Communicating with Care, Courage, and Clarity Takes More Than Words with Carrie Fox

Jennifer Norman [00:00:08]:

Hello, beautiful humans. Welcome to today's show. My guest today is a woman who certainly has a way with words, but more importantly, she knows that it takes more than words to be a courageous leader. Let me introduce you to Carrie Fox. Carrie is the founder and CEO of the communications firm Mission Partners. She's also the host of the Mission Forward podcast and most recently, the author of the bestselling book, More Than Words. Carrie has helped hundreds of leaders gear up and create positive change in the world by helping them communicate with care, courage and clarity during challenging times. And she's here today to talk about how courageous leaders communicate with empathy for impact.

Jennifer Norman [00:00:50]:

Welcome, Carrie.

Carrie Fox [00:00:51]:

Jennifer, thank you so much for having me for that beautiful introduction.

Jennifer Norman [00:00:54]:

Oh, you are so welcome. And I am so glad that you're here. Now you are a communications guru. I would love for you to tell everybody how you got your start.

Carrie Fox [00:01:05]:

So it's so funny, Jennifer, I can think back to when I was probably six or seven years old, loving stories. Loving telling stories and hearing stories and how excited they made me feel and getting that feeling all throughout my body, reading a great book that it would just carry on with me. Right. Hating to get to a last page. And I thought, I'm going to do something that has to do with storytelling. I just didn't know what. And so when I ultimately got to college and preparing for college, I decided to major in public relations. I thought being behind the camera would be an interesting way to help tell important stories.

Carrie Fox [00:01:37]:

And then moved into working in public affairs and public relations jobs, first working with a very well known celebrity, managing his brand, and then moving into very specific cause related work. And that's really where I found my heart and my focus.

Jennifer Norman [00:01:52]:

Amazing. Now, you have a passion, particularly working with organizations that are looking to advance social justice. So public affairs, the like that, as you had just mentioned. So why did you start gravitating towards social justice? Why is that important to you?

Carrie Fox [00:02:06]:

Well, you know me a little bit, and maybe you picked up on this that I wear my heart on my sleeve. Right. It is very hard for me to sell widgets. It's very hard for me to promote something that I don't feel really deeply invested in. And so from that early age through college, I went to school in Baltimore, Maryland, in a place that was really on this dividing line between great wealth and great poverty. And thinking about how the stories we tell one another help inform and shape how we understand the world and what would happen if we really channeled the energy we have into challenging some of these narratives and stereotypes that exist. What could happen in those divides, right. In societal divides.

Carrie Fox [00:02:44]:

And so I figured there is one shot at life that we get. And if I'm going to use it as a communications professional, I want to see what's going to happen if I use communications as a force for good. So my first agency, I started that agency in 2004. It was 25 years old. I often say, before I knew any better, I started a firm. And I decided that I was going to ground that firm in supporting organizations who could say, what we do, we do for the good of others. And I was going to help advance their missions and their stories through social causes that I cared about and I believed I could help do something about. So that was the grounding of the work.

Carrie Fox [00:03:18]:

I did that work for about 13 years, built up C Fox Communications, and then in 2016, maybe we'll get into this. I decided to sunset that firm and start another one called Mission Partners. And that firm is a B Corporation. And that's what allowed me to meet you and the wonderful B Corp community.

Jennifer Norman [00:03:33]:

Yes, it is an amazing community. And I think that the thing that we had discovered about each other is that we cheer for the underdog. I think that we recognize and are so grateful having that gratitude for the privilege that we do have in the world, but recognizing that there is injustice, recognizing that there is such inequity and imbalance. And we like to see the stories of those untold heroes being sung more often than the celebrities that are already in the limelight, perhaps.

Carrie Fox [00:04:02]:

Right. And the world already feels so heavy.

Jennifer Norman [00:04:05]:

Right.

Carrie Fox [00:04:05]:

And we can feel completely overwhelmed with that heaviness. But we can also find ways to channel that heaviness and do something about it.

Jennifer Norman [00:04:13]:

Right.

Carrie Fox [00:04:13]:

To find a way to bring joy into the work, in how we tell stories, to try to flip how we understand the world and make sure that that optimism is what we are able to bring into our work and into our world.

Jennifer Norman [00:04:24]:

Right. Okay. So now, with Mission Partners and with the work that you do, you guys offer such great service to a lot of different companies, to leaders. What are some of the biggest reasons why these organizations are coming to you?

Carrie Fox [00:04:37]:

Almost every time when an organization picks up the phone and is looking for our services, they are at a moment of transition. They are at an inflection point. Right. They are trying to decide, do I go this way or that way? And sometimes it's a very big strategic decision. Do we merge with another firm or do we go in this direction? Do we sunset this line of business or do we expand it? Lots of different reasons why organizations come to us. But the thing that holds them together is that they're at that inflection point, and then the layer on top of that is they want to show up fully, authentically in that work. And so many times what leaders who are hiring us will say is, I don't know how to say this right. We're going through this really important moment.

Carrie Fox [00:05:19]:

We need a little bit of guidance on how to get through it. We also need guidance on how to talk about it, because we understand that both how we talk about our work internally and externally has an effect on how effective we will be.

Jennifer Norman [00:05:31]:

Really interesting, because I think that a lot of listeners can relate to the fact that you might be working for an organization and things are in flux, things are growing, and you might have growing pains. There might be some big transition, as Carrie was mentioning. And all of a sudden, the management swoops in with a consultancy that doesn't really vibe very well with the organization and then ends up putting together a presentation that goes into a binder and sits on a shelf and collects stuff.

Carrie Fox [00:06:00]:

Oh, gosh. Right?

Jennifer Norman [00:06:02]:

How many times has that happened over people's careers? Where that occurs, the difference is, and when you get to some leadership that really knows how to ask for help and recognizes that they do need help in a more meaningful way and is willing to open not only the organization up, but themselves up to asking for real good counsel, that really speaks to the heart and soul of what that company is about, and helping them to convey their message in such a way out to the world that can be best received, that is not an easy thing. It's not an easy thing to find, to be honest with you. It's very select and very, very few and far between to be able to find companies and services that are willing to take the time to get to know the leadership in such a way, to understand the values, to understand and really get involved in the organization so that they can provide most meaningful help and the best outcome. And that's what I've been so excited about with Carrie's work and what mission partners does is because that is what they're all about. And they've worked with some really great organizations to affect some Amazing change, which I have the privilege of knowing about personally, because I know Carrie and I've read her book, and I know these case studies that she has gone through that have really made significant change in even legislation and different Things that have happened across the mindset of just thinking about public affairs and service and social good. So, yeah, I encourage everybody to really think deeply about the leadership and the management and understanding and knowing how to ask for help. I think that that is one of the traits of a courageous leader, is to know when and how to ask for help. And I would love to pitch it over to Carrie and know, what do you think are some of the other traits of courageous leaders that you've come across?

Carrie Fox [00:07:53]:

There was just so much in what you said that I love, and I love so much how you captured all of that right from the very first piece that you just shared, which is that when the agency swoops in and they're the ones who are communicating the message, that's not what a courageous leader will do.

Jennifer Norman [00:08:08]:

Right.

Carrie Fox [00:08:08]:

So to answer your question, the courageous leader is the one who will show up often a very vulnerable state, to say, look, team, we're going to be going through some changes. They are the ones who deliver that message. They don't expect their agency to deliver it on their behalf.

Jennifer Norman [00:08:22]:

Right.

Carrie Fox [00:08:22]:

We're going to go through some difficult changes over the next few months, and we're going to be on this journey together. We're going to work through some challenging conversations.

Jennifer Norman [00:08:28]:

Right?

Carrie Fox [00:08:29]:

You're going to see me not always know the answers to these questions, but what I have found time and again is when leaders are willing to say, I don't have all the answers. Right. But I'm willing to go through this process. I'm willing to ask the questions and dig in and be in this with my team, that the level of trust and credibility that that builds is beyond anything else. Right. Beyond a leader who has all the answers is someone who's willing to say, I don't have the answers, but I care so deeply in seeing this through, and I'm going to see it through with my team. So that's one thing I think is so important. You mentioned care, courage and clarity.

Jennifer Norman [00:09:04]:

Right.

Carrie Fox [00:09:04]:

So care really deeply is people first thinking about the organizations we run and the communities that we work with, that we are all people first. We come with different perspectives and we come with different backgrounds. But many times in business, it's easy to forget. Unfortunately, sometimes the people we're thinking about the bottom line, we're thinking about the big project we're running after. We're thinking about the deliverable, and we forget how many people are impacted and affected by the work along the way. So really deeply showing care and radical levels of care, radical levels of courage, radical levels of clarity in how we do this work. That, to me, all really speaks to how a courageous leader shows up a bit differently than a traditional leader.

Jennifer Norman [00:09:46]:

Yeah, I believe that courageous leaders break down those silos, they crush the ivory tower. They don't care about that corner office that is, like, so 1980s. And I feel like we're in a time now where the most courageous leaders are servants. They recognize that they are in service to their people, to the communities that they're serving, to the customers and the clients that they have. And they're doing their part to really enrich everything around them. Don't you think?

Carrie Fox [00:10:15]:

I completely agree with you. And one great example of that is when you think about the spokesperson of an organization, often the default spokesperson of an organization will be the chief executive officer, will be the person who holds the majority of power inside the organization. But what if. Right. That chief executive officer brings that power to someone on the team who doesn't typically have access to that microphone, who doesn't typically hold the pen. Those are other examples that we've seen, really show how we can tell stories and understand stories and understand issues in ways that we might not, because there are certain voices that aren't always given that chance to tell a story from a different perspective.

Jennifer Norman [00:10:52]:

Yeah. It reminds me of one of the quotes that's in your book, which I absolutely love. And it's on page 167, heading up the chapter 24 on people first. It's a quote that is attributed to Theodore Roosevelt, which goes, “No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.” Do you think that more leaders are getting the idea of empathy and compassion and even bringing love into the workplace?

Carrie Fox [00:11:15]:

I think they are, though. I think it's hard. Right. This is one of those norms in business that for so long, we've been told to keep love at the door. Right. Get in and do your work and focus on what needs to be done. Focus on those key mile markers and numbers that we talked about. But there is this wonderful opportunity, particularly in the world that we live in now, for the leader to lead with love.

Jennifer Norman [00:11:39]:

Right.

Carrie Fox [00:11:39]:

For the leader to show what it looks like to lead with love, to challenge the way benefits are offered or the way that an organization runs in service of what can work best for the team.

Jennifer Norman [00:11:51]:

Now, you provide some really great advice on how leaders can lead and communicate with love. Can you tell us about some of the practices that these courageous leaders ensue?

Carrie Fox [00:12:01]:

I'm going to share a really small example first, because I think it's sometimes the little changes that can make a big impact.

Jennifer Norman [00:12:07]:

Sure.

Carrie Fox [00:12:08]:

So I had a very, very dear friend who every time she went on vacation, she would put an out of office message up that said, hi, friends, I'm out for a few weeks. I remember one very specifically. I'm traveling to the national parks. Click on this link and you can see where I'm going. You can follow my journey. You can also click on this other link and start to plan your own journey. Talk to you in a few weeks. And I remember thinking at first how strange this was because I hadn't seen it before.

Carrie Fox [00:12:35]:

And then I thought, I love this. I love every bit of this, because she invited us along the journey with us, and she reminded us that being out of the office is okay. And I think back to those early years when I was a business owner that I would stay. I would be the first one there and be the last one to go. Dinner would often be brought in, and we would work through dinner. And that was the tone that I would set. Right. There was no love in that.

Carrie Fox [00:12:58]:

There was no acknowledgement or understanding that we were more than our workplace. And from Beth Parker's little example with her out of office message, to all of the little ways we can communicate that we are more than what happens between those nine and 5 hours, I think are great little examples that make big impact, that we are, in fact, more than what happens during the workday.

Jennifer Norman [00:13:19]:

That's so true. And it's so nice to see the way that we do business changing. I think we got to an inflection point. We frankly got to a breaking point over the past few years. And now people are recognizing the joy of fulfillment and being a whole person, rather than feeling that they have to put on a mask when they go into the office and somebody else that they're not necessarily. I think that the idea of professionalism is different now. It's more about personability. And your professionalism has more to do with your reliability, getting your work done.

Jennifer Norman [00:13:53]:

You're doing an amazing job and having great skills. But let's all be people. Let's all be humans, right?

Carrie Fox [00:14:00]:

And think sometimes still people think about that idea as love, as romantic love, right? But that love of one another, the love of the human, the love of the work that we're in together, the love of the experience, that that is so much bigger and broader. It's how we show up as humans, right. And how we support one another through that.

Jennifer Norman [00:14:17]:

Yeah. Leading with love is. I know that that's a whole other topic, and it's so rich and inspiring. But truly, I think that the most courageous leaders will always think about love instead of fear. They'll think about, how can I do this so that I am displaying and my intent of my love and my true heart is really coming through and what I'm saying and what I'm doing, rather than the whole CYA communication.

Carrie Fox [00:14:42]:

Right, right. And there's another example that I share in the book, if you remember, about Stuart Butterfield at Slack, who is the founder of Slack.

Jennifer Norman [00:14:50]:

Right.

Carrie Fox [00:14:50]:

Enormous organization, very large tech company in Silicon Valley. And he believes very firmly that talent is equally distributed in the world, but opportunity is not. And wanted to find a way to challenge this notion a few years back that there's just not enough people in the world to fill all these tech jobs.

Jennifer Norman [00:15:09]:

Right.

Carrie Fox [00:15:10]:

That was a very common line that Silicon Valley was sharing. There's no place to go to fill all these jobs. And what's going to happen when we can't fill all of the cybersecurity jobs that we need? And so Stuart said, well, I believe that there are people everywhere that are ready and primed for these jobs, but we haven't been looking in the right places. And so he challenged and dared to ask, what if we developed a partnership with San Quentin Prison and worked with individuals who were returning citizens and created opportunities that weren't just jobs that got people back from prison into the workplace, but that were deeply wealth building jobs for individuals and families? And what could that actually do for the tech sector as a result? Right. That was deeply leading with love of the human.

Jennifer Norman [00:15:53]:

Absolutely. That is such a great example. And the other thing that I thought was, according to that same example that was leading with love is recognizing that there might be a bit of conflict with those individuals who were within the organization. They might be like, oh, what about safety? Bringing people in, former inmates from San Quentin and then inviting them to actually go to San Quentin and see what it's like and talk to these people and recognize they're not that different from you and I. And seeing similarities more than the, oh, the fear. And so breaking down those barriers and those walls to allow them to integrate more welcomely into their workplace, I thought was just fabulous. Absolutely fabulous.

Carrie Fox [00:16:35]:

Right? And risk is an interesting element here, too. There were a lot of people who said, this is the biggest risk we could take. What is this going to do for our company as we're trying to build our company? And his perspective and his colleagues were, well, what if we don't? What's the risk to the future of our society if we don't create better pathways? Right. And so I really appreciated how, by changing your perspective and then changing how you communicate about that perspective really can lead to lasting and long term change.

Jennifer Norman [00:17:02]:

Absolutely. It actually reminded me of Homeboy Industries, which I think is amazing, too. There's so many wonderful opportunities. And thank you for bringing that up, because it's very rare that I, on my podcast, talk about the incarceration and rehabilitation and getting people ready to enter into the workforce afterwards. But that, to me, is beauty. That is beauty in movement of humanity. And really thinking about everybody as really having a story to tell, having a heart and understanding that everybody's gone through something and we thought our biggest mistakes, and everybody is forgiveness. And that next chance to show that there is goodness in the world.

Carrie Fox [00:17:43]:

That's right.

Jennifer Norman [00:17:44]:

Surround ourselves with that kind of attitude and that kind of heart, then we will build it. That is the world that we will build.

Carrie Fox [00:17:52]:

Yeah.

Jennifer Norman [00:17:52]:

I would love to close on a note where you in your book talk about an acronym which is GEAR UP. It's so helpful as a tool for preparing for a challenge. Can you take us through what gear up stands for?

Carrie Fox [00:18:04]:

I happily will. And I set this up as this idea of when you're planning to. Maybe you're going out for a big ride on your bike, or you're preparing for a hike, or you're just going out for the day. You think about what's the gear you've got to bring with you. Right? How are you packing your bag and preparing for that outing? So we think about this same idea if you are a leader and you're preparing to show this care, courage, and clarity, what you need to have with you. So the GEAR UP principles, I'll just give you a quick overview of them. Each stand for something different. G is being genuine in your work, in your words, and in your approach, and listening carefully both to what people say and to what they're saying in between the words.

Carrie Fox [00:18:40]:

That's an important part of that. E is being expressive and being engaged. How your body language is reinforcing what you're saying right where your eyes are when someone is speaking, all matters when you're thinking about that engagement and expression. A is being active, taking people and situations seriously, rather than just waiting to see what happens next.

Jennifer Norman [00:19:00]:

Right?

Carrie Fox [00:19:00]:

R is being responsive. So that next step after being actively engaged is being responsive to what people are asking of you, acknowledging what you're hearing and seeing around you. Once you've done those things, you can then U update people on what kind of progress are you making and what you said you were going to do. And then P is power sharing. And it gets back a little bit to what we talked about earlier, that in many cases there are, well, I should say for anyone who's in a position of power, there are many, many ways we hold that power. There are also many, many ways we can share that power. So that gives you a quick overview of GEAR UP. And there's a lot more in the book about it, but it's a useful tool if you are thinking about all of the ways that you can lead as a caring, courageous leader.

Jennifer Norman [00:19:44]:

Oh, it's a great acronym to remember, and I want everybody to remember to take a look at Carrie's book, More Than Words. It's out now. I will put in the show notes where you can find it and also look up mission partners. It's a B Corporation, Certified B Corporation, and it's a woman owned business based on the East Coast and involved in social impact organizations. Carrie, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.

Carrie Fox [00:20:09]:

This was such a joy. You are sending me off with such good, wonderful energy. I love the work that you do, Jennifer, and for the space that you create.

Jennifer Norman [00:20:17]:

Thanks so much. Carrie, thank you for listening to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Be sure to follow, rate and review us wherever you stream podcasts. The Human Beauty Movement is a community based platform that cultivates the beauty of humankind. Check out our workshops, find us on social media, and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more at thehumanbeautymovement.com thank you so much for being a beautiful human.