The Beauty of Great Leadership with Paul Thornton

Jennifer Norman:
Hello beautiful humans. Welcome to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast, your source for hope, healing, happiness and humanity. My name is Jennifer Norman. I'm the founder of The Human Beauty Movement and your host. This podcast is here to guide you on your journey of self love, empowerment, soul alignment and joy. With each episode, I invite beautiful humans from all corners of the globe to join me for open conversations about their life lessons and the important work that they are doing to help heal humankind. Take a moment now to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode. I'm so glad you're here, joining me for today's show.

Jennifer Norman:
So today we are going to talk about the beauty of being a great leader. The way that I see it, every day we wake up is an opportunity to learn something new, to expand our minds, and to act in a way that makes us better than yesterday and sets the stage for our world to be better for its foreseeable tomorrows. So what does it take to be the greatest leader of your own life at work and at home? And what does inner beauty have to do with it? To answer those intriguing questions and more, I'd like to welcome Paul Thornton to the show. Paul is an author, speaker and former business professor who has written over 100 articles and 23 books on various aspects of leadership and self improvement. His mission is to help all people become more effective managers and leaders to live their most fulfilled lives. Welcome to the show Paul.

Paul Thornton:
Thank you Jennifer. I appreciate you having me on.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, it's a joy. And I'm so excited about this topic. It is so important because I think a lot of times, unfortunately, we only hear about bad leadership. We very seldom hear about good leadership. So we need more of you. We need you to spread your word about how it is and what it takes to be a great leader. But before that, I would love to hear a little bit about your background and what led you to focus on leadership and self improvement in the first place.

Paul Thornton:
Well, actually it goes back to I played hockey in high school and the team that I was on, we were always kind of like in the middle of the league. We were not near the top, not near the bottom. We were like in 4th, 5th place and two teams in the league that were always like one and two. So it got me wondering, why is that? Why can't our team be one or two? Why can't we win the championship? And it got me thinking. Our players were as good as the other kids and I thought we were very comparable. And so I concluded it had to do something to do with the coach. I thought the coaches of these top teams were doing something different, something better, something to bring out the excellence in the players, etcetera. So that kind of got me interested in the topic.

Paul Thornton:
And from there, in college, I had a great course on leadership, and that further stimulated my interest in it. So it's been kind of a lifelong passion, interest, hobby to find out what do the best leaders do to bring out the best in people, to make them excel, to have them achieve things they never imagined they could achieve, that type of thing. So that's that kind of my playing hockey is what got me interested in.

Jennifer Norman:
Leadership and team sport. That is just a great trial by fire. When you're young, you really see firsthand what it does when you have an effective coach versus ones that are ineffective. And so I guess what I would like to do is also, let's talk about effective leadership. What are some of those qualities that great leaders possess that perhaps others are missing?

Paul Thornton:
I think the big idea for me, the great leaders have an orientation that they're focused on the person, the team, the player, and they're trying to figure out what they can do to help that person achieve and be the best that they can be. So everything they do is aimed at diagnosing and figuring out what can I do to help this person up their game, improve their performance, be a better team player, that type of thing. Now, great leaders certainly challenge us. They set the bar high. They have high standards. They expect a lot. They expect more than others often think we can accomplish. And then they do a lot of things.

Paul Thornton:
They provide feedback. They provide clarity of the direction the team or group needs to go in. They give periodic updates. They encourage people. They give them the resources they need to achieve the goals that are set for the team or department, whatever it might be. So those are some of the things. But for me, again, the big idea, it's not about the leader. It's the leader thinking, how can I help my teammates, my employees? It's kind of like a parent.

Paul Thornton:
I mean, a parent does the same thing with their kid. It's not the parent thinking, what can I do to make myself better and have a bigger ego and what have you? What can I do to help my child grow, develop, be all that they can be, that type of thing.

Jennifer Norman:
Very interesting that you bring that up, because the unfortunate truth is that a lot of leadership, even a lot of parenting, is filled with ego. It is about them. And perhaps that sets apart the difference between great leaders and the ones that really are missing. The forest for the trees, because they're thinking more about what is it for them? How are they going to make themselves look better? Versus I am a servant here. The reason and the role I am here, and I humbly accept it, is to bring out the best in this organization or bring out the best in this human being that is put before me. Would you say that that's accurate?

Paul Thornton:
I think that's very accurate and very clear. And I think more managers and leaders need to think that way. Again, it's not about them. It's not about them getting the Silver Star and getting all the accolades. It's what they can do to help their people, their employees grow, develop, be the best that they can be. So it's a different focus for the top leaders than the average and ineffective leaders.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, yeah. Ultimately, I think that a lot of leaders, if you're thinking about public companies, especially, for example, I mean, a lot of times it's about monetary performance, right? It's about, okay, well, yeah, it's like getting the most out of the people, but ultimately, all the people have to be rowing in the same direction in order for us to get year over year growth or the results that we are hoping to get. Otherwise, a lot of times those leaders are replaced despite best efforts. So I'm curious what your take is and what your thoughts are about perhaps some of the reward metrics that are in place.

Paul Thornton:
Well, one thing you said kind of triggered and I thought that the inner beauty of a high performing leader, I think they have great alignment with what they think, say and do. There's great clarity there. They know who they are, they know what they believe and value and they stand up for their beliefs and values. So they have great integrity. And people with integrity we tend to, are drawn to them. We trust them, we believe in them. And I think that's what a highly aligned leader projects, that they know themselves, they know what they believe, they know what they stand for, and they model that. They set the example day in and day out.

Paul Thornton:
There's not a lot of fluctuations in that. Now, monetary rewards certainly can get us, pull us in a different direction. Sometimes they pull us away from our core beliefs and values and we start to do things that we shouldn't do. So again, a true leader who has inner beauty, inner alignment is clear and they stay true to their values and beliefs. So they operate day in and day out. And again, you know, who they are and what they stand for.

Jennifer Norman:
It really gets down to that self awareness, I think. To your point, it's like, I know what I stand for. I know what's important to me, and then I will put myself in a position within an organization of my choosing, because that particular organization aligns with my values. And that way, I will be able to shine in the way that I like to lead. And that I know is best for the people of this organization to feel that they are valuable, that they're important, and they're inspired to give their best and to be their best every single day.

Paul Thornton:
I think also, too, Jennifer, that the other side of the coin, we all have some blind spots, and we do need to be self aware and we need to be open. And I think the top leaders do exhibit that as well. They're open to feedback, to consider the feedback, not always accept it, but at least consider it, see if it makes any sense and what parts of it might be true. Incorporate that into their style and approach and learn from it. Being a good leader, being a good parent, being a good teacher, you're constantly learning and growing yourself and becoming more aware and more insightful of who you are, what you stand for. And again, how you can help people achieve and be better at what they're doing.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, I love that. And interestingly, it's funny, because I came to doing what I'm doing, which is focusing more on inner beauty, because for many years, for a couple of decades, I was in the outer beauty world, and I recognized life isn't all that. It's really the idea of external validation. I mean, having style and having beauty and being recognized as being like, physical appearance and all of that is certainly one thing, and it's nice, but it's not the be all, end all. To me, it was more important to feel that beauty within which I align to almost like an inner gratitude. Because if you have beauty, you don't recognize beauty unless you have gratitude. You have to appreciate. It's like this act of appreciation and this act of gratitude.

Jennifer Norman:
It's almost like an offering or like a prayer, if, as it were. And so I almost see that as, yes, leadership and beauty is, it's not something that's mutually exclusive. I think that it's actually very much intertwined, because there is this self awareness, this self knowing, and this knowing of what you have to offer, what you can cultivate within yourself, and what you can do to spread beauty, to spread this goodness out into the world through, by touching and impacting and inspiring humanity. And so I think it's a wonderful concept that isn't really talked about very much. The beauty of organizations and the inner beauty of how the humanity of organizations kind of comes about. But I'm curious if there are any examples that you've seen in practice, in real life that you would say, yeah, this is one area where I recognize that through a culture of, like, just beautiful leadership, like, they've really got an approach that makes sense, and it shows either in, maybe it's Glassdoor or maybe it's LinkedIn or maybe it's in their actual performance, it makes good sense. It's a great way forward, and it's a good example of a well run organization.

Paul Thornton:
Well, I think if you think about a high performing team, for example, like a pit crew at a race track or a synchronized swimming team or a college marching band, or if you got a chance to watch a high performing surgical team in a hospital perform, it is a thing of beauty that everybody is crystal clear on their roles and responsibilities. All the pieces are aligned. They are integrated. Everybody is focused on the same goal. They have the shared values, and everything is executed flawlessly. Everything is done just perfectly. It's like you step back and say, oh, my God, how do they do that? And it really is a thing of beauty. And same thing for high performing athletic teams.

Paul Thornton:
I used to coach hockey for a few years, and I'm a big sports fan, and I watch my grandkids play hockey and other sports. But when you see an athletic team performing at their best again, everybody is clear and the spacing is perfect, and it's almost like there's one brain for the whole group that's out there performing. Everybody is so aligned and what have you. It's almost like everyone knows what everyone else is going to do every second of the game, which doesn't happen that often, but when it does, it's like, oh, my God, how did they execute like that, and how did they do that? And so I do think those moments when that happens, it's a marvelous thing, and it is beauty. And I always wonder, like, what did the coach do to make that happen? How does a coach create that? How often does it happen? What does a coach do more of that? Create more of that in the player? It's not easy, don't get me wrong, but it takes a lot of communications and a lot of discussion and a lot of clarity around what is our focus and what are we trying to do, what's our mission. All those types of things need to be thought through. But eventually, when you get everyone so clear on the mission, vision, value, strategy, it just comes together and it's a wow, it's really something. So those are the types of examples that I've seen in my career.

Paul Thornton:
I say, that is unbelievable. And the leader, I believe the leader is doing some positive things to make that happen, to bring out that inner beauty, inner connectedness, inner relationships between and among all the players. And it's not something you can do. Snap your fingers and it happens. It takes a lot of work and effort and discussion and clarity and getting rid of areas where you're misaligned and maybe even replacing players. Some players don't fit on the team, and you got to get the right players in there and all of that. So I'm rambling a little bit, but you get the idea of what I mean.

Jennifer Norman:
No, it's beautiful. And thank you so much for bringing that up. It does make me think about the need to illustrate and to give that vision of the eye on the prize and that all of that work, all of that effort, all of the grunt work, which is the day to day, the practicing and the rehearsing and doing the mundanity of the everyday, it becomes worth it because it builds skill, it builds the resilience, it builds that aptitude until the organization can just flow to your point. It's just like a beautiful dance or it's a beautiful performance, and there is just this harmony and this gloriousness to behold because it seems like everybody is so in sync and almost, like, intuitively able to pass the puck to somebody without even looking, I imagine. And you're just like, oh, my gosh. My mind is blown. I can't believe they just did that. And they score.

Jennifer Norman:
So exciting. It's so exciting to see, and even in business and just being able to perform and somebody's got somebody else's back, and somebody else knows what's needed before it's even needed. And just the anticipation and being able to bring out the best in everybody is so key. And you brought up an interesting thing, and that is also about the idea and the true reality that sometimes people aren't gonna fit. Sometimes things are going to break down. Sometimes there are diverse attentions, as it were, which cause a bit of a breakdown, or maybe a monkey wrench in the system, which might bring some organizations to a halt and cause disruption and not seem so beautiful, frankly. Can you talk a little bit about how you would coach leaders to put up with these adverse events that can and do happen more? More than not, probably when people don't see the eye to eye or there's a crisis that happens, happens. You know, a product recall, it could be so many different things.

Jennifer Norman:
But what is it that great leaders do when they come across these adverse events and how they navigate out of them?

Paul Thornton:
Well, I think one thing that leaders need to do is they need to observe people in a number of occasions to see what is the pattern of the behavior. And typically the pattern. If the pattern isn't fitting and the person isn't adding value and causing strife and conflict, then you got to do something. So I think you always need to meet with the person one on one. And I think sometimes it's good to start with the discussion of what are their comments on their behavior? Are they aware of what they're doing? Are they aware of the consequences of their behavior? Their behavior may be disrupting the team. It may be causing conflicts that are really non productive. So do they get that and what do they think about that? So kind of get their view first, and then I think as a leader, you're giving them feedback on your observations that their performance is causing certain consequences, and those aren't helping the team or helping other people in the group, whatever it might be. And then it's the question of getting at what changes do they need to make.

Paul Thornton:
And I think a lot of times, parents, teachers, coaches, whatever, are too general with the change. You got to be very specific on what behavior changes are needed. The person needs to listen more. The person needs to be more open to feedback or whatever it is, but you got to get really specific about what they need to do and then get their commitment. Are they committed to make some changes going forward? Some people are, some people aren't. Some people are. Ho hum. I'll give it a try, but you can tell they're really not committed to it.

Paul Thornton:
But anyway, you want to give them a chance to see what they'll do, if they'll make the change. If they do, great. If not, you got to take steps to discipline the person or move them to another team or department or something. But the big thing, though, Jennifer, is that the leader needs to have the courage to confront that and deal with it. I see a lot of leaders that want to put their head in the sand, and they don't like conflict. They don't want to deal with it, so they don't. And that negatively affects the team and the department and the organization. A senior leader who doesn't embrace the company values that all the other senior leaders embrace and live by and operate by, even if that person's a great performer, you need to deal with that.

Paul Thornton:
If they're not embracing the company values that sends a huge message to the organization. So again, you got to have the courage to be observant of what's going on and then take the steps to deal with it. Hopefully you can help the person turn things around, but if you can't, you got to move them, fire them, terminate them in some cases for the benefit of the whole organization. You'll never have a high performing, beautiful operating company. When you have people that don't fit and aren't motivated to make any changes to fit, it just doesn't work, unfortunately.

Jennifer Norman:
Absolutely. Those are words. Well said. Very well said. And I think it's a good reminder.

Paul Thornton:
Yeah, we can't do that with our family members. In terms of terminating them, you're out of the family. In terms of our organizational team type stuff, we can take steps to say, listen, another company might be better placed for you, or another organization or another.

Jennifer Norman:
Family might be better placed for you. Sometimes that happens too dear.

Paul Thornton:
You might want to say that, but hopefully you don't say that.

Jennifer Norman:
Right? Right. Shifting gears for a sec, I'm really curious what your take is on the state of emerging technology and how organizations are handling this innovation. Risk taking. AI is taking over everything, and a lot of disparity, displacement is happening. People are working remotely. They don't want to go into the office. It's like there's a shift in the nine to five, shall we say. There's a shift in the idea of what is like corporate or company or professional these days.

Jennifer Norman:
I'm just curious what your take is. I mean, you've seen this beautiful arc that's happened over many, many, many years, and I'm just curious what your take is on where we are today and what you see see in the future as far as the sentiment of organizations and how they're handling this new territory that we're getting into in terms of innovation.

Paul Thornton:
It's complicated. I think technology represents really a set of tools that we have to do our work to get things done. A lot of the technology, of course, is new to people. So this kind of, in some cases, like an immediate reaction of, oh, my God, I got to learn how to do XYZ or I got to learn this software or AI, what's it going to mean for my job? And you get nervous and uptight about it. But I think if you think about it, that just technology is just a set of tools that will help you or hopefully will help you do your job more effectively, more efficiently. Some of the tools, though, have certainly impacted the interaction between and among people like you. Mentioned lots and lots of people working from home these days, working remotely, so you don't have the same dynamic interactions you had when everybody was in the office. So as a leader, how do you build a culture when you have people operating from their home and they really have minimal impact with other employees and maybe even minimal impact with you, the leader? So what do you need to do to build more interaction, more connection between and among the group? And I think that takes some thought, and it could be daily Zoom meetings or daily get togethers, and maybe periodically the group gets together face to face and has a day of discussion and interaction and that type of thing.

Paul Thornton:
But I think there's two things that leaders need to think about. The task, the work that needs to get done, and the people. Both of those are very important. So how does the technology affect getting the work done? Secondly, how does it affect the people, the interaction between and among people? And what are the possible negative consequences of this new technology? And what can I do to circumvent that? What can I do to make it more inclusive and get people still interacting with each other and that type of thing? So that's a long answer, but I think if leaders keep in mind those two things, the task and the people, and look at those and try to deal with both of those, both are very important and do the right things to get the work done more efficiently, more effectively. But also you got to be concerned about building your team and the dynamics of your team, and building a culture that's positive and upbeat, and that's where you get the beauty of the organization. When you build that culture that everyone buys into and everybody believes in and supports, and people have each other's back, as you mentioned before, and that becomes a high performing organization. They not only have the tools and the technology, but they have the people side, the equation to succeed, and that makes them a high performing group over time.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. Something that you just mentioned also reminded me of the fact that a lot of companies with remote and as much as they're trying to do on Zoom, I was speaking with some organizations because I also run like workplace wellness type workshops. Mental health is a big deal these days, especially post pandemic and people working remotely, like the loneliness and people just not feeling well. A lot more people are caretaking for elders, just really a lot of pressure, just from a personal perspective that tends to seep in and impact their work. And so now more than ever, I'm hearing organizations talk about we need to get our soul back. It's like they feel like before, when everybody was in the office and there was a company culture, there was a soul, there was a heartbeat, there was a feeling that this company stands for X, Y and Z, but with the dispersion and with, like, loss of connectivity, they're like, we just feel like we've lost a bit of our soul. Which is why I started soul care sessions, because it did help to bring people together and really talk in an open way about feelings and a very kind of. In a situation which was safe for employees to talk and express.

Jennifer Norman:
And so I'm curious if you've had some leaders who you've spoken with talk about ways that they are able to retain the kind of soul for their company so that they can feel that there is humanity there. It is, yes. Obviously, it's about performance and high standards, and we want to do the very best, high quality that we can. But there's also this very human aspect that I'm working with and being very open minded to in order to help people just feel okay at work.

Paul Thornton:
Yeah. What I've heard, really three things that companies or some leaders are doing is, one, they have a daily huddle, a 15 minutes meeting each day with their team via Zoom or some technology. Secondly, they have one on one meetings with each person individually at least once a week or once a week, and then periodically, like once a quarter, they get everybody together face to face. Those are kind of the three that I've heard are being used quite often now. Some companies, as you know, are requiring people to come in two days a week or three days a week, that type of thing. But I don't know. Then you get some people coming in on Monday and Tuesday, other people coming in Thursday, Friday. So I don't know if that really gets you where you want to be.

Paul Thornton:
But anyway, some are doing that. It's not easy. But some of those techniques, the daily huddle, the one on ones, and the once a quarter get together as a full team, face to face, and have an all day meeting or half day meeting, that type of thing. I think those can be beneficial for reconnecting and also reminding people of the core values and our mission and strategy and all those types of things, and getting people to see each other and socialize and have some fun activities in the afternoon. That type of thing is good. So that's what I've heard.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. No, excellent, excellent ideas and suggestions for those who aren't doing that. Hopefully that will make a difference for other organizations as well. So, Paul, I would love to know what other projects and initiatives are you working on? What can we expect from you in the near future?

Paul Thornton:
Well, I just finished writing a book. I think it's a book, a topic that I don't see a lot out there on. And it's getting at the idea of leaders providing the right amount of what's needed. Now, let me explain. Let's take collaboration. You know, there's a lot of people saying collaboration is great and we should do it and it does wonders and all that. I agree. But too much collaboration is as bad as too little collaboration.

Paul Thornton:
So it's kind of figuring out what is the sweet spot or what is the right amount of collaboration. For example, I know one company, the employees were complaining that all they do is go to meetings. All they do is go to these collaboration events. They spend 80-90% of their time collaborating. And they said little is accomplished. It takes us forever to make decisions. And it was a great example of way, way, way too much collaboration. The other extreme, I heard of one company that employees were complaining that the manager, the leader, makes all the decisions.

Paul Thornton:
They never include us, they never ask us our opinion. We don't collaborate on anything, et cetera, et cetera. So finding that right balance, same idea for coaching. Some leaders over coach, they provide too much coaching or let's say monitoring performance. Too much monitoring is micromanagement. They're too into the weeds and watching every little thing the person does, that's bad. So this idea of what is the right on a spectrum of different things you could be doing, where should you be in this situation with this person? And it varies from situation to situation, but I think leaders need to do a more diagnosis or do a better job of figuring out what's the right amount of coaching or what's the right amount of monitoring or what's the right number of goals. I need all these different things to be high performing and highly successful.

Paul Thornton:
And I think a lot of times they where they should be. So that's kind of what I've been spending a lot of time on and interviewing people on it and getting thoughts and ideas on it. Examples of, like I say, people that are too far one way or the other. And what do you need to do to find that optimal spot? And a lot of it is trial and error. I mean, you may try something and it doesn't quite work and you got to back off a little bit. Maybe I'm over coaching sometimes. No, coaching is what you should be doing. Let the person figure it out for themselves.

Paul Thornton:
Don't jump in and start telling them what to do and how to solve the problem. Let them figure it out. Other times, if it's a safety issue or concern, you got to do immediately jump in and correct something so they don't get hurt or that type of thing. So, yeah, so that's what I'm working on. I really just finished the manuscript a few days ago, and it's going off to the publisher as we speak.

Jennifer Norman:
So wonderful.

Paul Thornton:
That's my latest project.

Jennifer Norman:
That sounds like it's going to be so helpful. And that feedback, I think that a lot of organizations are getting more used to 360 feedback where it's like, okay, start doing this, stop doing this, continue doing this. And so getting to that sweet spot, that Goldilocks spot, I think is going to be more helpful for those. Sometimes it's not easy to get to your point, to get to that Goldilocks spot. There might be obstacles in the way there, but ultimately finding a place where, whether it's by department or whether it's by the organization on a whole or individual to individual, because people like to be managed in different ways and so certainly can fluctuate at the macro or the micro level.

Paul Thornton:
Yeah, I think each individual is unique, each team is unique, each organization. So where you need to be on these various items varies from person to team to department. You know, so you gotta. I'll just mention one other thing that I think leaders need to do more of is diagnosing the situation, studying the current situation, what's going on, what's happening before they jump in with solutions. I think diagnostic skills. It's almost like you got to be like a doctor, diagnosing the situation before you decide, how can I add value? How can I help the team or individual? What would be most beneficial? Because sometimes we think we're helping, but we're really nothing. So that's an important characteristic or trait that leaders need to develop, I think, and get better at is diagnosing the environment, figuring out what's holding people back, what can I do to help them achieve at a higher level? What are the obstacles I can remove or what can I do? It's important.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. That which gets measured improves. I am so delighted. Paul Thornton, ladies and gentlemen. Please take a look at his existing books, leadership styles. The leadership process. Is your organization aligned? We'll look forward to your next book, which is coming out soon. But in the meantime, everybody take a look at his books.

Jennifer Norman:
And I'm just so delighted to have you on the show today to talk about the beauty of leadership. Self awareness is key, of course, and everyone has the potential to be a beautiful leader. Thank you very much, Paul, for being on The Human Beauty Movement Podcast today.

Paul Thornton:
Thank you, Jennifer, for having me. And I will say you have inner beauty, so you fit the show. You fit the podcast very well.

Jennifer Norman:
That's very kind of you. Thank you very much.

Paul Thornton:
Thank you.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you for listening to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Be sure to follow, rate and review us wherever you stream podcasts. The Human Beauty Movement is a community based platform that cultivates the beauty of humankind. Check out our workshops, find us on social media, and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more at thehumanbeautymovement.com. Thank you so much for being a beautiful human.