Lessons of a Female Entrepreneur with Denise Love Hewett

Episode 125 - Denise Love Hewett (Audio)Jennifer Norman:
Hello, beautiful humans. Welcome to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast, your source for hope, healing, happiness and humanity. My name is Jennifer Norman. I'm the founder of The Human Beauty Movement and your host. This podcast is here to guide you on your journey of self love, empowerment, soul alignment and joy. With each episode, I invite beautiful humans from all corners of the globe to join me for open conversations about their life lessons and the important work that they are doing to help heal humankind. Take a moment now to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode. I'm so glad you're here, joining me for today's show.

Jennifer Norman:
Now I am so thrilled to be hosting a remarkable individual whose journey spans the realms of entrepreneurship, entertainment and spirituality. Denise Love Hewett is not just a celebrity DJ, podcast host and public speaker, but she's also a catalyst for change in redefining leadership and fostering inclusivity in traditionally exclusive spaces. With her podcast, Do The Work, Denise invites us into a world where business meets spirituality, where resilience meets professional heartbreak, and where inequity meets sustainable success. Denise's background as a television and digital producer, coupled with her experiences in the startup world, has equipped her with a unique perspective on leadership and creativity. By tuning in today, you will not only gain valuable insights into resilience and overcoming professional setbacks, but you'll also discover actionable strategies for fostering inclusivity and equity in your own spheres of influence. Whether you're a budding entrepreneur, a seasoned executive, or simply someone seeking inspiration and wisdom, this episode promises to offer rich guidance and transformative perspectives. So without further ado, I want to welcome my guest to the show, Denise Love Hewiet. Welcome to the show, Denise.

Denise Love Hewett:
Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Jennifer Norman:
Hi there! And everybody, she's got a dog, so if you hear a bark, that's her dog. What's your dog's name?

Denise Love Hewett:
Tokyo.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, beautiful name, Tokyo. Well, we'll welcome Tokyo to the show as well. Now, I would love for you to share with the audience. You've had quite a journey. You've done television and digital production, you've been a startup founder, and now you're an awesome podcast host who, man, your show Do The Work is just phenomenal. And so I would love to hear how all of your experiences over the years have shaped your views. Like a lot of people wouldn't think about leadership going with spirituality, but now it's actually becoming a little bit more accepted. Let's talk about how that came to be for you.

Denise Love Hewett:
Yeah, I think I started my career very laser focused, I guess, is the best way to put it. I was very precise and exact in building the life that I wanted to for myself. And I really believed that if I followed the blueprint that the world told me to, that it would net me the success and money and all these things that I sort of sought. And in my journey of getting the jobs I wanted, having these experiences, I started to see, like, the truth when you look behind the curtain. And a lot of the experiences weren't what they were sold to me as. And I started to see, for example, when I worked in corporate Hollywood, a lot of the structures were about managing up and not really managing down. And so what happened was you created these environments where we sort of lost sight of the point, which is we're here to serve an audience, and we're here to create content that moves and predicts culture. And we became a very reactive organism, which for me was not what I signed up to do.

Denise Love Hewett:
I signed up to work in entertainment because I wanted to impact culture in a meaningful way. And that sort of persisted, which is these toxic corporate cultures actually impede the product. So often. Like as right now, we've seen, we have a lot of franchise fatigue. We have reboot after reboot, but that's not necessarily producing the highest amount of economic returns yet. We're very. We're too afraid to take a chances are risks on original properties. So we're sort of in this, like, weird place in entertainment where the market is shrinking, but we're not taking risks to see if actually we can create more upside.

Denise Love Hewett:
So we're sort of in a holding pattern. And me witnessing sort of some of these behaviors was really disheartening because I thought there was a better way to do it, which is a lot of why when I left corporate Hollywood, I started my own company, because I said, hey, there's a way for us to sort of future proof this business, give ourselves better tools so we can actually create more economic return while creating more space for new voices and new original properties. And in the process of me raising money or trying to raise money for my company, I saw the other side, which is that I felt there was all this, these issues in entertainment, in Hollywood. But I didn't realize that I was trying to fix one business while walking into a different industry sector, venture capital, trying to raise money for my company, and realizing that venture capital was worse than Hollywood, only. So it was like, it was when you talk about, how did I get to a place where I believe that spirituality, as in intertwined with business is because I was on a spiritual journey. There is no way that I didn't experience these scenes in succession because I was uncovering a greater truth for myself. And ultimately, which now informs the work that I do.

Denise Love Hewett:
But with venture capital, I think most people are probably familiar with statistics. But if you're not, only 2% of venture capital goes to women, and that number has not changed in eight years. If generational wealth predominantly comes from the ability to build your own business and IPO that business or get that business acquired, and 98% of the opportunity is going to white men, then we've created a system that only rewards one person to receive generational wealth. And so now facing that level of inequity, and I'm just a white woman, right? So compound that if you're a woman of color or a person of color, I realized that we have a lot more work to do and that this capitalistic structure that we have purported is a meritocracy is nothing. And we need to create more space for more people, and we also need to create more opportunities for wealth generation. And so I took a step back because I had to eventually shut down my company because we could not raise the funding we needed to continue. And it was heartbreaking on a lot of levels. But one of the things was that I believed that I was the exception to the rule and that I could achieve anything if I just worked hard enough.

Denise Love Hewett:
And I realized that wasn't true. And in the process of figuring out what I wanted to do next, I realize that I have to figure out how to create change in a way that doesn't deplete myself. That's not the expense of myself, and that is generative. And so those are the questions I ask now, which are all spiritual questions, which is, we're not here as humans to just do do. We're here to live in our divine purpose and our gifts, and then money is a byproduct of that. But the world we live in doesn't allow us all to live in our unique genius. So my goal is, how do we get us to our unique genius so we can all be the best, most thriving versions of ourselves?

Jennifer Norman:
Unique genius. Ladies and gentlemen, I want everybody to know that, first of all, I met Denise at an International Women's Day gathering in this beautiful space, which a lot of people have been at, The Phil. It's the Disney Hall in Downtown LA. And Denise was talking to everyone about failure, frankly, and being okay with failing. I love that Denise is so open and honest about her experience because I think that everybody can relate to having just a crushing blow happen, whether it be career wise or personal wise, and how hard it is in terms of a road that we have ahead of ourselves when it comes to business.

Jennifer Norman:
By the way, I think that your idea was brilliant. I just want to caveat that and say, like, the idea of being able to democratize scriptwriting and screenplays and all of that for Hollywood is such a noble idea. And I don't think it's dead. I mean, I think that it's a wonderful idea, and it's just proof about how hard it can be for women to be believed, to be credible, to be seen as deserving a place at the table. And then also for people of color like myself, yellow people, brown people, black people, like, it's really one of those things where there are these obstacles that are in the way because of the way that people are used to doing business. Now, when we talk about spirituality, we open up this door. It's almost like we're coming out to this place where we say, okay, if I'm chasing something, I'm not leading it. If I'm really not being true to myself. And I'm doing it because I want to have the job, the position.

Jennifer Norman:
We have to have that real open conversation with ourselves about, why am I doing this? Like, is it feeding my soul? Is it feeding my energy? Am I really doing this because it's something that I love? Or is it because it's something that other people expect of me? And starting there, I think, is so beautiful. And Denise has these rich conversations about what it means to be genuine, to be authentic, and to live from a place of joy and from a place of your soul identity, rather than trying to pigeonhole yourself into these places. But yet also, once you do come to the place where you have a better understanding of yourself, then from there, are you much more capable to living out and manifesting that life and that leadership and developing your own path to happiness and whatever you would define success as.

Denise Love Hewett:
And it's hard. That's the thing. To live a life in which you can be your fullest self in the work that you do is hard. And it takes a lot of boundary setting, frankly, because I have conversations all the time where people are like, well, you know, you have to put that hat on at work, but you don't have to be that person at home. And it's like, well, if I'm this person five days a week, 40 hours a week, is it that easy for me to context switch all the time and people of color talk about this a lot, like code switching at work. And there's a tax to not being able to be your authentic self at work. And I believe we should live in a world in which you can bring your fullest self to work and have that not be misinterpreted as unprofessional or too feminine or all the sort of tropes we associate with marginalized populations. You know, a lot of what I felt I had to be when I was raising money was I couldn't dress a certain way because I felt people wouldn't take me seriously.

Denise Love Hewett:
And why does me embodying femininity detract from my intelligence? Patriarchy. That's why. Right? So that's what I tell people. I'm trying to embody a life in which I can create the blueprint and show the blueprint for how other people should be. But I also want to be really candid that it's not simple. We live in a 3D world where there's material things that we have to handle, like rent and paying our bills. And it's not a linear path. It's not like one day, poof, everything just works for you, and you're living this life in which everything flows.

Denise Love Hewett:
It's taken me a long time to design a life, to get to a place where I can be my authentic self and get paid for that. It wasn't like an overnight journey. And it's taken also a lot of me saying no to opportunities that don't align with my value system, which in the short term, there was money I could have taken from my company, for example, that in the short term would have gotten us some runway in the long term. I knew that was going to be an untenable relationship that wasn't going to align with my greater picture, and that was not a price I was willing to pay. And many people that are founders pay that price, and they believe the end justifies the means. I don't, because I believe my daily well being is far more important than any amount of money I could ever receive. I believe that I should want to pick up the phone, call. If you're in my business, I'm in business with you, and not have to dread that conversation.

Denise Love Hewett:
And many people do the opposite. And so those are the sacrifices and choices I've made to get here. And that's why I want to clarify that it's not easy, because there's a lot of. I'd be a lot wealthier, for sure, in the short term, had I made different choices. But for me, it was never just about money. Everything that we preach, undo the work is about inner and external success being in alignment, because there's no amount of money that's worth it if you're not happy.

Jennifer Norman:
I used to even say that on my way to companies. Sometimes I'd be like, no amount of money is worth this shit. And I'm sure a lot of people feel that way. It's like they dread what they're doing. I appreciate the fact that you're saying it's not easy because there's a lot of work that has to go on internally, as well as almost like paying the price to a certain degree for maybe holding on to that job until you have enough of a nest egg where you can make a jump or having those hard conversations, or being that squeaky wheel at work that says, this is not right. This is not the way that ethical business is done, or, we need to get more people in here that represent the world. Those sorts of things are always seen as, like, begrudging in some cases, you know, people do the eye roll.

Denise Love Hewett:
Yeah, I've also lost jobs because of that. So there's also. There's a fear of speaking up, too, that if you want to maintain that, if I say that, will I rock the boat? Or people will ignore what I say, because now I'm causing too much friction in the workplace. And so there's, like, also a price for that stuff, too. And so I think I've always been someone that I will always choose my values over anything else because I believe standing in them draws the right people and opportunities to you and things that are more in alignment. The capitalism is such a scarcity mentality that we forget that, like, oh, actually, by me saying no to this, I might be bringing something more in alignment into my sphere versus holding onto the thing because we're so afraid that we're gonna lose the job.

Jennifer Norman:
It's so true. It's so true. I was one of those people who would fear not having a job. Even the idea and the concept of freelancing, to me, that was terrifying. Back in the day, I was like, you don't know when your next job is going to be? Oh, my God, that's so frightening.

Jennifer Norman:
But yet now I thinking to myself, man, I was almost like a slave to the life that I had created for myself in that I was thinking to myself, oh, I'm doing this because I fear not having money. I fear not being able to make a living. If I had to boil down spiritually and think about what the soul, what the real intention was for me living that way, it was because I feared any other way.

Denise Love Hewett:
No, it's very, it is very scary to be a freelancer. It's taken me a very long time to get to that space. But I mean, I had a couple lessons, really, like early in my career, I was at a big corporate production, like Hollywood studio network, and my boss had been there 15 years. So she'd graduated college and been there 15 years. That was her only job she's ever had. And I remember they were downsizing, and like, overnight they fired her. And I said, what? She's given them her whole career, 15 years. And they didn't think twice.

Denise Love Hewett:
And so we were told this story of, like, when you have corporate jobs, there's more security. And then when you realize there's not more security, which now we've seen time and time again with the amount of corporate layoffs and tech layoffs, we've all experienced that there is no such thing as job security. This idea that you're going to get a job and have a paycheck, yeah, you might have a paycheck consistently, but you're disposable. And so that's the other side that we have to remember is that when we're afraid to freelance, what we're actually sometimes creating is more security. Because if you're employable with an employable skill set, like people call you to do the thing because they believe in you and they know you can do a lot of different things. But when you're at a company, sometimes you get pigeonholed, then it might be harder to get a job because you have one thing you've been doing for 20 years, and now they cut that department, or AI takes your job and then where are you left? Or you have to think about what are my translatable skill sets? But it was like very scary for me to see that. I was like, okay, I guess there's no such thing as security, so I need to rethink how I want to work.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, and what if your only skill has really been managing up that you've learned?

Denise Love Hewett:
Listen, it works for a lot of people. I guess. I mean, wasn't my skill set, but certainly plenty of people get by with that. But I mean, that's the thing. It's like, and this is the one thing that I really have come to the conclusion of. The smartest people are not the ones that make the most amount of money.

Jennifer Norman:
Mm hmm.

Denise Love Hewett:
Making money has nothing to do with how hard you work.

Jennifer Norman:
It's so true.

Denise Love Hewett:
So, like when you realize that too, because I spent my twenties turning myself inside out, burning myself out, hustling, achieving, and I netted basically nothing. I was not necessarily further ahead in life knowledge and spiritual knowledge, but financially, I was not ahead of any of my peers. And I'd been working since I was like a teenager, and I interned all through college, and I started working full time in college like I was someone that was like, I'm going to be ahead, and then only to wake up, shut down my company and realize I felt behind. And I think that's what we have to remember, is that making money has nothing to do with how hard you work. So actually you need to figure out what is a process of ease for me and work so I can sustain the work that I do, so I could actually continue to work and make more money, because if you're burnt out, you're not going to make more money anyways.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, yeah. I love that you have this ability now to really design the life that you want. You really have this opportunity to be like, okay, this is how I want to spend my day. I'm going to do the things that I love. And I know that you love podcasting, I know that you love DJing, and those things fill you with joy and sense of fulfillment. And isn't it wonderful to be able to design the life around the things that you truly love doing, rather than a lot of just like admin stuff that you.

Denise Love Hewett:
Yeah. To be doing, it's a luxury, for sure. It's a privilege. And I think one of the major things when I was building my company, that despite a lot of the heartbreak, a piece that sort of always saved me was that I was DJ. I've been a DJ for 15 years. So I started as a hobby and it grew. It sort of grown year over year on its own. It was like the embodiment of flow for me, where it just worked.

Denise Love Hewett:
It worked and I didn't put a lot of energy into it, it just kept working. And it's something that I stuck to over time because I just loved it. And then it got to a point where it was making me serious money. And that was something I never sort of anticipated, but it was something that I excelled in while experiencing, like deep, deep struggle over here and having a hobby that then became more of a full time job that was working while something wasn't working, was in a lot of ways a saving grace, because my whole identity didn't hinge on one thing. So as sad as I was, I also knew that I had something to offer, and I was valuable. It wasn't a complete, like, identity crisis. It was a crisis of looking at systems that weren't built for me and a lot of other people and realizing that I'd been chasing a blueprint that was ultimately never going to be my path.

Jennifer Norman:
That's such a huge lesson, too. And it's nice that you had that going at the same time, because if one does not have something that they're passionate and loves, whether it be a hobby or whether it be like a side gig or a side hustle or what have you, I mean, it can be crushing. It can be soul crushing, because people's identity gets. Gets conflated with their jobs and with feeling like I don't belong or they don't want me, or all of the things that go through people's minds when they're either laid off or something happens career wise, the job, the place has to shut down all of those things, and it just turns into a big existential crisis. And it's really very heartwarming to know that you were able to find bliss in this other aspect and that we are all multidimensional beings. There are so many different aspects of ourselves. And one thing that does, quote, unquote, fail, I'll put that in air quotes, because it's not really a failure. It's like a social failure capitalism would deem a failure.

Jennifer Norman:
But to us, it's like, okay, it's a door. It's a door that opens up. And I see that I can step through it and do something else or try something else, or it's another opportunity for me to follow my heart and my soul.

Denise Love Hewett:
Yeah, I think failure is redirection. And I look at it as for me, it was one of the most painful experiences. And certainly the commentary afterwards was like, wild people called me and they're like, okay, so you've had a really big failure. Like, what's next? What's next, people? Oh, you've had a really big failure. You really need a really big win. And I was like, I am just treading water, trying to breathe. I can't think about what's next. I can't possibly even imagine giving what I gave to that company to anything else right now.

Denise Love Hewett:
I did not. It took me about, to be perfectly honest, three years to get back to a place where I felt like I had something to give. And I think for me, in that process of synthesizing failure and what that process was for me, it became my superpower. And this is what I really want to share with people, is that when bad things happen to you, or things that, like, break your heart, what they really do is remember what you love. They really just show you what your truth is. And I wouldn't have broken my heart if I didn't love and believe in it so fiercely. And so I got to a place where I was like, I have this opportunity to really figure out how I want to work moving forward in a way that doesn't deplete me, in a way that fills me up and the way that I can create better impact and more sustainable impact. And it was a gift.

Denise Love Hewett:
As much as I feel like I'm sort of starting over at a time where I thought a lot of my life would be more figured out, I think now I have this opportunity to do the thing that I always wanted to do, that I was too afraid to do, which is that my core, my core truth has always been my whole life is that I'm a performer. And I put it on the back burner for a really long time. Djing was always there, reminding me of that. And now I know that's what I am. Like, that's what I want to do. I'm a creative at heart. I'm good at business, I'm good at these other things, but that's not my core truth. And I don't think I would have gotten there if I hadn't had the bottom fall out.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, and the devastation is real. I mean, it's definitely difficult. It takes time. It's not easy to see the light at the end of a tunnel on many days. On many days. Sometimes you just gotta be able to sit in it and just feel it and just be like, okay, this is where I am right now. And let yourself go through that process. It's a period of grieving for us until you can finally get to the place where it's like, all right, I think I might have the energy to, like, 1ft in front of the other and then start again.

Jennifer Norman:
It happens to so many people at any stage of life. It can happen early on, it can happen in your fifties. Some people, it happens even after their retirement. And then they feel a loss of purpose and they're like, what do I do with myself now? And then they decide to do something in their sixties and seventies.

Denise Love Hewett:
In some cases, when parents, when their kids leave the nest, there's usually a big recalibration of who am I now that I'm not a parent with kids at home?

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Denise Love Hewett:
It's a very real universal feeling that I don't think we give a lot of space or credit to in our culture. And that's a lot of why I wanted to talk about it, because it's not unique to me. It's. We all have, like, my dad had a boss that betrayed him, broke his heart. I have plenty of friends that have shared different experiences in which they felt passed over or slighted or betrayed in a work contact, and they just have to, like, swallow it. And I said, you don't swallow it. We can hold the space for that because with really big risks or really big choices or things we care about, big swings, you're going to feel euphoria and you're going to feel grief. Like, that's, those are, that's the, when you take that kind of risk, those are the options, right.

Denise Love Hewett:
It works and you feel great, or it doesn't work and you're heartbroken, but you're not living if you're not taking those risks. And so, so it's also a mark of being human, which is, we're here to swing, we're here to live, we're here to experience, we're here to feel the good, the bad, and there's no shame or judgment in the sadness. And that's really also what I had to learn was, like, I'm not going to feel shame around being heartbroken on this. I'm not going to hide my tears, which was a big thing and very scary for me, as someone who historically has been more, not publicly vulnerable. It was a big step for me to get that radically honest, but it was the truest, most honest part of me.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. And bravo for talking about it. What not to say to somebody is, "You need a big win right now."

Denise Love Hewett:
Woo. Yeah, it was a lot, but I also learned a lot about how people perceive things. It's helpful. It's helpful because I get to then tell, try and help people with better language because that's not productive. Actually, what I need is you just to hold my hand and tell me that, like, you did something that was worth doing. And I know that, like, success is an inevitable part of my path, whatever big moments are coming. I don't have qualms or worries that I'm not gonna summit the mountains I want to summit. It was more that, like, I have to properly bury this thing so I can actually stand on firmer ground to do the next thing.

Denise Love Hewett:
Otherwise this thing will haunt me the rest of my life. And I don't believe I'm a failure. I believe this is a chapter that put me into a place to be a more empathetic, better leader and to give people tools to, like, combat the things that I faced, the things that I hope the next generation doesn't face.

Jennifer Norman:
You are so authentically aware of where you are and are able to hold space for other people who are also going through a process, but also thinking about it in the context of it's one thing, it's one thing that happened. And being this beautiful goddess that I have before me on my screen, which is Denise Love Hewitt, she is a badass in so many respects. I mean, the DJ work that she does, her speaking, her podcast is on fire. And I would love for you to talk a little bit about these amazing guests. You have these great conversations. Were there any that really just, like, resonated with you? Like, it really tugged at your heart, and you were like, man, everybody needs to hear this.

Denise Love Hewett:
There's many. I'm so blessed with the podcast, and the podcast came from all these people I was meeting when I was in Hollywood or building my startup that I felt I was just so lucky. I was like, who am I that I get to meet these people and have these conversations? And the world deserves this wisdom? I don't want to hoard this wisdom. And so that was the genesis of it. And so, so many people on the podcast taught me so much. One of those people being Tina Lifford, who's the founder of the Inner Fitness Project. And Tina's also on the TV show Queen Sugar. She's an actor as well.

Denise Love Hewett:
But she is someone who really invests in the work and is so generous with her Inner Fitness Project to people can also learn from her. So she gives the tools out, and she's had so many brilliant things she said to me. She coined sort of the idea of the surviving self, the thriving self, and the infinite self. A lot of people's mentality is to thrive. I have to have all my needs met. So, like, once my needs are met, then I can thrive. And she taught me that, she was like, when you're thriving, all your needs are naturally met.

Denise Love Hewett:
And I was like, such a small shift, but such a massive shift for me that I was so focused on, like, oh, gotta pay all my bills or just getting by when I was building my startup, because I was like, a broke startup founder. And when I changed that mindset, it was like all of a sudden somehow, I mean, it wasn't rich, but the bills got paid. It was such a small thing that I was went from being stressed to being in more of a state of flow. She also talks about, when we ask questions, there are spiritual technology, because it's an opportunity. When you ask a question that something will, you'll hear something within yourself, or you'll create the space for the answer to come in. And I love that because it's something so simple that everyone has access to. It doesn't take any amount of money. It doesn't take anything other than you sitting with yourself and listening to the world and the universe around you.

Denise Love Hewett:
So, Tina is one of my great, great teachers, and I love her episode. The other person that embodies the frequency I want to live in is Sheree Watterson. She is the former CPO of Athleta, Lululemon, she was the former CEO of Nasty Gal. And Sheree is joy incarnate. I talk about it on the podcast, the name of the episode, which is joy as a responsibility. I have been friends with her in really high moments and some really dark moments, and I've never met anybody who can contain the joy 24/7 like, Sheree. I am in awe of her ability to be joyful, even when life is, like, putting a foot on her neck.

Denise Love Hewett:
And so I definitely say, like, follow her, listen to her. Like, she's just like, great, great, great things about life. I learned so much from these people, and they've been great teachers of mine, but those are the two that I think that in my head, like, just are life things that I've taken with me always. But there's so many more amazing nuggets on the pod.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, that's beautiful.

Denise Love Hewett:
Yes.

Jennifer Norman:
Everybody needs to listen. It reminds me of, I'm gonna mention a name, and I know it's going to, like, cause people to react, but I was listening to a talk by Elon Musk, and he was saying, like, the reason why he was so intrigued by space. He's got, obviously, many, many interests, but he read the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy when he was young, and in it, there was this notion of the universe is the answer. It's up to us to come up with the questions, and when we come up with the questions, that's when we gain knowledge to better understand the answer, which is the universe. You know what? That's actually pretty cool. That's actually an interesting way of looking at things.

Jennifer Norman:
And it reminded me of the quote about thriving and not surviving. Is like, because if you have this mindset of thriving, if you live in abundant joy, then everything just goes your way. Everything starts to work out with that vibration and with that thinking that you're bringing the quantum forward. You're bringing all of the things that you're hoping to manifest into your fold because you feel that and you're attracting that vibration, and you're just in sync with it, which is just such powerful stuff. Absolutely powerful.

Jennifer Norman:
What would you say to people who are, okay, they're going through some sort of professional heartbreak right now, and they don't know what to do? Like, what do you think was helpful for you? What do you think was not so helpful for you? And how would you, if you had to go back and say, like, yeah, this is something that I felt, and this is what helped me. Try it on for size. It's not like I'm telling you or we're telling you, like, you should do.

Denise Love Hewett:
Yeah. Nothing's prescriptive. Nothing. I never say anything...everyone has methodologies that work for them. Nothing's prescriptive. But I think I appreciate...you're giving me actually, like, it's very interesting. I have, like, a lot of gratitude right now for that experience because I'm realizing so how much I learned through it, and I think I haven't really reflected on how grateful I am for that. So I thank you for bringing that to my attention.

Denise Love Hewett:
I think you just have to sit in it. And what was really hard for me as someone who's like, I'm a Virgo. I'm, like, Type A. I'm, like, very ambitious was really hard for me, as I had so many moments where I would call my mom crying, and I'm like, what am I doing with my fucking life? Like, what am I doing? I'm just wasting time. Nothing's happening. Like, am I ever going to do anything ever again? That's how it felt is that felt as I had nothing to give. And will I ever feel full enough to give from that place? Because I'm a worker where it's like everything I do is very pure from the heart, and I can't give from a false place. And so I'm not someone who clocks in and makes money and calls it a day.

Denise Love Hewett:
I'm sort of a giver. And so one of the, I guess, guidelines I set for myself during that time period was I can't do anything that is energetically depleting because I have nothing to give. So everything has to be energetically neutral for just for money, but it doesn't take anything from me or joy. And so when I felt that, I guess still those were my guiding lights. And so I took consulting jobs that were energetically neutral, that paid the bills that got me through. And then I had this joy center, which was djing and the podcast that when those things came up, I would say yes, and those filled my cup, and I would follow those. And in the year that I shut down my company, it was arguably the saddest year of my life. It felt, the grief felt more acute than the grief I have felt when I've gone through, like, a relationship breakup or when I've lost a loved one, largely because I think I accept death as a natural part of the human cycle.

Denise Love Hewett:
The pain felt far more acute because it also felt like the loss of potential. Like, we never really got it to, like, live. The company never got the chance it deserved. So I felt like I was just, like, had a lot of what ifs, had a lot of questions about why it didn't work. And it's really easy to stay in that rumination when you're sort of in that place. But in that year where I was still and I had nothing to give, and I was just, like, joy or energetically neutral, I traveled more, I worked less than, I made the most amount of money I've ever made in my life. And it was very crazy for me. I didn't even know how much money I made until I did my taxes that year.

Denise Love Hewett:
And I was like, not that I was like, huge amounts of money, but the point was, I sat there and I was like, whoa. Everything that I thought I knew about how to work and make money is wrong. So since then, I have continued to do my best to surrender to the flow of life and trust the process. But the only way I was really able to do that was because I had nothing to give, because I'm an ambitious person. I have juice, and I want to move, and I want to get things done, and I have to sort of temper that instinct in myself to figure out what is actually right for me and trust the process a bit and let things unfold versus trying to make things happen. And I know in our culture, we're very big on force and making things happen. But that was the biggest takeaway, was that I beyond benefited from this surrender and choosing things that didn't take from me. And that has been a continuing lesson for me that I took out of that experience.

Denise Love Hewett:
And so that would be the advice I would give someone, is just do things that support you or don't take from you and just see what unfolds.

Jennifer Norman:
That's really interesting advice because it's almost like you don't really get emotionally attached to those pieces where it's like, all right, I gotta pay the bills. This is taking care of business. And it's not like your just like, phoning it in. Your emotions and all of those things that bring you joy and bring you satisfaction are still present in your life. You're not putting them on hold. You're not saying, I need to put you aside and then just focus on figuring things out over here, because most likely is not what is going to build long term happiness and satisfaction and you feeling like you're truly fulfilled for a very long period of time.

Denise Love Hewett:
Yeah, I just knew most of the things I was doing were temporary and that they would lead me somewhere and, or maybe nowhere. But I also knew that a lot of the consulting work I was doing was helping founders. So I was helping founders build their business. I was helping them a lot of different sort of sectors of their businesses. And that's joyful for me. That's a lot of what I love doing is supporting people that I believe in. And so even though it wasn't like, you know, the be all, end all dream wise for me, like where I'm trying to go with my dream, it was something that I felt I was additive, it was purposeful. I got to support someone and I got, got to the benefit of that was then my bills were paid.

Denise Love Hewett:
And then on the other side, there were things that I really wanted to pursue, like the podcast and djing, which when those, the opportunities came in, those were the ones that I was like, great. This feels like, can see that my future exists while I'm stuck here.

Jennifer Norman:
Now, I want to talk a moment about your professional DJ experience, because to me, it's very cool. I mean, music, gosh, music is just so soul fulfilling unto itself. And I'm just curious. Okay, so you get a gig. What's your favorite kind of music, first of all?

Denise Love Hewett:
Oh, I'm so multi lane because. Cause I just have like, a very eclectic taste in music. For me, it's really about, like, what makes you dance. So it depends. I like play. I just opened a bar in Los Angeles. I'm a co owner of a bar called the Moon Room, and that's a very much predominantly disco house venue. So we do that there.

Denise Love Hewett:
But then I have places I play that are more like hip hop, reggaeton, which I also deeply love. And so it's just like, each thing brings a different. I'm very much more focused on the energetic exchange between the audience and I because that's what really drives a set of, is how the people show up. And if they show up in a very joyful, abundant way, I show up in a joyful, abundant way. So it's. A lot of it is that. That mirroring of the energy in the room that drives the set more so than the music. It's like I'm reacting to the people that are showing up.

Jennifer Norman:
Do you prefer to DJ in smaller venues or large places, or does it not matter?

Denise Love Hewett:
I think club gigs. I prefer smaller venues. I've always sort of not really ever been a super club girl. That's never been, like, my background as a patron.

Jennifer Norman:
That makes one of us. No, just kidding!

Denise Love Hewett:
They're big business.

Jennifer Norman:
Just kidding.

Denise Love Hewett:
People love them. I don't love festivals. Like, big crowds are hard. Like, as a DJ, it's fine. I don't mind DJing big rooms at all, but as, like, a person, I don't like big crowds. So, like, I'm not like a big super club or festival girlie as a customer. So I love intimate venues. I think, like, I grew up in New York nightlife, and New York nightlife, when I came up, was a lot of smaller venues.

Denise Love Hewett:
And so I think that's just how I understand or where I feel at home in nightlife. And so I think it's just something. There's something more. I don't know, it feels, like, special in a smaller room when certain things happen and then, you know, bigger stuff is just more commercial. So I've definitely played, like, larger sets, and I really enjoy those because they have their own set of adrenaline. But on a week to week basis, you'll find me at small clubs, but definitely for, like, one off events, really. Like, there's a unique thing, but I'm sure many people probably don't know this, but when you're, like, a touring artist, whether you're a musician or a DJ, like, that level of adrenaline that you get every single night in front of big, big crowds does mess with your brain. It messes with your neural pathways.

Denise Love Hewett:
So a lot of people, when they get off tour, they get very depressed because they're used to this immense amount of positive affirmation on a nightly basis. And so I do think about those things, too, because I do think about me wanting to be a happy person for the duration of my life. I constantly am doing work on my neural pathways to have better positive thinking and self talk and things like that. So I do think about. I don't necessarily want to be on tour. That's not necessarily a dream of mine. Like, I would do it for, like, a month or two, but I don't want to be on tour for a year. It just is not, I don't think, supportive of how I like to be in work. And also, I think there's fears around getting off tour and feeling, like, sort of purposeless.

Jennifer Norman:
Interesting. I've definitely heard about that as well, where it's like, once the movie ends, it's like a real thing. What, now? You feel like gotten into a bit of a trough.

Jennifer Norman:
I want to talk about Hollywood for a second. It seems like it's trying. It seems like there's some sort of trying. And I don't know if it's because people are forcing it upon Hollywood in terms of inclusivity, but it seems like there's more content coming to the fray from diverse aspects. I just finished watching Beef, and I thought it was amazing. Like, I would have never have watched an all Asian cast before on a show. That, to me, was pretty rare, and others as well.But if you could wave a magic wand and help to migrate Hollywood into a specific course or a path, what would that look like to you?

Denise Love Hewett:
It would look like equity across the board. So a lot of what's happened in Hollywood, is Netflix actually a leader in the market. So Netflix is actually doing a good job. I will say. I don't know the data on behind the camera, but in front of the camera, they're doing a better job than everyone else in terms of diversity and inclusion. The major issue is that a lot of what we're saying is performative inclusion. So you see in front of the camera, you might see more diversity, but then behind the camera and then in who is greenlighting content, there's a lot of homogeneity. Is that how you say it? And so what really has to happen is that we need the corporate structures, the boards of these massive companies, the CEO's, the C suite, the VPs, all to embody diversity and inclusion, as well as the grips, the camera people, a lot of that.

Denise Love Hewett:
And so I think, you know, Stacy Smith does a really good job. She has a roundup every year of data on Hollywood of what's happening, what's improved, what's not improved, and some things have improved, but a lot of things have not improved. And just having been in a lot of rooms, there's also really a lot of toxic stuff that's happening. So for example, people loved to during around BLM and that time, people love to say that, like, white men weren't getting hired in writers rooms because now they have to hire more diverse people, which is a very harmful narrative to perpetuate, because I can promise you, if these people are talented enough and good enough, they would get hired. What's happening is when you have a workforce that has been predominantly one type of person has been rewarded for the history of time, and then you have a whole subset of people who've been marginalized, who've had to become excellent to participate in the sphere, is that they, frankly, in a lot of ways, like, have out evolved the person that's been given, like, an easier time. And so in a market where it actually becomes competitive, mediocrity is not going to rise. And so things have gotten more competitive. At the same time, they're also not that competitive because as much as, yes, there might be more people of color and women in writers rooms, statistically, there's still more white men in Hollywood than anybody else.

Denise Love Hewett:
So this idea that that story was being told was very upsetting for me because I was like, you're causing like, a this or that type mentality. This is not that what's happening at all. There's still more jobs for white men than anybody else. And now you're basically creating this, like, divide that you took my job when that's just not true. It just got a tiny bit more competitive. That's it. And of course, when equality feels like oppression, you've been the person that has the most opportunity.

Denise Love Hewett:
So I think it's a reckoning in which people have to realize that to live in a meritocracy, it sometimes is going to feel like oppression. And that's something we have to, like, get comfortable with if we want to live in a world that is fair. And I just think that means I don't worry about someone coming for my lunch, because I'm really good at what I do and I believe in myself, and I'm not concerned that there's not a shortage of jobs. Yeah, better business. And that's the part for me that, like, if we're really talking about money and wanting to make the most amount of money, it has been proven time and time again that the more diverse, like a company is, or a productionist, the more innovative it is. We've seen, obviously, this past summer with, like, Barbie, Taylor Swift, Beyonce, that women are really good business. And so what I came to in the process of the dissolution of my company was that we're not actually trying to make more money. We're trying to concentrate power, because we're actually trying to make more money, which means, like, the more opportunity they have, the pie just gets bigger.

Denise Love Hewett:
There's no finite amount of money in the world. So if we're, like, trying to be like this, it's like, let's just expand the pie. Everyone makes more money. Like, everyone will make rising tides. Yeah. Yeah. So why are we doing this thing? Because it's about concentration of power. It's about greed.

Denise Love Hewett:
It's not actually about making more money. And so I think that's what I want to challenge people, is that there's a lot more money on the other side of being more inclusive and being more innovative. There's a lot more that we can do. There's a lot of amazing, brilliant ideas being left on the table, amazing stories being left on the table, because we don't feel comfortable, like, creating more space. Like, it just seems absolutely insane to me. I just think about all the innovation we have lost. I mean, I volunteer in prisons every three months, months. I do an entrepreneurship course there, and I just think about those men, those men that have been not given real opportunities or resources and the ideas we're leaving in prison.

Denise Love Hewett:
Like, these great minds who have decided to shut away for 30 years instead of investing in them and giving them better opportunities. We could have a very different world, and we're making very, like, sort of choices that don't make sense to me but also feel very harsh. Like, I do believe that the people are good. I do believe that people deserve second chances and more opportunities. And I think that there's a lot more good coming out of creating space than bad.

Jennifer Norman:
I have to give props to a lot of the men that, during the whole BLM experience, decided to step down and say, you know what? It's not my time anymore. I really need to give this seat to somebody else. And so it's a recognition. What power means is, like, are you just hoarding it and trying to keep it for yourself by virtue, excluding other people from getting to a place where they can lead? Or is that to the detriment of society? Are you doing it because you just feel that it's going to inflate your own ego and support your own family? Meanwhile, you've probably got plenty to go around, and yet there is an opportunity for all of this innovation, all this talent, all that you were just mentioning to really come to the fore. And so I can see a place where Hollywood may get there. I mean, if we speaking it out into the universe right now, then it's very possible that it can happen and that we will see a world where more women, more people of color are going to be able to lead in the way that is healthiest for them. And it doesn't have to look exactly like what we're seeing now. It doesn't have to be a concentration of wealth in just the upper 2%. It doesn't have to look that way.

Denise Love Hewett:
No, I think the world will look very different. And I think one of the things I struggle with now is that people are, like, always, like, oh, you know, everyone's so sensitive now. You have to do, like, be so concerned. And I say, if we care about people, then we take the time to be sensitive, but it doesn't cost us anything. It takes me a little more time to learn somebody's pronouns. It takes me a little more time to make sure I seamlessly say they instead of he or she. And I think people feel, they feel uncomfortable about it.

Denise Love Hewett:
But for me, it's just an opportunity for me to make people feel seen and heard, and that's how I view it. And I think when you talk about, like, corporate leadership, so much of corporate leadership right now runs in reactivity of people that have not worked on themselves. And I really believe the key to the world we all want to live in is doing some inner work and taking the time to make people feel seen and heard. Because it's like, that is how we live in harmony. And I just really believe that the greatest spiritual lesson of the world is just to, we're all connected. We're all one. We've been saying this for years and years and years. Many spiritual leaders have said this, and we still haven't grasped this thing.

Denise Love Hewett:
And amidst, obviously, all the war and strife that's happening in the world right now, it breaks my heart, because I'm like, have we learned nothing? That we still are doing the same things? Instead of saying, like, we can't, in 2024, come to the table and have a conversation how we can live in harmony, we're still doing us versus them.

Jennifer Norman:
It's so true. And, I mean, it could be a very simple thing to resolve if we were to have more self love. I always think that it starts from, like, the, like from ourselves. It's like if everybody just really felt that they didn't need to have power over another, that that person isn't out to get them. Because the more that we think that, you know, what this person is, then they'll believe that person's not out to get me, and I don't have to harm them to prevent them from harming me.

Jennifer Norman:
You know, it's just like living in a place where we can all be just benevolent and respectful and kind and compassionate and understanding and knowing that we're going to have bad days, things are going to happen, and just like calamity is going to happen and people will react based out of their pain and their wounds and knowing where that's coming from and saying, like, you know, I get it. I was there, too. I've been in pain. And I understand your suffering and either giving you the time that you need in order to process or supporting you in your healing and your processing. Like, all of those things could make the world look so different. Could it be so simple?

Denise Love Hewett:
Right. If we knew it could be simple.

Jennifer Norman:
But it's so hard.

Denise Love Hewett:
Well, like, if we knew why we're reacting the way we're reacting, then we. Because there's so many times in my life where I was showing up as someone I didn't want to be and I didn't really have the tools in my earlier life where I didn't know why that was happening. And then I gave myself the tools, and all of a sudden, I'm able to be more of the person I want to be. Be. And I think a lot of people feel that way, but they feel stuck and they feel like they don't know how to start. And the good news is we live in a world now where there's a lot of free resources that you can sort of start to discover maybe why things are happening if you don't have the money for, like, a coach or therapist or any of those things.

Jennifer Norman:
YouTube University.

Denise Love Hewett:
But that's the thing. I mean, that's where we start knowing ourselves and then knowing why we're doing things. And then it's like, okay, well, then I can stop, like, becoming someone that I'm not proud of.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. Yeah. Now if everybody in the world could just stop and listen to this podcast, listen to Denise, you know what? Wars would end.

Denise Love Hewett:
Peace! War would end right now.

Jennifer Norman:
I mean, solve it right now.

Denise Love Hewett:
I mean, there's so much, like, generational trauma around what's happening right now. Like, there were. It's a very, like, intense situation.

Jennifer Norman:
Yes.

Denise Love Hewett:
And I understand why people are reacting the way they're reacting. I'm, at my core, anti war, so I don't believe there's ever a reason or justification for war. But I think I sit there and I'm like, are we at this place where we can't, we can't solve this, we can't talk about this like this. Many people have to die. It just feels like, what's the point?

Jennifer Norman:
You and a lot of people are feeling that same exact way. The effort in raising awareness for it and in having shows like this and your show where we can get to a place where our spirituality and the understanding of connectedness really does start to just infiltrate into the conscience consciousness a little bit more. A little bit more. Little by little, I think that we'll get there.

Jennifer Norman:
Denise Love Hewett, everyone. Her podcast is Do The Work. Please go over, take a look at it, check it out. Thank you so much, Denise, for being my guest today. It was amazing. You are amazing. Tokyo is amazing. Thank you so much.

Denise Love Hewett:
He was really quiet.

Jennifer Norman:
He was. He was so quiet. He didn't make the appearance that I thought he would.

Denise Love Hewett:
Thank you so, so much. It's such a joy, such a treat to talk with you.

Jennifer Norman:
Have a great one.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you for listening to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Be sure to follow, rate and review us wherever you stream podcasts. The Human Beauty Movement is a community based platform that cultivates the beauty of humankind. Check out our workshops, find us on social media, and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more@thehumanbeautymovement.com thank you so much for being a beautiful human.