeup on yourself, especially the lashes. I still have trouble doing false eyelashes. Gosh darn it. But I know, like, the drag community, really, the eyelashes are so important and the lips are so important. And now you've actually launched your own makeup line. So I would love to hear about your whole journey and evolution with makeup and learning the art of makeup artistry.

Lala Luzious:
I'm so glad you asked this question, because it's a part of my journey that I get to talk about a lot, but it actually was very much a struggle. So when I started, there was not a lot of options for people of color. I also was in rural Indiana, where there also were just not a lot of drag queens. And if there were, like, anywhere near me, they were definitely all white. So I found myself going to the drugstore and buying products and mixing them together and, like, making my skin tone and things like that so that I could start my drag career. Obviously, there's a whole bunch of issues as to why that was even a thing, and it had to happen to me. But I also really appreciate that time in my life because it really taught me how makeup works. And by the time I was able to work with queens that were of color, I had a better understanding of makeup.

Lala Luzious:
And it really took me farther and led me to wanting to do my own makeup line, which is very new. But I could talk about that in a second. But, yeah, that was a struggle. Now there's so many products that are available to make it a lot easier for not just queens. Anybody who wants to put on a little face, honey. Anybody wants to put on a face. There's so many more options now, but I don't know if I would have the knowledge that I have if that hadn't happened to me and I wasn't put in that position. But it is a testament to one thing.

Lala Luzious:
I was very determined to not let anything stop me. It was never, this won't work. It's how could I make this work? And I was. I mean, I would have of like paper and I would just mix foundations and like dot them on paper and then hold it up to my face and be like, does this work? And stuff like that. So it was a process. But then this year, I started my own line. Right now it's just lips, matte lips and lip glosses called Snax. Snax by Lala.

Lala Luzious:
Hardest thing I've ever done. People have asked, do I make it myself? I absolutely do not. I'm far too busy for that. So I work with a company that makes it for me. But I was pretty particular about what I wanted. I was like, I'm not selling makeup to the every day person. I was like, I want for people who like to put it on for the girls, for the stage, for the girls who like to go out at night. And so just getting a formula that really is vegan, but also pigmented and stays and really is that offers that bold payout that I like when I'm on stage wearing it now, actually, so.

Lala Luzious:
But I didn't want a whole bunch of crap in the product. So, yeah, it was a process getting that made, but we did it. And I just love it when I go places and promote it. I think even more so the drag and probably more convincing about my makeup because I was like, it's just so good. I'm so happy with it, all the colors, and I just love wearing it. And it's been one of the biggest, best projects I've done in my life to do, but also the hardest in some ways.

Jennifer Norman:
Congrats. It is not easy. I've worked in the traditional beauty industry for, gosh, probably about 25 years. And I've seen the evolution of the shade ranges being very, very Caucasian, very much in the fair to medium range, and very few, few selections for people of color. And the undertones were never quite right. And it was always a struggle. And from the perspective of the manufacturer, we were always beholden to what's going to sell at store level.

Jennifer Norman:
And so the stores would discontinue anything that wasn't necessarily performing. And so it would almost be like a chicken and an egg thing. Even if we tried to, it would get discontinued. And ultimately now I think that there's just been this beautiful reckoning, which is that it doesn't matter. It's important to have the representation, it's important to have the shade range, and it's important to look at the totality of the offering to make sure that it is as complete as it can be and that you're doing an honor and having respect for different cultures, different skin tones, different undertones, different ways of putting things on your face. And so it is lovely to see that. Of course, everybody looks to Fenty and says, yeah, yeah, that part of it has changed. But, yeah, the task of formulating, of branding, of packaging, all of that is...it's quite a lot.

Lala Luzious:
It's a lot.

Jennifer Norman:
So congrats.

Lala Luzious:
I love how you mentioned that it's a cycle, because I've always felt like it was hard for me to go buy makeup because it wasn't there. So I just was never looking for it. But if you want people to buy it, they need to know that it's there. Right. So I'm glad that somehow that cycle was broken.

Jennifer Norman:
Took a while.

Lala Luzious:
Yeah, yeah. But. And there's still a lot to go. Because I know you said undertones. I was like, I still think some of them still got some work to do with the undertones. But you know what? We are doing just fine for where we're at. I love it.

Jennifer Norman:
Good. Well, you look gorgeous and I love it. Thank you. Yeah, I mean. I mean, I love how you've done your eyes. There's like, what do you use as far as inspiration to get a look? Do you find just, like, some stuff on videos and all of that, or what's your process?

Lala Luzious:
I did watch a lot of YouTube tutorials as well. I've always said I probably have a makeup degree in the hours of YouTube tutorials I've watched. Today's look is featuring a smokey eye with a little bit of glitter over the smoke. But actually, fun fact, in the drag community, smokey eyes are considered lazy. So...

Jennifer Norman:
Really?

Lala Luzious:
Oh, yeah. If you are getting paid, it needs to be an open lid with the big lashes and stuff. I was working before this podcast, so y'all got the smokey eye today, and it looks good. But if I was going on stage...

Jennifer Norman:
We are none the wiser!

Lala Luzious:
But yeah, if you're going on. If you're going on stage and working professionally, you should be doing, like, an open eye. There's a lot of specifics when it comes to, like, the details of being professional. So you always have to have nails, jewelry, wigs. With the rise of RuPaul's Drag Race it has been a point of debate. I like them, but I, yeah, I was raised old school.

Lala Luzious:
Like, the drag queens that I watched coming up as a queer kid were all of the old school, where everything is very over the top but feminine. Now we're getting into more androgynous. Some of it I wouldn't even call representing a gender necessarily. I love it. I admire it so much. I see so much talented makeup and costuming and stuff that I just have not explored what that would look like for me yet. But I appreciate it and I think it's great. So I'm not saying that it's not, but standard for professional is you, if you're not wearing nails, you're not doing drag.

Lala Luzious:
You got to have your jewelry and usually a good wig on.

Jennifer Norman:
So amazing. So what would a...I won't say typical because there probably is no such thing...but you said that there are some standards and some do's and don'ts within drag. In terms of a performance, aside from the wardrobe, the jewels, the nails, the makeup and whatnot, what makes a good drag performance?

Lala Luzious:
The look is important. I was a very natural performer, but I found a time in my career where I wasn't getting anywhere. And someone just told me one day, they said, no one is taking you seriously because of the way you look. And I was just like, honestly, some people can't handle that. Like, really real advice. It like hurts their feelings. For me, that day changed my whole life. They're like, okay, they're like, like, you're amazing to watch.

Lala Luzious:
But when you're wearing store-bought stuff, which...you can buy stuff from a store. Another drag queen who's pretty famous in New York City, she told me, I was there just visiting and I met her at a club and she told me, she said, never wear what you bought. She said, buy it and then change it before you put it on stage. So she's like, make it your own. Yeah, change something about it so that it's your own unique piece. So what I tell my drag kids is that 50% of the work should be done before you hit the stage. So how are we looking? How's our makeup? How is the look and the ambiance that you're portraying? Then you need to perform.

Lala Luzious:
Knowing all your words has always been a stickler for me. I've never seen a good drive performance where the performer does not know their words. Some people might debate me on that. I've never seen it yet, so I'm going with that in terms of what I believe for sure. And then I also feel like it's really important that each performance has a story. Even if it's not a great story. It should have a beginning, middle and end it should just have creates that engagement with the audience. Because entertainment, in some way, is always storytelling.

Lala Luzious:
Right. We're getting people into...out of their heads and out of things that may be going wrong in their life for a minute and entertaining them. So it's always a story in that way. And I feel like drag performances should reflect that type of story too. So those are the things for me that make a good, drive performance.

Jennifer Norman:
All right. I would love to talk about the idea of being your true self, because I think that being a drag artist and performing is such a great model for somebody kind of coming into their own power. The idea and transformation and finding one's own voice and one's performance. But for the person who may not necessarily be a drag artist and somebody who's really struggling with understanding who they are, like, what does being authentic and true to yourself mean in the context of everyday life, in your opinion?

Lala Luzious:
Yeah, I think in terms of drag, we are a community that doesn't follow the rest of society's rules. We're not afraid to just make something happen just because. Who says it can't? I mean, I have just kind of a general rule. As long as I'm not hurting anybody or hurting myself, then I'll do whatever I wanna do on stage. And when I look at being your authentic self, there's so much that our upbringings put on us. I actually had a really interesting conversation with my friend who's also a black drag queen, and we. We were talking about education, and when we learned that black people were in slavery, basically, and I asked a question, I said, did it make you a better person because you knew that? And I said, I understand that it made you more aware. I understand that it's knowledge we need to have.

Lala Luzious:
But was there truly anything about it that made you better for knowing that that happened in our history? And they were like, no. It was like, right? And I was like, so we're walking around with all this generational trauma that, yes, it affects us, but it never happened to us. And in some ways isn't our story. It's our ancestor's story, but it's not our story today in so many different ways. And I think that that happens with queer people too. The world is so different. Like, you're having young queens on your podcast, and I'm working with young queens. And times have changed.

Lala Luzious:
But yet I think being a queer person, you still carry certain traumas that can affect your concept of what you think you can do. I always encourage people to be mindful of it because we don't want to forget our history and our past. Right. But don't let it limit you. If someone asked me if I'd be sitting here talking about drag and working with young queens and traveling and doing all these things when I was 18 and I first started it, I would have just laughed. I'd be like, no, the world will never be like that. And it's changed so much.

Lala Luzious:
So I always want people to have that eye on what could be. And I think that that's how you end up stepping into your authentic self, which you may not even know yet. If this is all that's happened and I think it's been 18 years I've been doing it. I can't wait for next 18. And I have no idea what that's going to look like. And that's okay. I'm excited. I'm going to keep focus, I'm going to keep working hard and I'm going to let it do that.

Lala Luzious:
But I know that I'll never get to amazing places if I keep on to limiting things in my head.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, I'm so glad that you bring this up because I have to say, and this has been something that has been rearing up a lot recently because I work in the space of DEI quite a lot and inclusivity and I have a real issue with a lot of the quote unquote anti racism teaching that's out there because a lot of it is dredging up a lot of history. And I want to be so respectful of that history, but it's living in that history and it's creating that conflict and that feeling of victimization and othering that was that past story. And we have come such a long way. And even though there might be epigenetic trauma, there is so much power in our present environment and in our present experience. And if somebody is embraced for who they are and knows that they can figure it out with the support and loving help of community members and feels that they're seen and heard, isn't that wonderful? Do we need to continue to say, oh, but there's racism. Oh, there's people that are against you. Can that person just ultimately learn to be okay with themselves as they are and really love themselves and how they want to project themselves without feeling that they have to have the woes of everybody else because they are a certain color or perhaps a certain sexuality or a certain gender, whatever the story could be. I would love for us to ultimately have that conversation of, we see everybody for where they're at now. We love you for where we're at now. We know we can't change the past, but we can make the future brighter and better. We can accept each other in the today and in the now, understand each other a little bit better. We may not all agree and we won't all agree, and that's okay too. But as long as we're not hurting anybody else, as long as we're happy and healthy and doing our part, then life can be a really good place. I think.

Lala Luzious:
It can. It can. It's definitely an interesting struggle. Obviously, my parents, well, in day to day life, I would identify, or at least in terms of society, as a black male. Right. And my parents couldn't send me out into the world not knowing what that means. Right. We all know that.

Lala Luzious:
There's just certain perceptions that honestly threaten my life. So they have to educate me on that, on it. But there was also things that they said, like, I remember one of the things that my grandfather told me before I left for college. He was like, "You can't do what the white kids do, and if you want to be successful at anything, you're going to have to be twice as good to get half as much." And I was like, oh, my gosh. I was like, why can't I just be good? And like, why can't I just not be good for a black student or good for a black drag queen or good for anything? I was like, why can't I just be good? And the fact that I'm good takes me where I want to go. And so that's why sometimes when I work with other people of color in drag and in other ways, I want to have some shifts in that conversation so much because it's just the world isn't the same as what we were necessarily taught. And we have to be in the world that we're in.

Lala Luzious:
And some of those rules do apply. We all know that there's stereotypes and all types of isms and obias. Right. But sometimes they don't. And honestly, if I had thought like that, I know for a fact I would not be sitting here talking with you right now like this. I know I wouldn't be here. And I can't even imagine not having been a drag queen performer. It's changed my whole life and I would have denied myself that had I listened.

Jennifer Norman:
I will say that many, many years ago, this was back when I was in my late 20s and I had graduated. I got my MBA from Georgetown. One of my best friends during Georgetown was a male. And after graduation, he came out, not as if I didn't know, but not as if anybody didn't know, we knew. But he came out and afterwards got hired by a very big prestigious food company. I went to visit him and he gave me my very first gay bar experience. It was Minneapolis!

Lala Luzious:
Where'd you go???

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, Lord, if I could remember that. It was like 30 years ago. Okay, but I almost got kicked out because I went into a room I was not supposed to. I didn't realize that they were like...

Lala Luzious:
I know where you were at. I won't say it on the podcast, but I do know where you're at now. Yep. Aha. Yep. Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
Because, you know, here I was. It was my first experience. And he's like, come in here, I want you to see this. And I was like, wow. You know, my eyes were opened and I, and of course, and then I feel a big hand on my shoulder trying to drag me out the door. You're not supposed to be here! And we had to like, beg and plead. Like, I had no idea.

Jennifer Norman:
So anyway, that's funny that it's still around number one and number two, that you know which place it probably was. But I will say that this was a very different time in that it was not acceptable for the intermingling. It was like my friend had just come out because he didn't feel comfortable at place like Georgetown Business School to be gay. And then interestingly enough, when he started working for this large food company, he felt the desire to become trans, to start dressing as a woman and to go buy a new moniker and requested that everybody call him Coco Chanel, whatever the name was. And it got him fired. And this would not happen today because of diversity and training and all of that, but it got him fired.

Jennifer Norman:
And not only did it get him fired, it got him committed. Like, at the time, he was, oh my goodness, committed to a psychiatric ward, had to go on meds. And it damaged him for the longest time. And I've lost touch with him. I don't know how he is now. However, it was a really, really dark time. And there was something about the non acceptance of somebody who wanted to transition the way that they presented themselves and feeling like that was a mental illness. And so I'm pretty confident you've probably had experience with some folks in the community that may or may not have been sanctioned as such.

Jennifer Norman:
And so I was just curious to see from your perspective. Like, for me, I feel like it's a bit heartbreaking as we're fast forwarding to today, because I keep saying, like, that would never happen today. Like, we would have more compassion, we'd have more understanding. We would know what to do. Back then, it was just like, this is a scourge on our reputation. We can't have this person in our department. And so it just, to me, shows the progress of where we've come. But yet I still believe that some people are having such a struggle with their own gender identity or identity in general.

Lala Luzious:
And gender in general.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you tell us, like, are there any stories or any experiences that you've had that enlightening for you that you'd want people to know about?

Lala Luzious:
Yeah, so many things. I, gosh, I don't even know where to start. I think in terms of my own journey, I never came out. I think that people just knew. Came out as gay. I should say I never really came out as gay.

Lala Luzious:
Coming out as a drag queen, coming from a successful black family, that was difficult. It was very difficult. I don't identify as trans just because with the trans people I know, and this is just me talking to me from my perspective when I talk to them, there's a part in their story where they felt that they were born in the wrong body or the wrong gender or however you want to phrase it. I've never felt that about myself, and that's when I knew I just liked drag. I also like to look like I'm on the red carpet all the time, so I was that. But not. It's not something I care to go to the grocery store in, nor would I do that. And if you do that, that's wonderful. Some of my favorite, favorite, favorite, best, and truly the best entertainers in the drag community are trans entertainers.

Lala Luzious:
So I love everybody the way they are. But for me, I just knew it wasn't my story, so I didn't have that. But still, having to come out as someone who was willing to play with gender to my family was difficult. We didn't talk for a long time. Okay, about 10 years. But 10 years later, my mom was front row of Pride, watching me, cheering me on. And so I think that I do. If I can share anything about my personal story, I want people to know that whatever you're going through, even if it's with the people that have hurt you the most, it can change.

Lala Luzious:
And I want those people who may be going through things like that to have faith. We've seen the world change a lot, but sometimes it is those individual people in our lives that you want that Love and acceptance from. And it can change. So I want to say that. But for me, when I think of why it's that way, Change in any capacity has always scared people, and unfamiliar has always scared people, unless they're people that are naturally curious and stuff. But for most people, as a society's general collective consciousness, it scares them. I had a very interesting time in my life where I was in rural Indiana and I wanted to do drag so bad, but I didn't drive. So I was stuck in a cornfield.

Lala Luzious:
Literally a cornfield. And I was just like, we're gonna have drag shows out here in this cornfield. So I started it, and I got so much pushback from the community. Like, they're gonna do this in front of our kids. God doesn't like this. I will tell you, Curiosity always gets people, because every single show line out the door round the to see us. By time I left, I was. I did it for four years.

Lala Luzious:
By time I left, we were the highest paying drag show in all of Indiana. Literally in the middle of nowhere. We paid queens the most just because we were generating that much revenue. And so where I'm going with this is that once people saw it, they had a blast and they had fun and they were witnessing people who have found a way to find joy. Where I live was a pretty miserable part of Indiana where everybody was just struggling and it was poor. It just was. I'm not even gonna lie about it. I won't say where I'm from, just I'm not gonna throw them under the bus.

Lala Luzious:
But it was just a miserable part of the state, right? But they had found people who had found joy against all odds, and they got to witness it and enjoyed it with us. And that's what I feel like people are doing when they deny people the freedom to be themselves. You are denying their joy and your gatekeeping joy. Why would you do that? And I don't care what you believe politically, personally, it's just not human to do that to other humans. No matter what your views are. I just feel like no one should be denying joy to anybody. So I want people to think about that when they make those types of decisions. Obviously, legally and stuff, times have changed and, you know, there's a lot more protections now.

Lala Luzious:
But that doesn't necessarily always mean that minds have changed. It just means there's protections in place for those minds that haven't. But I want people to think about that. There's no reason to gatekeep joy.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, what a beautiful message. I think that a lot of people do out of fear or just ignorance. They just see it and they see the stark difference: "and this is supposed to be a man." And they think mental issues or they think something is wrong from that perspective rather than this is a, it's a sense of humor, it's satire. A lot of it is. It's fun. And less harm in your children of that than a lot of the other things that are being...

Lala Luzious:
Oh, kids love drag. And I know that that's a hot topic right now. Kids in drag. Honestly, I have a goal that when I'm a little bit older, cause I still, I always joke and say that I'm a spring chicken, even though I'm not. But I have that like spring chicken energy in me still. So once that settles down a little bit and I don't want to like travel and tour as much or maybe do as many performances, I do want to bring dragon schools. I wish that as a young child I was allowed to explore myself so creatively.

Lala Luzious:
And I think it opens...I didn't grow up until I became a drag queen. I just, yeah, queer people have to spend most of their childhood hiding who they are. And because they're doing that, they're not figuring out who they are because they're just so worried about covering their tracks or making sure they're not to this or that. And there's never any space. So then when I started doing drag, that was really my first time where I just, the doors just burst wide open. I was like, yeah, it can figure me out. While also wearing dresses and having fun. But you know, I was also figuring myself out too for the first few years that I was performing.

Lala Luzious:
And I just wish, I always say, I was like, I just wish I had done it sooner. And I would love, love, love watching the 14 year old drag queen I mentioned, if she listens to this, hey, Kyleee with three E's, I'm sure she will. She follows all my stuff, up and coming drag star here in the Twin Cities. But just watching them being able to just learn and make mistakes at such a young age and they'll ask questions like, am I doing this right? Or what would make me a better drag queen here? And just to have those opportunities at a younger age, I would have appreciated that so much in my life.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. What message would you like to convey to those who believe that drag is harmful or immoral? What would you want to say to those people?

Lala Luzious:
On a more blunt level, I think that you must really take a look at why you have a problem with it. Do you have a problem with drag, or do you have a problem with queer people? Because it is not a problem when Tyler Perry does it. Everybody has seen Mrs. Doubtfire, including people's kids, but suddenly you get openly queer performing in nightclubs, and that cannot be shown in front of your kids. So the first question I would ask is, do you really have a problem with drag? If you do, I just think that people need to be more educated, not necessarily about drag, but about history, gender bending, gender roles, and honestly, cross dressing. Trans identities are throughout history. Wigs were first made for men. Heels were first made for men so they could be taller and stuff like that.

Lala Luzious:
So when you put it into perspective, it's always been a part of humanity. And that's kind of what I think. People look at drag performers and they're like, oh, they're so...sometimes...sometimes like they're, oh, they're so wild and they're so crazy. They're like...No. I have just accepted that I am a human, and that can mean so many different things. And I'm going to be all of those different things at any time, or one of those things now, if that's what I want, or another thing now. And if people started viewing the world like that, who wouldn't want to give that type of freedom and happiness to their child? Who wouldn't want to do that for their kid? If you really love your kid, why would you want to deny them that?

Lala Luzious:
So that's where I would then say, drag is for kids, just like certain movies are for kids. We don't do the same numbers for kids that we would at a nightclub. That's just if you're a professional, that's not what we would do. Just like certain songs and movies aren't for kids. We're artists. We know our audience, Right? But there's nothing about drag in terms of what it is that can't be for kids. People just have a very closed mind because it's queer people.

Jennifer Norman:
That could be true. And to me, there are a lot of powerful lessons in it. Number one, I feel like somebody who is drag....and I will say that most of my friends and those that I know in the LGBTQ community have such a strong sense of self. Like, I always wish that as I was growing up that I had that kind of self confidence, self knowledge, understanding of who I was and what I wanted out of life. And to me, it almost gives you permission to live unabashedly, to be unapologetically. And just really living life to the fullest and knowing that there are endless possibilities in the world to be and to become anything that you want to be. And I think that that's a really good lesson for people in general.

Jennifer Norman:
I think it's also a very good lesson as a parent, is that when you have a child, and I do have a son who's 18, and I think about the life that I had envisioned for him as when he was born and when he's grow up. And a lot of parents have these idyllic sensibilities and these visions of what their child will become when they're older. Oh, they're going to be this and that. And they really try to navigate and steer their children so tightly in many cases towards that direction. And if the child wishes to veer off and be their own selves and explore, then it's like, get back in the lane. Get back in the lane. And so putting up all of these restrictions, that child as his or her own unique human being and expression of energy. So as I have evolved as a parent, I've realized it's like no expectations, nothing but love.

Jennifer Norman:
My job is to love. And whatever the child wishes and wants and decides to become is beautiful and it's wonderful. And it has nothing to do with what my wishes are or what I'm hoping or who they'd marry or...it has nothing to do with that. My opinions don't matter. It's really like, I love you. I love you unconditionally. And that's what real unconditional love is.

Jennifer Norman:
I think that a lot of people are very much not understanding the idea of what true unconditional love is and decide, okay, I can't accept this. It's not something that reflects how I want my family to be. Let's walk away from that. Let's have no expectations. Let's just let people live their lives.

Lala Luzious:
One of my favorite quotes by my favorite author, Maya Angelou, is "When people show you who they are, believe them the first time." A lot of times that quote is used in a way that's like, oh, if people have wronged you or hurt you, just believe that's who they are and walk away. I've always read it, and even the first time I read it, I always read it as. When someone comes to you as they are, just know that that's who they are, that that's what they're presenting. So when I think of, like, the conversation of trans peoples particularly, I'm just like, this is who they're showing me they are. Why do I need to believe anything else? Like, I know myself better than anybody else and they know themselves better than anybody else. And that's just it.

Lala Luzious:
Like it's only my job to believe it. Now, if people base on their actions do you wrong, that's a different thing. But in terms of just who they are, just believe them. It's what they're putting out there. There's nothing to fight about. That's what it is. And I always have navigated the world with that mindset from a very young age. I watch a lot of people famous, like movie, Hollywood women, because that's kind of like my vibe, especially when I'm on stage.

Lala Luzious:
So I always am observing people. But I think there's always a truth in the way that someone present themselves. And I've never come across somebody who. Unless someone who's intentionally malicious. But people who are genuine, they present themselves as how they want to be. And I think that it's so important to respect that. So to hear that kids are now being raised because like you said, I don't have kids, but I had parents that expected things from me that clearly did not happen. But to have the gift of being raised without that pressure, I can't even put into words.

Lala Luzious:
Like I'm stumbling over my words thinking about what a gift that would be to have as a child. So I'm so happy to hear that from you for sure.

Jennifer Norman:
And I know that it's not easy for a lot of people and so I do empathize with parents that it is when something does happen that isn't to your expectations, it can feel like a loss, it can feel like grief. It can take a while to go through the process of coming to acceptance and hopefully that person will. If not, then obviously there are situations where there are rifts in families or friendship and all of that, it does happen. The hope is that somebody will love you enough and showcase their love enough to say, even if I need a little bit of time, I love you and I want you to know that beyond anything, I'm always going to be here for you. It just might take me a little bit of time to like mentally deconstruct all of this and reconstruct what the new present looks like. So...

Lala Luzious:
And that's okay. I think that people, unfortunately, I feel like sometimes the queer community doesn't allow space for people, people to have their emotions and educate there. I've seen so many situations where people are just expected to show up and know Everything I was like, where is the space for learning? It was so different for me being in Indiana because I was in an area where nobody knew anything about this stuff. So I found myself constantly teaching people, and I became very comfortable with having the conversations as long as I could tell that their intentions were to really be genuine and learn.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Lala Luzious:
I do think that there should be space for learning, space for processing, and space for those things. So, yes, anything I say, I do want to acknowledge that there should always, always, always be space for that.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that that is definitely the case for anything that might be new or society is always changing. The things that are acceptable today will be far beyond later on in life. I'm sure a lot of times we'll probably be having conversations about other things where we're like, do you remember back in 2024, all of things?

Lala Luzious:
I have a question for you, Jennifer.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. Yeah.

Lala Luzious:
Okay. So I want you to try to pick a drag name while we have our time together. What is the first name that pops into your head that sounds the most fabulous?

Jennifer Norman:
Well, you know what? The name that I think of, which isn't really a great drag name, but it is a name that I actually have affection for, is that if my son were going to be a girl, I was going to name him Luella Skye. And so I think that that might be my drag name. Luella Skye.

Lala Luzious:
I think that's a beautiful drag name. Oh, my goodness. Okay, first song.

Jennifer Norman:
Well, and then go by Lulu or something like that. I like that. So it's Lala and Lulu!

Lala Luzious:
Yes. We can talk. I have a long list of duets that we can work on. If this happens, if I'm in LA, we are gonna make it happen for sure. What do you think your first song would be? I think everybody remembers their first song in drag.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. It's so interesting because I think about what my first song would be if I was a drag queen. I don't know. Wow, that's a really good question. I often go straight to, like, Lady Gaga or something like that. Like Poker Face or. Yeah.

Lala Luzious:
You know what?

Jennifer Norman:
Everybody does Born This Qay.

Lala Luzious:
You know, I would say this. If there are any emerging drag artists listening, when you do your first song, make it about what you want, because you'll never forget it. It will be with you for the rest of your life. So. Okay, that's what I think.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. See, I automatically think Lady Gaga, and then I'm like, no, that's not really me.

Lala Luzious:
I see it. I see It. I can see it. I can see, like the pop can roller hair type thing for you that you did in the Telephone video. I think it could be fun. It could be a thing.

Jennifer Norman:
All right, we'll have to see. Oh, this might be an interesting Halloween theme for one year coming up.

Lala Luzious:
Yes, do it. Honestly, I think that everybody listening, if you are able to, please try doing drag once. And it does not matter the gender. I actually should talk about that real quick.So one misconception is that there's always a cross dress aspect, but actually, in the actual drag community, there's now four different types of drag. So there are drag queens, which are usually masc identifying individuals transitioning into women characters. Drag kings, which are femme identifying individuals transitioning into masked characters. But now there's something called femme, which are women who also identify as femme in their daytime, but they just amp it up at night. And they're wearing the wigs and the heels and the lashes too.

Lala Luzious:
And then there's also male entertainment, which I always kind of say the best way I can describe it is like a male version of a Las Vegas showgirl. I mean, these are over the top costumes, amazing choreography, sometimes not. Yeah, they have makeup on too. So there's really so many ways to do drag now. So I encourage everybody, no matter what you want to do, just try drag once. You're gonna have a blast.

Jennifer Norman:
Okay, that is our assignment, everyone. We're gonna do drag this Halloween. Lala, what is next for you? What do you have going on that you'd like for everybody to know about?

Lala Luzious:
That is a great question. I just released my first new episode in two years of my podcast, Snack Size the Podcast. And I have been away from podcasting for a while. I went through a time. I went through a breakup. I was gonna try to find a creative way to like, but I did, and that was two years ago. And so I kind of...my podcast is about living your fabulous life. And I was like, my life doesn't feel fabulous right now, so I can't do this show.

Lala Luzious:
But over the course of two years, I would just get like a random listener email or an invitation to do a podcast. This is actually the first guesting spot I've had since I've been back, so thank you for having me. And I kind of realized that I was still able to make an impact. So I'm exploring that now. I'm finding all types of fun guests. My next...the guest that I released today was on RuPaul's Drag Race, Pandora Box. She was absolutely amazing.

Lala Luzious:
And then my next guest is actually the Boss of Burlesque, which is akin to the drag community. So if you ever get a chance to get a burlesque performer, it's similar but it's different and it's a super fun conversation about that type of performance. But I'll be. They actually happen to live in Minnesota, so I'm going over to their house this weekend to record that and talk about burlesque. And I just, I don't know, I want to explore, just like you said. I get to meet people that I wouldn't normally get to meet and I'm really excited to do that and grow in that way.

Lala Luzious:
In the meantime, I am heavily booked all over Minneapolis. So if you are in the Twin Cities and want to come see me in a show, follow me on social media. I'm probably on stage somewhere and I'd be happy, happy to see some new friends.

Jennifer Norman:
Well, Lala Luzious, thank you so much for being on the podcast. What a joy. And I hope to get to Minneapolis and see one of your shows one day or two. Get your fine buns out to LA.

Lala Luzious:
Yes, we're going to get you in drag, we're going to do a duet and then we'll go back to that club and relive your first experience. That's the plan for sure. And thank you so much for having me. This was a blast.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you for listening to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Be sure to follow, follow rate and review us wherever you stream podcasts The Human Beauty Movement is a community based platform that cultivates the beauty of humankind. Check out our workshops, find us on social media, and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more at thehumanbeautymovement.com. Thank you so much for being a beautiful human.