Stop People-Pleasing & Start Loving Yourself with Tina Hoang

Jennifer Norman:
Hello beautiful humans. Welcome to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast, your source for hope, healing, happiness and humanity. My name is Jennifer Norman. I'm the founder of The Human Beauty Movement and your host. This podcast is here to guide you on your journey of self love, empowerment, soul alignment and joy. With each episode, I invite beautiful humans from all corners of the globe to join me for open conversations about their life lessons and the important work that they are doing to help heal humankind. Take a moment now to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode. I'm so glad you're here, joining me for today's show.

Jennifer Norman:
Now, it wasn't that long ago when someone asked me to do something, I really had a hard time saying now. I wanted to be liked and seem like I could handle it all. But underneath it all, I didnt realize why I couldnt say no or what that impact would be. Eventually I found myself burned out, feeling exploited and resentful. But fortunately, I took the time to figure things out and change. My guest today, and I have this in common, were both recovering people pleasers. Tina Huang is a remarkable woman who hosts the courageous inner Beast podcast. Today, we're going to talk about the signs of people pleasing, how it personally impacted our lives, and ways to break the cycle of people pleasing.

Jennifer Norman:
After listening to today's show, you'll learn simple self awareness tips for understanding your people pleasing tendencies, common root causes of people pleasing and how it starts, cultural factors that can play a role in shaping behaviors and attitudes related to people pleasing, and self empowerment tools to end people pleasing for good. So with that, please give a warm welcome to my guest, Tina Hoang. Welcome, Tina.

Tina Hoang:
Thank you, Jennifer. Thank you for the introduction and just having me here. Your whole intro was like, yes, everything.

Jennifer Norman:
Honestly, that's how I felt when I first learned about you. I said to myself, oh yes, I must have you on the show because I love to spotlight people who live at the intersection of diversity, whether it be culture, gender or ability, and also greater wellbeing. And you, my friend, do just that. So I would love for you to share your story with our listeners so that they know all about you. Yes.

Tina Hoang:
So I grew up in California, the United States, and it was just right off the bat, I was born with a disability called cerebral palsy. I think that also became a contribution and factor of where I was becoming a people pleaser. You know, on top of that too, I was like literally eight months crawling. And my mom was like, okay, why is her right hand in the fist and crawling? And the other one is like, trying to grab and go. She's like, cause I'm trying to crawl, but you're supposed to use both hands like crab, right? But then my hand is curled. So that's how, like, my disability came about. And then once I grew older, too, is parents got divorced, my mom had. So we're Vietnamese, so there is, in our family, the women are the one in charge, the ones who are, like, the top dog.

Tina Hoang:
Like, they're the ones that's like, okay, this is gonna happen. This is gonna do this, gonna do that. We're gonna do this. And so in my mind, my mom also had a very strong Persona. She's a 4' 9" - 4' 10" woman, but you could hear her from a mile away, maybe 2 miles away that she's coming. Even though she has a small stature, you can see her about. So she had such a strong presence with herself that I felt I needed her to love me like, I needed her to just care for me, see me, let me be heard. I just wanted my mom's acceptance, and because since my parents were divorced, she was always working all the time.

Tina Hoang:
I just needed her to come through, like, hey, can we hang out? Can we spend time? But it was hard for her to do so. So I tried to do everything that I could. I'm the oldest, so out of two, I'm the oldest. So I felt I had to be obedient. I felt that I had to be. There was various words that she used in vietnamese that kind of boxed me in in a way. So there's like, certain words such as, lee. Lee is kind of like, you're so stubborn.

Tina Hoang:
You're still stubborn. That fine line of people pleasing, but you're also your true self in that. So when I become stubborn, I'm trying to get out of that people pleasing. And every time I say something that I want, it gets shuts down as regarding of where I want to go, what I don't want to do. Like, sometimes when my family wants to go out to go eat, I'm like, I want to stay home. No, you have to go. And when I share my own opinion, speaking my mind, it shut down constantly. And then realizing that I don't feel like I'm loved once, I keep speaking my mind.

Tina Hoang:
So I tell myself, okay, to be safe. To be loved is to stay quiet, to just move forward with, to exist for my family, to exist for the other people in my life, my friends, only for me, just to be loved and to be liked and just to be someone, to really be my friend. To stay. Keep me as their friend is to stay quiet.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Tina Hoang:
Be small and then just. I don't even know why. I'm, like, I shared the story a few times already. I'm, like, tearing up, thinking about it and sharing it right now, too.

Jennifer Norman:
It's emotional. It's totally understandable because these roots run deep. I mean, you were talking about when you were eight months old as a child and you had a disability, and all of a sudden it's like, well, you wanted to almost overcompensate in a certain way for certain things. And when we try to be authentic, it's almost not seen as we feel that it's not good enough or we're not supposed to be that way. We're supposed to do something different. We're supposed to be there to be a good reflection on our parents and to make sure that we feel loved and accepted and by doing things that please others. People pleasing. Hello.

Jennifer Norman:
This is, like, you know, this is the start of it.

Jennifer Norman:
You know, these are the things that are entrained in us at a very early age, and it's insane. It's something that we don't realize has caused us to move away from how we want to be, what our true souls are yearning for, because we just haven't even figured out a way to even be that way.

Tina Hoang:
Yeah. And the whole process of that was, wait, so how long have you were experiencing people pleasing, too?

Jennifer Norman:
I find so many similarities in our stories, but in, of course, very different ways in that when I was younger in my household, it was kind of like, do as you're told. Children are to be seen and not heard. It was also. There was just something inherent in me. And I don't think that it was necessarily my adoptive parents that brought this out, but there was some sort of inherent perfectionism or drive or motivation to succeed and to achieve and to just go, go, go. And so I found myself overdoing it a lot. Like, if I was doing art, I would spend all night painting because I just wanted to make sure my painting was perfect for the class the next day. No one really cared, but it was just like, to me, it was like, this was just like, it was so important.

Jennifer Norman:
And I also felt like I was a dancer. And I loved the accolades. I loved when my mom would boast to her friends, oh, Jenny, you did this recital. And she was, to me, that was like, oh, I did a good job, and so I'm going to perform. So it almost became performative. Like, I'm going to do this act and it becomes conditional. It's almost like we're training ourselves towards conditional love or conditional favor when we people. Please, don't we? And, yeah, I think it's a good time.

Jennifer Norman:
Why don't we talk about. Because I'm sure that a lot of people are like, well, how do I know if I'm a people pleaser? I've heard of this before. I might be a people pleaser or no, but maybe I'm just trying to be a nice person.

Tina Hoang:
Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Norman:
I know. Maybe I'm just trying to be polite, but these are some questions to ask yourself, I think, to know if you have people pleasing tendencies. Okay, so, number one, do you often say yes to requests or obligations, even when you don't want to or it's not in your best interest? Okay, Tina and I are raising our hands. Yes, yes, yes. Number two, do you prioritize other people's needs and desires over your own, sometimes to the detriment of your own well being? Does that sound familiar to you? Yes, yes. Number three, are you afraid of conflict or confrontation, and do you go out of your way to avoid conflict? That one, I was kind of like, maybe, but I know that there are a lot of people that are peacekeepers. They just don't. It's like, okay, we'll make you happy no matter what, and I just don't want to have an argument over this.

Jennifer Norman:
Right.

Tina Hoang:
That is 100% me. Like, people consider me a peacekeeper all the time.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. There's so many people that are just like, all right, I'll go out of my way just to avoid a conflict. Okay, so, number four, do you have difficulty setting boundaries. Boundaries with others or saying no when necessary? Oh, my gosh, yes.

Tina Hoang:
Hell yes.

Jennifer Norman:
Yes.

Tina Hoang:
Hell, yeah. No, 100%.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, I have some really crazy stories of, like, oh, it's like, oh, gosh, I really don't want to go out on a date with this dude, but I feel like I have to, you know? It's like, come on. Like, narrow boundaries. It's like, oh, my God, you know, he bought me dinner, so maybe I do have to go home with him...

Tina Hoang:
You're forced to, like, be with this person because, like, obligation.

Jennifer Norman:
No, you don't have to.

Tina Hoang:
You don't have to.

Jennifer Norman:
All right, number five, do you frequently seek validation and approval from others to feel good about yourself? That one is.

Tina Hoang:
Hell, yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
That one's a siren. That one is like, yes.

Tina Hoang:
It's like an ambulance coming through my brain. Like, hell, yeah. That is what.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, that's exactly what it's like, all right. And number six, do you feel guilty or anxious when you assert yourself or prioritize your own needs? Yeah, because all the time we're not used to it. Right. We don't feel like it's comfortable for us to be like, okay, well, this is what I want. Number seven, do you find yourself constantly trying to please others to gain their approval, even at the expense of your own happiness? That kind of goes along with a lot of the other ones. Number eight, do you have a hard time expressing your true thoughts, feelings and opinions in fear of upsetting or disappointing others? Yeah, yeah. A lot of times, especially if you're told that you don't like your opinion. Doesn't matter.

Jennifer Norman:
A lot of people have been taught, like, no one wants to hear what you have to say. Right?

Tina Hoang:
No. Like, you don't even have to say that your opinion doesn't matter. Like, if someone is shutting me down by just. It's like telling me, like, what I say I don't matter. What I do is what, I don't matter.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, yeah. And it can be, it doesn't even have to be verbal, right? It can be just like, you just know that they're not listening and that unto itself is a cue that what you're saying doesn't matter or even just.

Tina Hoang:
Interrupting you while you're talking. Then they talk about their own opinion.

Jennifer Norman:
Basically, all they want to do is interject their own opinion. Okay. Number nine, do you feel resentful or frustrated when others don't reciprocate your efforts to please them?

Tina Hoang:
Yes. Fuck, yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
It feels depleting. Right. And then ten. Yeah. Do you struggle with feelings of low self worth or inadequacy? And do you believe that your value depends on others opinions of you? So, so much.

Tina Hoang:
I always value theirs first.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. Yeah. So this is important because, number one, we're going through these questions, and the more times that you say yes than no, then sure, you've got people pleasing tendencies. We're just putting it out in the open, letting everybody know. It's like, congratulations. Now that we're aware of the issue, it's our first step on the road of recovery. So from now on, we're going to notice what we notice, right? We're going to practice saying no more. We're going to practice saying, like, am I really doing this because I want to do it or because I'm looking for validation or because I really want to win the approval of somebody else? It's like, get into the habit of knowing when your life becomes transactional rather than you wanting to do it because you love doing, you are really just energetically putting your heart and soul in it.

Jennifer Norman:
And it's something that really fills your cup. If you're doing something and it depletes you, you're feeling resentful, you're feeling like a martyrdeh. That's when you know you're doing something that is more leaning towards people pleasing tendencies and it's not healthy. So I am curious, Tina, what did you do when you figured all this stuff out about yourself? And then you were like, I think that I need to change or else this is not going to end very well for me.

Tina Hoang:
Yeah, well, first off, when you went through the questions, I said yes to every single one from one to ten. I was like, this is all me. So I was like, this is like, to, you don't know that to the full capacity, but I've done every single one of those or felt or just to be in that moment. But yeah, so like, how it all, like, really the epitome of like, where it started to like, change for me was right before COVID I was dating someone at the time and I was like head over heels for this person. And eventually it didn't work out. But the last moments of our relationship, I was curious of like, why my low self esteem was asking, why don't you want to be with me? Like, you know, just, you know, those kind of questions, like, why don't you like me? Or whatever it is.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Tina Hoang:
Then he said, well, Tina, your passivity was unattractive.

Jennifer Norman:
Interesting.

Tina Hoang:
Yeah, like, because, I mean, now looking back, I understand where it came from because every time he asked me, where do you want to go eat? What do you want to do? I said, oh, I don't know. What do you want to do? Because literally I don't, I'm not thinking about myself. If I say something about myself, he may not like it, he may not. He will disapprove or whatever it is, so. But really he wanted my own opinion of it. But of course, I never developed that. I was, I grew up in a people pleasing world, like, pleasing every single person. So when he told me why it was unattractive, I went down to a downward spiral.

Tina Hoang:
Not too far down, but really evaluating what's going on. Like, because I knew I didn't want to be passive anymore, but just that thought of, I don't know what to do, I need help. I don't know. I was stuck.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow.

Tina Hoang:
So right after the fact, I asked people around me, am I passive? Am I passive, like many friends, and they all said, yes.

Tina Hoang:
I'm like, shit. Okay, okay, okay. So the process of that was, I sat with it, and I had two decisions. Agree with everyone that I am passive, and this is who I am. This is what I've always been. This is why I exist. To just continue pleasing people, to always put myself in the back, always. Right? Or the second question. The second option was, no, I can change this.

Tina Hoang:
I can be better for myself. This is what I want to choose and be who I want to be. And so my first action that I did was on New Year's Eve. You're always with people. You're hanging out with friends, with family, celebrating the new year. My first decision on that was to celebrate it by myself with my dog saying no to everyone that, who wants to hang out, because I'm finally deciding that I can choose to do something else rather than following the crowd all the time. And I remember sitting there waiting for the fireworks to come up, the new year coming up. And the first few things I said to myself was, I am so proud of you, Tina.

Tina Hoang:
I'm so proud of you. I love you.

Jennifer Norman:
Aw, Tina, you're making me cry.

Tina Hoang:
And I cried. I cried so much. I cried a lot. Because at that time, she didn't believe herself at all. And I think even, like, now, too, like, just going back to her, it's crazy. And that was, like, five years ago.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Tina Hoang:
And that was just, like, the start of it. Telling. Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow. So that dude kind of did you a favor. It's a hard thing to face, but he was honest in his assessment of being able to say, you know what? Not that he had to use the words unattractive, I mean, shit.

Tina Hoang:
But, oh, no, he did say that.

Jennifer Norman:
Or, yeah, I mean, just, like, really bold faced, saying, like, the passivity. It's a problem for me, he is saying. But more than anything, it might be a problem for you because you don't seem like you're okay with yourself. And I think that there was something. There's always something that, you know, people can sense about other people, and people will prey on that or they'll be like, I really am looking for somebody that's more of a partner, that's more of an equal, that has the ability to kind of stand up for themselves. And so in that moment, you always have a choice. I love that you said that I could do. You know, I had two decisions.

Jennifer Norman:
I had a choice. I could go this way or I could go that way because it is as clear as that I think a lot of times we muddy it up in our own heads, but it's kind of like a lot of people are like, oh, well, what choice do I have? I've been this way all of my life, and I'm not going to change now, or this is how it has to be because everybody expects this of me. And so you are making a choice that it is serving you to continue on that path that you're on, and you'll continue to complain about it until the cows come home. Or you can do something about it. You can change, and it's not easy, but it is a road which could be very worth it. That road of empowerment, of getting to know yourself more, is worth it. And it's true. Sometimes it takes getting away from everybody else, getting away from.

Jennifer Norman:
Good Lord. I really am not a fan of New Year's celebrations. I feel like it's forced joviality to begin with. And so sometimes the best thing is like, okay, I'm gonna just, like, watch the ball drop 09:00 west coast time and go to. To bed. You know, it's like, you know, I just want to be my message. But you're spending time with yourself. You're spending time getting to know you again and what it is that you really want and what you really need to restore and refill your own cup.

Jennifer Norman:
And that is a brilliant first set of steps.

Tina Hoang:
Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow.

Tina Hoang:
It was really amazing to just have that realization. Starting off, I was, like, so angry.

Jennifer Norman:
Of course.

Tina Hoang:
I was like, why would he say that? Why would he do that? But eventually, I am so thankful he did that because it was a wake up call, because I knew my true self was gnawing at the door to, like, come on, like, get out. Like, we don't want to be here anymore. Thankfully, he cracked that door open so that I can finally, like, get out and then still struggling now because, you know, we're ingrained childhood memories, our childhood experience and behaviors. It stays there, but now we can finally get out of it and do our own shit.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, I was raised by a mom who was also so strong. I mean, everybody. All the women in my family wear the pants. It's like the matriarchy and stuff. At least there was that I had very strong role models. All the women, like, would wipe the floor with the men.

Jennifer Norman:
Not that I think that that's right or anything, but I never really felt so held back by the fact that I was a woman, which is wonderful. Many other reasons, but not that. But my mom was the commensurate people pleaser. I mean, she martyred herself for everyone, for her children, for her, like, just, she would go to the nth degree, like the most compassionate, kind hearted women. And to her, it was, it was being polite. It was that was what a mom was supposed to do, but kind of left her a bit bitter in many cases. But it's something that I had learned that I need to take on and bite off more than I can chew.

Jennifer Norman:
I just need to keep go, go, go at going. I remember there was this one day when I went to grad school, and I would take on all these extra projects. I would do this, I would do that. I was the president of the graduate marketing association, and somebody literally sat back and looked at me and was like, jen, you can say no, you don't have to say yes. And it was unheard of for me. I was like, at the time, I was like, what do you mean, say no? I'm not gonna say no. You know, it's like the craziest thing.

Tina Hoang:
I know the craziest thing. It's like why I have to say yes to everything. If not, like, what if they won't like me anymore? What if they don't want to be my friend anymore? And that's how I view things. Was that really?

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. So if we can practice saying no more, and if we can make light of it, make a game, it doesn't have to be awkward. We don't have to be like, okay, cousin Joe wants me to do this, and I don't know what to say to him. I mean, just get in the habit of setting these boundaries, prioritizing your own self care, cultivating that greater assertiveness and authenticity in your interactions with others, and recognizing the core essence, the core reasons why we become people pleasers. If we think about it, approval seeking. People pleasers want to get validation and approval from others as a way to feel accepted and like, might fear rejection or disapproval. So they're going to go out of their way to please others in hopes of gaining acceptance or approval. Low self esteem.

Jennifer Norman:
People who do not feel that they have a high self worth are going to think that their worth depends on other people's opinions of them. And so this is compensatory behavior they're doing. The people pleasing should make up for those feelings of inadequacy to boost their own self esteem through external validation. Avoidance of conflict. We talked about going to great length of trying to avoid confrontation, even at the expense of their own needs and desires. The, the desire to maintain harmony, above all could lead to people pleasing many of us. It's like the fear of rejection, feeling like, oh, if I don't do this, then they're not going to like me. If I express my true thoughts or feelings, then they're just going to abandon me.

Jennifer Norman:
They're not going to want to be around me, so I'm just going to comply and just go along with their wishes. There is cultural and social conditioning too. There are certain cultures where there is this emphasis on putting other people's needs before their own. And it's like being polite, being accommodating, being agreeable. Those things can just seep into the. The way that we behave and further reinforce people pleasing tendencies. Do we feel guilty?

Tina Hoang:
I think it's also kind of like just pinpointing on that. I think it's also like being a community. Regarding your last point, that's why we put ourselves in the back, because we should always look out for others. Cause as a community as a whole, we are a group. You're not yourself in the cultural aspects of ors. Of course.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. Because it's seen as selfish.

Tina Hoang:
Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
Always think about other people before yourselves. Put other people before yourself. And that was. It's very noble. It's a very noble thought. It's a very noble way of living to think that you're going to be in service to others. But if you deplete yourself and wreck yourself to serve others, what good is that doing? You're not putting your oxygen mask on first. You're just going to die trying to save other people.

Jennifer Norman:
So it's kind of a futile thing. Make sure that you're filling your own cup first and that you've got enough overflow to give to others. Yeah. And then as far as that community goes, there is this sense like obligation and guilt. It's like, oh, I feel guilty if I don't help them. Oh, why do I have so much? If I wasn't meant to give to other people, I may as well do it. And you're not doing it from a place where you're love. It's a sense of, like, obligation, of, yeah, I need to do this because it's expected of me.

Jennifer Norman:
It's not really done out of just.

Tina Hoang:
Like this abundance of you're the older sibling or like, you're the older. However, it is like there's a certain role that you play within the society or the community that you don't do this. Yes. All the expectations.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. And then of course, we talk about difficulty, saying no. And then perfectionism. Perfectionism is a huge one when it comes to just feeling like you just have to do it all. You have to be the perfect mom, you have to be the perfect wife, you have to be the perfect girlfriend. And so you're just going to be like, whatever you want, my dear. Whatever you want, I'm here. Just service.

Jennifer Norman:
Service. When it really gets down to the point where you lose sight of who you are, what you love, what you're about, and all of those things that really make you an authentic human being.

Tina Hoang:
Yeah, I just feel like in that case, like you're just, you are existing in life. Literally. You're just existing. You're not living, you're what you do. Whatever. Put that out the door.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Tina Hoang:
Everyone else is more important right in the forefront. And that's why we are only existing for that. And it just feels so sad, I that I mean, now feeling empowered now to not be in that space anymore. But looking back, sometimes I grieve for her when she was in that space, living day to day, minute to minute, not thinking about her, because no one loved her, so why she should care about herself.

Jennifer Norman:
And sometimes that's it, too, is like we just don't feel like we were loved. There's like some sort of. Just a sense of loss and a sense of grief. When we think back on the little girl that we were, and I know that you've done some beautiful performative art where you talk the open letter to your mom, which I watched last night, and I was just like, I felt so strongly because you were yearning for the love of that little girl that you never really got from the mom who was taking care of you or was intending to take care of you as a child. And the things that you missed about that and what you were hoping to, the beautiful thing is that that story is not over. The story continues. And you can be that for so many other people, you can be that for yourself. And so I would love for you to share now that you've gone on this journey.

Jennifer Norman:
So that was five years ago and you've started the podcast, you're doing other work. Please tell us some of the other steps that you continue to take, because this is a lifelong journey. Of course. It's never over. Yeah, yeah. I mean, tell us what kind of got into your regular days in terms of trying to break that cycle of people pleasing.

Tina Hoang:
Right now I'm also, like, journaling still. I'm also tapping into my inner child too, because that is where it derived from the people pleasing once I figure out, like, listen to her. Like, now I literally have a dialogue with my inner side. My tiny Tina, that's my name, short, so cute. So I do, like, an upkeep with her. She comes up quite often, every single day. And so how I just keep moving with the steps and the daily check in with her is when she brings out and her anxiety comes up. I just have a chat with her.

Tina Hoang:
I say, hey, I see you. What's up? I see that you're having anxious anxiety right now. Want to talk about it? And I just have an internal dialogue. And then sometimes I physically would hug myself, hold hands, hold my hand, because I would imagine my left, my right hand is my disability. So I would see her as the younger self. So I just, like, hold her and just, like, hold her like, I'm here. Wow, you're safe. And, like, because she still has, like, my younger self, tiny Tina, she is 15.

Jennifer Norman:
Okay.

Tina Hoang:
Somehow it stunted at that age. I don't know why, but it's there. She's there at that age. So whenever she comes up, I just remind at that age, 15, she's still people pleasing, like, heavily, very heavily, okay. At that age. So I would. Whenever she comes up, I just give her so much affirmations, positive comfort. Like, I'm the parent with her, and I just literally, whenever she comes, I just have a dialogue with her.

Tina Hoang:
That's the steps I take on a daily basis when she comes up and when she's calmed down and it's like, okay, you can hang out now. And then I do my thing, my present self, do my thing, because that's where my low self esteem comes up to. And so it's just a very soothing, constant dialogue with her, knowing that she is safe, she is loved. She is loved by me. Like, she doesn't need to be loved by anyone else right now, just by me. And I will always love her. Love her to my heart, love her to just. She is deserving as how she is at that age.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow. And you mentioned that before on that New Year's Day, or that new year's where you just stopped and you said, I love you, Tina. And that is so powerful. How many of us do that? I don't know when the last time was that I said to myself, I love you. Like, I would say, like, oh, the person that I've become grown to love a lot of the things about me. But I would love to take this opportunity right now for our listeners to just have a pause. You're listening to this podcast because you're interested in your own self development, your personal development, your own wellbeing. And so that is to be congratulated.

Jennifer Norman:
And you're doing it because it's an act of love. It's an act of self love. So take this moment right now to tell yourself, whatever your name is, I love you. I'm here for you. I got you. I'm not gonna say this shit about you anymore.

Tina Hoang:
Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
I'm not gonna say bad things about you, and I'm not gonna criticize you, and I'm not gonna judge you. I'm just gonna love you no matter what. I'm here for you.

Tina Hoang:
Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
How powerful is that?

Tina Hoang:
It is so powerful, because the more we give love, you know, self love, like, the more you give love to yourself, you're able to genuinely and authentically give love to other people.

Jennifer Norman:
Mm hmm. It is. Now, it is one thing, on one hand to be a people pleaser, and it is, on the other hand, something completely different. To actually be a courageous badass, just like. And it's not like they're mutually exclusive either, certainly. But you've now started a podcast where you have these conversations about courage and courageousness and empowerment, especially for women who have felt marginalized or overlooked in society. Tell me, what was the impetus for that? And how is that embarking upon your continued journey away from people pleasing and into coming into your own?

Tina Hoang:
Well, it started. Well. It is a personal drive. I did it because of it for myself, too, because I grew up in fear. And as a people pleaser, too. You're always in fear of what is. Fear of everything. Fear, failure, fear of disappointing other people.

Tina Hoang:
Fear of, like, people don't love you. Not accepted. The fear of so many things.

Jennifer Norman:
If you're Catholic, like me, like, when I grew up Catholic, the fear of going to hell.

Tina Hoang:
Yes. Yeah, I grew up Catholic, too. And then, like, you have to go to church, and then if you don't do something right, you're sinful.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Tina Hoang:
And so, yeah, so, like, that's how it started with. Mine is with the podcast is just shedding out of all the fear I always have and just do it. Just like, fuck it, I'm just gonna do it and share my stories, how it is doing things that I'm always scared of doing because I might disappoint people. Some people may not love me. Like me. Yeah. Like, that's literally the things that. It's so close to my heart, and I just get angry with it all the time.

Tina Hoang:
Which, by the way, being angry is amazing because when you're angry that you have these things, it means that you want to change, you want to be better. So that's also. Just want to know on that, too is like, when you're angry, it's like, yeah, you want to make like something's seeming and boiling in there. You're like, I'm ready to move out of this, get out of this feeling. And so that's where, like, kind of where it came from is the badass of having women come on as guests and just shed that light for themselves too. Not just for the listeners, but for them to really share their story that they were scared to share to anyone in their life, but even now, even to the world. So. And that's what I want to give space for women like that where hold space for them.

Tina Hoang:
Like, yeah, fucking share your story. Like, I'm here. I'm all here for it. I just want to give that space for you. You deserve to be heard. You deserve to be seen on the stories that you grew up with. And I just want you to be real and authentic with it.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, it's funny because you have a motto which is, regardless of our fear, we need to say fuck it and do it anyways. So I say, yeah, yes, queen, yes, do it. It's incredibly powerful. So I want to hear some other examples of things that you've said. Fuck it, I'm going to do it anyways. And just went for it. Can you give us some fun examples?

Tina Hoang:
Well, I mean, there's some things I think I. Well, one, starting the podcast, like, I was always doing, like, really scared of doing it. I also like, fuck it, I'm gonna do it anyways is awesome. Speaking on stage, that was like, the one thing, like, I love doing, but I was like. And also sharing that particular story on stage. That was the one story that I wanted be the first one. I was so scared because I was like, what if my mom would hear this one day? Like, she will, like, get so mad or, like, embarrassed. She'll shame me.

Tina Hoang:
All the negative feelings came on to me for that. So, like, that was one story that I was like, okay, you know what, Tina? Just shut. To tell her to, like, so much anxiety. I was like, shh, okay, you're good. And it's like, okay, fine. Because she's also stubborn. 15 years old, like teenager, so you're very stubborn. So sometimes I would be like, telling her, okay, just hang out.

Tina Hoang:
Let me do what I want to do. So that's like another story. Another one also with, like, moving out of the. I used to live in the Bay area, so I would. I had to leave house there the whole time, and I just was comfortable with it also. And then I think also another, like, fuck it moment for me was, I have so many. I'm just trying to rummage it through my brain right now. I think taking that step of doing the hard things, just like, I don't have anything in specific, but the things that I get so scared.

Tina Hoang:
I get, like, so much anxiety that I tend to avoid, but sometimes I just have to tell myself, Tina, just sit down. You're okay. Take it one step at a time. I think that's how I'm able to say, fuck it, I'm gonna do it anyways. Because I'm able to make sure that I break it down first before I get overwhelmed. Like, let's just do it for two minutes. Just do it like you're so, so much anxiety. I say, okay, just do it for two minutes.

Tina Hoang:
I'm like, fuck, okay, fine, fuck it. I'm just gonna do it for two minutes. Only two minutes. And then I feel good. And I was like, okay, let's do another two minutes after that, and then another two minutes. And so just, like, a lot of things that I do, like, I'm just scared to do the hard things. Literally just scared to do the hard things of anything.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. And a lot of times we don't even realize that we're doing it because we had been living in fear. We don't realize how much of our action is, like, to avoid something rather than because we're loving something. It's like, I want to do this because I want to avoid my mom getting mad at me or my dad getting mad at me or my partner thinking this of me or my boss thinking that of me. And when you're able to kind of see it for what it is and say, you know what, I'm going to do things that frighten the shit out of me. I'm going to do things that scare the hell out of me. And it could be as small as I'm going to wear something different today, or it could be as huge as saying I'm coming out, or it could be so many different things. And those are so brave and to be congratulated when you're able to recognize that you don't have to live in fear.

Jennifer Norman:
You can live in love for life, for the people that are around you, but most importantly, for yourself. For me, I actually found that if I were to step out and be a bit more courageous from a physical, mental and spiritual standpoint, those were, like, the trifecta for me. And so, like, from a physical, I went through this crazy phase where I, like, dyed my hair platinum blonde. I went skydiving, I went gliding, I went cliff jumping. Like, I started doing, like, daredevil things because I was like, if I can do this, then I can do anything. Like, it was almost like that mental hurdle of if I can get my body to do this and just like, go for it and jump out of a plane. I felt like that was a big step. And then from the other perspective, is like starting a podcast actually speaking out loud.

Jennifer Norman:
I remember the day when I sent a text to all of my siblings that was, I want you to know that I'm going to be sharing my story publicly. I am not asking for permission. I'm just letting you know this because I could hear in the background, like, oh, my God, she's going to bring shame on our family. She's going to showcase all of these things that have happened in our background. There's, like, fear, fear, fear, fear, fear. Like, shame, shame, shame, shame. I was like, I don't care because we're only as sick as our secrets. It's like we have to be okay with being vulnerable, sharing our story, and then it's, poof.

Jennifer Norman:
It's out there. It can't bite us in the ass anymore. It can't harm us anymore. Once you're okay with sharing your story, beautiful. And then from a spiritual perspective, it's like, knowing that there's something more for us really helps us to also get over the fear. It's like, it's like if you have a drink with the grandmother or psilocybin, if you need to have these experience to kind of, like, get yourself out of, like, the mundanity of this physical 3D world, it's like, open your heart, open your mind, open your spirit and soul to understand that it's not just about them, it's not just about you. It's about the universe. And that, you know, we're meant to shine.

Jennifer Norman:
We're meant to be more than what we cookie cutter box fit ourselves to be. And our energy wants to soar. It wants to be big. It wants. Wants to be released and benefit yourself so that your heart is just feeling fulfilled, so that your mind is feeling fulfilled. Everything about you is feeling like you're just so enthusiastic and excited for life rather than dreading it.

Tina Hoang:
Yeah, no, I totally agree with all that. It's the trifecta for yours. Yeah. Like, you know, making these small decisions for yourself, just get yourself out there and be more courageous. Even as you were saying, with doing all the daredevil things for me, it doesn't scare me. So that's why I was like, it's not in my. I do all of them. I'm like, yes, let's go do some more of it.

Tina Hoang:
I don't mind it.

Jennifer Norman:
I was just like, I did that every day.

Tina Hoang:
I wish I could, but yes, I would. I think one of the things, I realized it now, too, as you are saying, too, is sharing my feelings. I think that's when I was like, you were sharing yours. I think one of the. One of the bravest things I could do for me is even out of fear, is sharing my feelings when I don't like something, sharing something, if someone says something I didn't like or hurt my feelings, sharing my feelings in a most productive way about it, but not sharing that because I matter and I don't want them to do it again afterwards. That's amazing. That scared me.

Jennifer Norman:
And it's good to be able to recognize that, too. For so long, I can identify with this feeling of, like, I don't know how I feel. I don't even know how to articulate it. It's like, I don't even know what, what I'm feeling right now, like. And so being able to get to the point where it's like, I don't like that and I'm not for that, or I have an opinion against that, or, yeah, such and such is, yeah, that's really powerful. Do that more often. Everyone, you share your feelings.

Tina Hoang:
I know. Do it more often. Share your feelings, of course. In the most productive way, of course, but also the day of diamonds. Share your feelings because you matter and what you say is important.

Jennifer Norman:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, my goodness. Well, Tina, it was such a wonderful opportunity to have you on this show. Beautiful humans, this is Tina Huang. She is the host of the courageous inner Beast podcast. Give it a listen. Tina, thank you so much for joining me for this very important conversation today.

Jennifer Norman:
It was an honor to have you.

Tina Hoang:
Thank you for having me here, Jennifer. I really appreciate it, and I love our conversation.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you for listening to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Be sure to follow, rate and review us wherever you stream podcasts. The Human Beauty Movement is a community based platform that cultivates the beauty of humankind. Check out our workshops, find us on social media, and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more at thehumanbeautymovement.com. Thank you so much for being a beautiful human.