What I Learned Raising 4 LGBTQIA+ Kids with Tammy Plunkett

Jennifer Norman:
Hello to all of my beautiful humans today. Welcome to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. My name is Jennifer Norman. I'm the founder of The Human Beauty Movement and your host. The Human Beauty Movement is an initiative that I created to help foster radical self-love, radical acceptance, and radical self-expression. It's a beautiful thing when we can love ourselves so deeply that it liberates us and enables us to love and appreciate others, no matter who they are or how they choose to express themselves. I created this podcast to have open conversations about all aspects of the human experience. Together, we'll learn more about each other, open our hearts and minds, and discover the inner beauty that connects us all. So take a moment now to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode. I'm so glad that you're here, joining me for today's show.

Jennifer Norman:
These days, it's common to invite people to share their preferred pronouns. Gender diversity is more publicly demonstrated than it was in the past, and so it's new territory for many people. Navigating what to say and how to say it regarding gender identity and sexual preference isn't easy. And of course, deep-seated feelings and opinions can lead to conflict between those who have different beliefs regarding LGBTQIA+ lifestyles and rights. That's why I wanted to bring on an expert to the show to talk about inclusive communication. Tammy Plunkett is a certified allyship coach. She's the author of Beyond Pronouns, The Essential Guide for Parents of Trans Children. But most notably, she's the mom of four amazing kids, all who identify as queer, including two transgender teens. Welcome to the show, Tammy.

Tammy Plunkett:
Thank you so much for having me.

Jennifer Norman:
This is going to be a riveting conversation, and I am so glad that we're having it, because it can be very difficult, especially if you're a parent and you have four children that have come out. Now, your children are between 16 and 27. I'm sure that each of them had a different story when they discovered what their own true identity was. Can you tell us about what that was like?

Tammy Plunkett:
Yes, I believe that it would have been my oldest child who initially came out as bisexual in their teens, and then my second oldest as well. Not too long right after that, and I sort of dismissed it. I said, well, we all are attracted to girls in high school. I was very attracted to girls in high school, and I had a couple of relationships. I said, that doesn't make you bisexual. And the kids were like, yeah, it does. Like, mom, you're bisexual and you're dismissing it. So bi erasure is a huge topic in our family and in the world right now.

Tammy Plunkett:
And then a few years passed along, and then my third child came out as transgender. So he was assigned female at birth, and he was eleven and shared that he was a boy. He wanted to start a transition now. He had been miserable for two years prior to that. From the time that puberty had started, he was just anxious all the time. Depressed, panic attacks. There was no way of making him happy. And we had tried everything, and he was doing the self exploration as well, because he wasn't happy within himself.

Tammy Plunkett:
And then found, like, we talk openly in our family about LGBTQ issues, but never really talked about transgender. It wasn't definitely not as prominently discussed as today. So he had seen a video and said, this is it, this is it. He finally was able to put his finger on it and came out to us. That was quite an experience. I had thought that I was very liberal minded and open to all things, and I had a lot of fear for what his future would look like because of the negative conversations out in the ether. So we had a lot to learn with Mitchell and a lot of emotions that I go through in the book in great detail as well. So many emotions, and I'm sure we'll talk more about it as we go along in the podcast.

Tammy Plunkett:
And then my oldest child came out as non binary, so it went back to learning about non binary, because everything that I was learning with Mitchell was along the female to male, male to female spectrum. Non binary was a whole nother adventure for us as a family and learning to use they them pronouns and what does non binary truly mean? And so that was another adventure for us. And then my youngest child came out as a trans girl. I had my suspicions with Mitchell. It came out of the blue. I didn't know what to expect. And with Rose, we had seen it coming for a couple of years that she needed to come to her own expression and identity on her own and be ready to share on her own. And we laughed because she said she had to make sure that she was ready to take the pay cut, because tongue in cheek, about how women are very aware children, and they have taught me so much. They have taught me so much about life.

Jennifer Norman:
And that really is it is that they are so progressive and forward, and we're definitely in a new era where life is moving so fast, and openness is really very interestingly liberating because I think before there were all these suspicions and things that we would hold inside and we wouldn't know what to make of our emotions and how we felt about ourselves. And I think that it could lead to a lot of things like depression or just complete closing off from relationships and a lot of different things that now it seems like the openness is helpful for people to just get to know themselves a little bit more and to appreciate themselves more fully and wholly and be able to express themselves in ways that I think that we never had the courage to before.So I really do commend and applaud your kids for being courageous. No doubt they do know what they're getting into. Those that are in the LGBTQIA community do suffer a lot of pressure from bullying, mental health issues because of a lot of the non-acceptance that still is rampant within our society and just a lot of people misunderstanding what they're about. And so it's amazing that you have this whole life and this whole emporium of wonderful children that are able to teach you the entire spectrum of what it means to be an ally.And so let's talk about what you feel like your emotions were going through the course of each of your children's transitions and stories, because, as you said, it also kind of liberated you or made you think about yourself as like, wow, I didn't realize that I was bi, or I never would have labeled it as such. And so that was probably one of the first learnings. And then when you have a child that first comes out as bi, you said that you dismissed it, but then at what point do you think that you began to accept it?

Tammy Plunkett:
I truly feel that Mitchell was the event that clenched it all and had it all fall into place. It was through Mitchell coming out that all of us in the family slowed down and looked at our sexuality and our identity. And it's like, even I was like, am I truly a woman? What does it mean to be a woman? Do I feel like I am a woman? Am I happy with my feminine presentation, or am I doing this because it's what society expects of me? And so I had to slow down and look at that myself, and I am a woman, and I feel alignment with what society expects of me. It is my natural presentation. But I now understand that that is what my two youngest children had to go through, was society was putting this expectation on Mitchell to have pigtails and curly hair and wear dresses and play with dolls, and none of that felt in alignment for him. He did it, and he did it well, but on the inside, it didn't fit. So at some point, he got tired of putting on the show of what it was to be a girl and to perform the roles of a girl in the world and said, this doesn't work for me. And it took him a while to figure out that that's what it was.

Tammy Plunkett:
So my emotions run the gamut, and they were not linear. They were all over the place. I started out with fear. I was afraid for my children's futures. I was afraid that the world wouldn't accept them. I was afraid that, especially with my trans kids, that they wouldn't be able to get a job if they fell in love with the parents of the person they fell in love with. Accept them. There were so many fears that I had, and it wasn't because I didn't love my child.

Tammy Plunkett:
It's because of what I was afraid the world saw and thought, and I say this often. When Mitchell first came out, there were bathroom laws being debated in North Carolina. So it was still very much in the news as a negative thing. It hasn't changed. It's still in the news as a negative thing. But that was one of the things that came with the fear. And then there was something that I talk about that not a lot of people talk about or were not talking about. Seven years ago was the experience of feeling some form of grief.

Tammy Plunkett:
Now, it wasn't that my child was dying. It was the ideas that I had for future. When he was using female presentation and names and stuff like that, I felt like there wouldn't be a father daughter dance. There wouldn't be a grad dress shopping spree. Like, there was all of these futures that I had imagined for my child that will no longer happen. When you're in the throes of a whole emotional upheaval, it's hard to see that there is a lot of good. We did go shopping for a grad suit, and there was a mother son dance at his graduation. So there are so many positives in it.

Tammy Plunkett:
But in the moment, I was just so overwhelmed with the amount of change. And it was not a change that was taught. We didn't know until it was possible. So there was some bargaining. There was like, all of the stages of grief were really what happened when the kids came out. And it was different when Rose came out. I had already written the book. I'd already been the lead in a peer led support group.

Tammy Plunkett:
I'd met hundreds of parents of trans kids. Hundreds of trans kids. So when she came out, it was like, okay, well, here's all of the things we need to do. I'm ready. I'm on board. I've got this. And she was like, no, slow your roll. I'm not ready to jump into all of these things.

Tammy Plunkett:
So, the biggest lesson from that that I share all the time with clients is if you know one transgender person, you know one transgender person, every transgender person has a different journey, a different experience. Some people take medication, some people don't. Some people dress differently, some people don't. Some people change their names, some people don't. Some people need it to happen immediately. Some people need it to happen over a decade. So everyone has a different journey. And we can't just assume things of transgender people.

Jennifer Norman:
I love that message because it seems like a lot of people are very much like, oh, if you're trans, then you want to just change directly from man to woman. But to your point, there is this gender fluidity. There is a spectrum regardless of the body, the physical sensibility that you've been given biologically. It's like, how do you feel? How do you want to express yourself? How does your whole aura want to live in this human form? And it could be very much female, like you or myself, or it could be very much male, or it could be all of the above and everything in between all at once.

Tammy Plunkett:
Yes.

Jennifer Norman:
So, as far as your earlier life, you were a registered nurse before you started becoming a coach and doing the work that you're doing now. Would you say that your work as a registered nurse helped to inform you in terms of your ability to understand what was happening and what was going on, or do you think that that really didn't help at all? What was that like?

Tammy Plunkett:
Yeah, it hindered in the beginning, to be completely honest, because I'm not a spring chicken. My nursing education happened a long time ago, in the 90s. Let's just say it. Back then, being transgender was considered a mental illness. And so when Mitchell initially came out, my first thought was, you need to see a psychologist, and he was in need of mental health care, but it was because of reconciling his identity and how the world was treating him. It wasn't because transgender equals mentally ill. So that was how my nursing hindered in my assumptions of what being transgender meant. Like, I didn't even know what it meant.

Tammy Plunkett:
And then later on, it helped. My children have chosen different degrees of medical transition, so it has helped in terms of understanding medication, knowing how to give a needle, knowing how to talk to doctors, knowing how to ask about side effects and positive effects of medication. So, in that term, it has been helpful, but initially, it created some preconceived notions that are not healthy. Just to be clear, the World Health Organization has removed transgender or gender identity and dysphoria as a mental illness.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you.

Tammy Plunkett:
I like to say that because a lot of people in the medical field right now, for many jurisdictions, in order to access health care, gender affirming health care, you need a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. So that is where. Because there's a lot of mental health struggles and issues in gender diverse people, there's this narrative that it's a mental illness. There are mentally well and healthy individuals who go about their lives with gender diversity. And so it's not a one equals the other.

Jennifer Norman:
Absolutely. And so I'm curious, because there's such a debate these days about gender affirming surgery and transitioning medically among youth. And should there be an age limit? Should there be this idea that they should wait until they're adults until they do that? I'm curious what your take is now that you've lived the experience with teens, with young ones, and see what they go through from your own personal perspective, not that it's the same for everybody to your .1 trans person's experience is one trans person's experience.

Tammy Plunkett:
Yeah. This is my personal opinion and approach, and that is to do the minimum amount to create the happiest person. So gender dysphoria is tremendously stressful. I have seen it firsthand. We have had suicidal ideation plans and ended up in the emergency room. It's not a joke. So when a person has that tremendous amount of gender dysphoria, gender affirming care relieves it. So that is the purpose of the gender affirming care.

Tammy Plunkett:
However, I am of the thought with a minor, you do as little as you need to do to get them to a space of happiness. For some people, it is all of it right now. First of all, a body that is still growing cannot have surgery. So sometimes that's a dog whistle that some groups use just to make it sound like we're mutilating or chopping children up. And that's not true. It does not happen, period. Thank you for, in terms of medication, some of the medications have permanent effects. So the gender blockers.

Tammy Plunkett:
So the puberty blockers do not have a permanent effect. And they've been used for 40 years in cisgender children who had precocious puberty. They're also used to treat infertility. They're used for prostate cancer. Like, these are drugs that are being used throughout the world. So it's not that we are experimenting on children, either. I'm trying to counter some of the narratives out there.

Tammy Plunkett:
So, hormone blockers. I think anybody should have access to them if they need them. If they are in distress and they need them, they should have access to them. Cross hormones. If the distress is real and it needs to be treated, then I think that with a doctor, a psychologist, parents, everyone's on board, then we should use cross hormones as needed. I don't believe that because a child comes home to their parent and says, I'm transgender, that we march a kid off to the doctor and then put them on a prescription of all of these medications and procedures because some children don't want or need that. You just mentioned, very rightly, that there are gender fluid people, and they may not need to have hormones or alterations to their body. They may only choose to change how they express themselves in their clothing and their hair and their accessories. So it's not a one and done.

Tammy Plunkett:
Everybody gets the same treatment. All of that said, I don't feel that legislation saying that, okay, you can't do it until you're 18, but at the age of 17 and 360 days, you have no idea who you are, and then five days later, you know who you are. That, to me, just doesn't make any sense at all. So there are 16 year olds who are, in some states, allowed to get married. They are cooking your food, flipping burgers, and not giving you food poisoning and operating farm equipment and not killing themselves, bobbing legs off with the farm equipment. Like, we trust youth in so many areas of their life, but in concert with medical professionals and parents, all of a sudden, they can't make a decision. So, yeah, I could be passionate about.

Jennifer Norman:
Absolutely. I'm curious what the emotional reaction was of their dad when they were going through all of this as well. Were you aligned? Were there differences in the way that you handled the news for each of your children?

Tammy Plunkett:
Yeah, I think we are aligned in our values in terms of wanting the best for our children. And we value science, we value medical professionals, and we both value therapy and psychology as well. We came to an acceptance at a different time, and we also process the world very differently. I'm an external processor. I'll write about it. I'll speak about it. I'll go and find all the information I can. Whereas their dad was much more of an internal processor, so he would just turtle and just go through everything on his own.

Tammy Plunkett:
But when it was time to show up for the kids, he would be there. He'd come to the medical appointments and to the therapy appointments and show up for anything that they needed.

Jennifer Norman:
Do you think that he had his own questions of his own gender identity, as you did?

Tammy Plunkett:
I don't think so. He hasn't spoken to me about it. He's a quiet guy, but he definitely still seems very in touch with his masculine side.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, people process things differently. It's interesting to see that. Well, now you wrote the book beyond pronouns, the essential guide for parents of trans children. I'm curious what the impetus was behind that book and what people can expect. You wrote it once your child Mitchell, had his transition. And so I'm curious what is contained in there and what are some of the things that people can expect?

Tammy Plunkett:
So the impetus for the book was actually an article that I wrote for today's parent. It was essentially the soul of the story was that I was feeling some sense of grief. And the narratives that I heard out there were always, parents were either 100% accepting from the moment their kid came out and they whipped out the pompoms and everything was a celebration, or parents were sending their kids off to conversion therapy and kicking their kids out. And I was in between that. Like, I wasn't ready to celebrate. When Mitchell first came out, I had all of those fears and emotions, but I was definitely not going to send him off to conversion therapy like I believed him and was ready to affirm him. But I had more feelings than just yes and no. So I wrote that in an article, and the response was overwhelming.

Tammy Plunkett:
The numbers of emails and messages that I received from parents saying, this is exactly how I feel, and nobody is saying it. So there was that piece, and then there was leading the support group that I was in, hearing the same questions over and over and over again from the parents. They were always asking the same questions. So I said, well, what about if I just did the research and found the answers to these questions and put them in a book, and then they would have a resource when their kid first came out. So, beyond pronouns truly focuses on a social transition of a younger child. Essentially, when I first wrote it, it was what to do in the first hundred days. So it's really in that beginning stage. How do you tell the grandparents? How do you tell the school? Do you only talk about it in the house, or is it discussed outside of the house? What do you do when you're co parenting? What do you do with all of your own feelings? And that is a huge part of it, is the self care proponent of we can't serve from an empty cup, and we need to be there because this is a long term thing.

Tammy Plunkett:
This is not a flash in the pan. This is a big life step within the family. So everyone in the family has to be taken care of. So I'm quite proud of it. I am contemplating writing a follow up book which would be about how caregivers can be of service to their youth when the youth goes through a medical transition. So not the first hundred days, but more when they're older and ready to look at a medical transition. Wow.

Jennifer Norman:
So you just talked about a few of the big questions. It's like, how do we tell, what do we do? Those sorts of things? And I'm curious what your take would be on when is the right time? It is going to be those 1st 100 days, like to make this public announcement. Is it up to the child? Is it a mutual agreement? How do you recommend going about that?

Tammy Plunkett:
Yeah. So the co leader of the support group that I ran was a trans woman, and she and I together came up with this analogy and I've just loved it so much and people really resonate with it. And that is that your child has to drive the bus. And it can be very terrifying as an adult to have an eight year old, an eleven year old, or even a 15 year old driving the bus sometimes. So they get to decide who gets on the bus. So the child gets to decide who gets to know. They get to decide if they want grandma to know. Is it them who tells grandma or do they want mom to tell grandma? Rose, my youngest, when she came out to me, said, I don't want to tell the school right away.

Tammy Plunkett:
I don't want to change my pronouns and name at school. Yet she came out in May and school was ending in June. So we decided to wait until September when they went and use that summer to really be sure and try on and tell other people slowly, like she didn't want the Facebook announcement, whereas Mitchell did. So each again, each person is very different. So ask your child, let them drive the bus. The other thing I say about the bus is that there are rules of the road to reassure parents because it can be scary to have a kid driving a bus, but we have to realize that they can't drive 85 in a 60 zone, right? So there are speed limits, there are ways of the road. So when Mitchell came out at eleven, the one thing he wanted the most was a beard. He so wanted a beard.

Tammy Plunkett:
And I said, well, look around your classroom and you tell me what other eleven year old kids have a beard. They don't. So at eleven, he could not start testosterone. It just wasn't an option. So that's the rules of the road. So it is the kids who need to make the decisions, and then we need to follow suit along with them.

Jennifer Norman:
Great advice. Great advice. Now, I think that you offer so much support for parents and families, but you also provide support for organizations, because, let's face it, this is a new thing that a lot of companies are going through where they must show allyship. They must. It's the politically correct thing to do. But truly beyond the surface, how are they operating? How do the people feel? Do they feel included? Do they feel accepted? Do they really feel like they belong? Or is there some unconscious bias happening within an organization that could be causing tension or an unwelcome environment? Can you talk about some of the work that you do to support organizations?

Tammy Plunkett:
Yeah. The best thing that I do when I go into an organization is to ask them why they are doing this and to really have them align with why they're doing it. It can't be a ploy. It can't be, I just want to look cute on social media or have it be a statement on their website. There truly has to be a connection as to why they're doing it. And one of the reasons why I suggest it is that oppression happens to all of us. All of us are affected by it. And when all of us are working towards removing the oppression, then many hands make light work, right? So we're able to all rise above the oppression.

Tammy Plunkett:
And when I say all of us, I mean all of us. And this is something that people often dismiss and don't realize, that the old white man is also oppressed by the systems that we live under. It is not easy for a man to say, I need therapy. I'm drowning in overwhelm and stress right now. The patriarchy has put so many rules on how men are meant to show up, that they are living under those rules as well, and being oppressed by those rules. Do they have privilege, enjoy a lot of more wonderful things in life that a black, disabled trans woman does not have? Absolutely. They do have a leg up in a lot of different areas. But I think we all need to come together and have a deeper look at.

Tammy Plunkett:
We all have unconscious bias. We're all affected by systems that have blinded us as to how we are operating in the world.

Jennifer Norman:
I think that's very well said. And to the point of how when you first learned of your children's gender identities, there was a sensibility like, oh, my gosh, and there's a grief stage. And there's all of these things, and I think of organizations almost going through that same process, but in a different way. There has to be this learning of what does this mean for us? And over time, you get to acceptance. But I think that the first step is being open to it and understanding that truly underneath it all, if you really value and care for humans and understand that everybody is oppressed and everybody wants to feel like they can contribute, and everybody's got so much talents, and so why ostracize or alienate any particular subset or cohort, if you will make your company a place that is known for being good to humanity, then starting from your own values and then seeing what you can do in order to get to a place where the acceptance goes into the underpinning of your organization and into its culture. And so, yeah, it's not that we're telling every organization that they have to be fully embracing or and they're bad organizations. It's, let's do this soul searching, the training of managers. I mean, companies, organizations are filled with humans, and each of those people has to go through their own process of learning and understanding and welcoming, and then from there can create a culture.

Jennifer Norman:
It's the people that make the culture. And so I would love for you to share some of the types of support that you do provide to organizations. Once you do see, like, well, what are you doing this for? I think that to your point, starting with why is where you need to start. That's always the best place to start, is to start with why.

Tammy Plunkett:
And you did touch on it. It is reaffirming their values, and it is an exercise that a lot of companies will do, is they'll meet once a year and look at their mission and vision. And what are your true values that you really want to have show up in your work every day? And reconnecting with those values? Other sense of belonging is something that we say when it's the company culture, but it truly is belonging. If you have a diverse group of people in your company, do they all feel like they belong and that they matter? Or are they a token to say that I have x number of people of color on my board, right? And then the humanity behind it is so important. And to me, that is leading with empathy. One of the talks that I like to give is called leading with empathy. And it's truly seeing the humanity behind everyone in an organization. Gone are the days of the industrial revolution where we're all just cogs in a wheel, like everyone who shows up to a job in today's world is a human being with a full range of their own life.

Tammy Plunkett:
And we need to learn how to work together so that everyone can show up as their authentic self and feel like they belong and they matter when they go home. At the end of the day.

Jennifer Norman:
How can a company put forth this kind of culture and not seem like they're tokenizing, patronizing, just doing it to check a diversity box. What do you think that it is that can enable a company to really, truly stand for inclusion?

Tammy Plunkett:
It becomes a way of life in the company, and it's not, "Let's do a lunch and learn. Have Tammy come in and give a talk for 1 hour and then not look at it again for another year." It truly becomes a culture. It's in the policies, it's in the procedures, it's in the way everyone operates their work. There are some amazing companies out there that you can see it in action. There's a company here, it's called Benevity. And even the titles of their chief operating like their C suite are inclusive and show that they care and everything matters.

Tammy Plunkett:
So it can absolutely be done and not just be a checklist of, did we say happy Diwali on our social media this week? That's not inclusion. It seems like inclusion, but it truly is, are you doing it because you care, because you understand what it means, and because it is part of your culture? In your business? It's not a thing that we check off a box. And a lot of times you need a diversity, equity and inclusion manager in your company if you really want to have this be a big thing moving forward.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, good point. I know that in some, I would say antiquated, but we'll say policies and procedures, the way that things are communicated, handbooks and whatnot. You actually go through and you audit communications and you perhaps get out the highlighter and say, hey, this is not necessarily inclusive language. What are some of the things that you have seen that you've been like, whoa, we've got to make adjustments for this because it's not inclusive?

Tammy Plunkett:
Yes. Oh, boy. I'll stick to my wheelhouse of gender diversity, and it is not a lifestyle, it is an identity. So sometimes people will...it's not a choice. The choice in gender diversity is the choice of how much do we tell people, how much do we share our inner being, how much do we affirm ourselves in our clothing, in our medical decisions. That's where the choice is. It's not in being transgender or being non binary.

Tammy Plunkett:
That is who they are. It's how they are made from the inside. So some of the language, "ladies and gentlemen," negates anyone who is non binary. So I often say, use folks or friends or nothing at all.

Jennifer Norman:
I say beautiful humans. I don't know if that...

Tammy Plunkett:
Yes, beautiful humans is wonderful. It is very good. Yes. I think that one of the big red flags for me is when people want diversity, but they don't want inclusion and belonging. That's where the tokenism comes in. It's like, okay, we have ten employees. We want three of them to be black, two to be latino, and five of them to be women. But then when you do have the two latino people in the group, do they feel like they belong? Do they feel like they're being included? Are their messages being received? Are they asked for their opinion? Those are the things that create inclusion.

Tammy Plunkett:
Whereas it's not a matter of just having a number of veterans, a number of disabled people, it is making sure that the disabled person has access to all of the things that they need to perform the job that they're to perform. It's complicated, but tokenism is not good. So if you're a law firm, and every other law firm in my city has a diversity equity inclusion statement on their website, so I will post one on my website. If you're not doing the work, it looks very gross.

Jennifer Norman:
So the important thing is to learn to understand, to get into that idea of empathy and compassion and really respecting. I think that it has to do a lot with respecting children, for they're telling you, denying them the ability to at least have a conversation. When your beliefs or your thoughts of what the future should have been or could have been or would have been otherwise get in the way of your child living their life as happy as they can and then growing up to be fully expressed, then that's something to definitely take stock. And then as companies, if we can learn to respect, and sometimes it does, it requires us to go out of our way. There are populations that have been marginalized and haven't been heard and haven't had a voice in the past. And it is important for us to give stronger microphones to those that didn't have those voices so that we can have a bit more equity. Then I think that we'll all be able to live more harmoniously together, and inclusion and belonging will just be, rather than the exception. It's more the.

Tammy Plunkett:
Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. Tammy, I just want to thank you for your allyship. I want to thank you for all the work that you're doing. It's really wonderful that you're helping to honor people of all gender identities. You're helping to make the world a place where everyone can feel welcome. So thank you so much for being part of the movement.

Tammy Plunkett:
Thank you.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you for listening to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Be sure to follow, rate, and review us wherever you stream podcasts. The Human Beauty Movement is a community-based platform that cultivates the beauty of humankind. Check out our workshops, find us on social media, and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more at thehumanbeautymovement.com. Thank you so much for being a beautiful human.