Being Courageous After Spinal Cord Injury with Jocelyn Dettloff

Jennifer Norman:
Hello beautiful humans. Welcome to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast, your source for hope, healing, happiness and humanity. My name is Jennifer Norman. I'm the founder of The Human Beauty Movement and your host. This podcast is here to guide you on your journey of self love, empowerment, soul alignment and joy. With each episode, I invite beautiful humans from all corners of the globe to join me for open conversations about their life lessons and the important work that they are doing to help heal humankind. Take a moment now to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode. I'm so glad you're here, joining me for today's show.

Jennifer Norman:
Did you know that every year between 250,000 and 500,000 people experience spinal cord injuries globally? With many of these injuries resulting from unexpected accidents, these life changing events shift lives and create new challenges, often demanding an extraordinary level of resilience and reinvention. Today's guest, Jocelyn Dettloff, knows this journey firsthand. At just 26, a sledding accident while traveling in Namibia, Africa left her paralyzed. A fiercely independent world traveler, Jocelyn was faced with an unexpected new reality, navigating life on four wheels instead of two legs. But instead of letting this event define her limits, Jocelyn used grit, grace and humor to fuel her journey forward. Jocelyn's incredible path led her to embrace a career in fundraising, advocacy and motivational speaking. She discovered a love for wheelchair tennis, authored her memoir, It Rained in the Desert: One Woman's Story of Spirit and Resilience, and now serves as a major gifts director at the Mary Free Bed Rehabilitation Foundation where she once went for for her own rehabilitation. In this episode, you'll gain insights into adapting to life after major challenges, learn from Jocelyn's tips on resilience and positivity, and be inspired by her commitment to mentorship, community, and the unbreakable spirit of adventure. So tune in today for a truly uplifting story that reminds us all of the power of human determination and the lessons that life brings our way.

Jennifer Norman:
Welcome to the show, Jocelyn.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Oh my gosh. Thank you for having me as a guest. What a lovely introduction. Thank you.

Jennifer Norman:
Well, you are probably a person who needs no introduction because you are such a warrior and such a wonderful human being. And you are so open with your story, which is so courageous. And so I thank you first of all for being my guest today and for being so willing to help others through their challenges and adversities, through the power of your own story and your own message. So I'd like to start off with, obviously you were a world traveler before you were an adventure seeker and Then all of a sudden you found yourself not being able to do all the things that you were doing in the past. What were some of the biggest challenges that you faced while adjusting to this new way of moving through the world?

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Well, there are, first of all, just the physical how am I going to do X, Y and Z? I say occupational therapy portion of my recovery was the part that I hated the most. And I hated it because it was all about how are you going to put your shoes on, how are you going to get dressed, how are you going to take a shower, how are you going to do all of the things that you used to do and that you learned to do when you were three years old, but then having to relearn how to do them when you're 26. So there's that part of it. But at the same time, I'm one who embraces a challenge. I like to feel challenged. Like I have to work toward a goal, like I have to work towards something, something. So in a way it was always focusing on, okay, oh, I did this a little bit better, or like, oh, I'm going to learn how to do this. So there was that part of it.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
But then even from like when you're at Mary Free Bed, the rehab hospital, you're in a very safe environment, like everything is accessible. One of the programs and, or one aspect of rehab here is recreational therapy where they take you out into the community. And I remember my rec therapist, she was asking me what sorts of things I like to do and she had me pick where I wanted to go for like my first foray into the real world after being in the hospital for a couple weeks. So we went to a local bookstore because I really liked to read. I was an English major and oh my God. And it took me a couple weeks. Like she kept after me asking, where do you want to go? Where do you want to go? And kind of psychologically was like, I'm fine right here, I don't need to go anywhere. But it's such an important step, so to speak, to go back out into the real world.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
And I think I was just fearful of, oh my God, everybody's gonna look at me because I was still wearing my brace and everything from my accident. And but you know what? And she even said, people are pretty self centered. They don't pay as much attention to you as you think. And she was 100% correct. And I didn't really feel like people were looking at me all that strangely or anything like that. So that was a big first step and just knowing that I could feel, okay, I can go out in public and it's not going to be like this huge, like, big, scary monster type thing. So there's a reason why they put these sorts of things in your rehab plan so that you're ready to do certain things when you actually leave and get back out into the real world. But just going forward.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
I remember I kept a journal, which was extremely helpful for me. I'm usually not one to kind of like, vocally bear my soul, and I totally talk about how I feel. So my journal was extremely helpful in writing everything down. Because from the outside looking in, I think that people just really saw a super motivated woman who was going to take on any challenge, which, yeah, part of that was very true. But there was also a part that I was a little bit more, I think, angry. Angry and depressed about my situation, which the journal really helped with that. But then focusing on what's next or the next thing to come along really helped me stay motivated and always having a next thing to do, whether it be like a task of, okay, I'm going to, I don't know, clean out my sock drawer or that kind of thing, or like, oh, I'm gonna start applying for jobs. I'm going to start enhancing my computer skills, whatever that next thing is, to keep the next thing in front of you.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow, there's so much that might go through you emotionally when something like this happens and your life does change. And you were saying, oh, I hated occupational therapy, which is completely. It's legitimate and it's definitely founded. And I had a suspicion that a lot of people would fall into a depression where it's just like they pine for the days that they used to have. And so I was curious, in your journaling, do you think that your ability to journal allowed you to keep it enclosed in that journal, safe space, and then project and then be a bit more open and tackle things a little bit more courageously? Or I'm just wondering, like, if you didn't keep a journal, do you think that that might have been externalized a little bit more?

Jocelyn Dettloff:
It may have been externalized or. Well, knowing me, it probably would have been a little bit more detrimental because I internalize a lot of things. So the journal, I think, was my outlet and it helped me do a little processing and I kept them because before I started writing my book, I went and I read all my journals since my accident, and, oh, my goodness, like, I forgot how hard it was in the beginning. And it really made me so proud to see how far I had come with days of like, oh, first learning how to get into the car and having reread it and being at the point where, okay, I'm driving, I'm going to work, I'm going to tennis practice. I'm living a very quote, unquote normal life. It's hard to conceive of what life will be like when something that tragic or something happens like that at the beginning. But Mary Freebud is really great about connecting people with peer mentors and kind of people that have been through it and are further down the road.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
But also, even when you're first there, our tagline is restoring hope and freedom. So the therapist and even other patients like you may see people that are further down the road than you are. And it can be even a motivating factor of, oh, look at them. If they can do it. Well, I can do that too.

Jennifer Norman:
I can do it too.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Yeah, yeah. And so it just builds people. People do form lifelong friendships here. But even a big thing is like, when you are back into real life and back into navigating the world day or each day, it's like it kind of falls on you to make other people feel more comfortable. Because it's no big secret people are afraid of what they don't know. And I find this pretty common with everyone is like, children are great. And a lot of times if a child is curious about something, sometimes the parents might kind of pull the child away, or, oh, totally don't look at them, or, oh, don't stare. And the child may not know why.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Like, oh, this person looks completely fine to me. Why should I be afraid? Or why should I not talk to that person? So it's very much appreciated when either it can engage with the parent and then engage with the child. And I think that that just like, normalizes so much more to talk about it kind of thing. But, yeah, and especially being in fundraising, being in a role where I'm out talking to people. You know what? Sometimes it comes up in conversation and people feel comfortable enough to ask me why I use a chair. But then other times you just talk about everyday life.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow. I'm going to ask an ignorant question based upon a couple of things that you said, because I've certainly heard that after something like this happens, there's occupational therapy, there's physical therapy, but I hadn't necessarily always heard about recreational therapy. And I was wondering if that is common, if that is something that is required. I say required, and I'm using air quotes because I just don't know. It's an ignorant question, but it sounds like it was actually really helpful in getting you to feel like, yeah, I can get back out in the world again, not just learn how to tie my shoes and do the practical things and move my arms or et cetera, but actually feel like I can actually go and play tennis at some point. Is that something that is rare or is that something that is common?

Jocelyn Dettloff:
It is not as common as we would like it to be. First of all, it's not a therapy that is reimbursable by insurance. So it's something that Mary Free Bed does because it's really part of healing the whole person. We have a hugely robust wheelchair and adaptive sports program. It's kind of part of rehab. But with rec therapy, it connecting people with activities they enjoy, whether it be gardening, whether it be finding a new activity to do or finding a way to do an activity that you used to participate in or a hobby of some kind. So if you played cards for people who might not have full use of their hands, you know what they have racks that hold the cards for you kind of thing. And so I wish recreational therapy was something that everyone did.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
And, you know, some people do it some places, some rehab places do have it, and they do it in groups. But even individualized recreational therapy is crucial because that portion of getting back out into the community and doing activities, there is a lot of fear around it. And if you do it once, twice, three times before you, as we say, graduate from Mary Free Bed, it just makes you much more confident to go out and do it either on your own or when you get home with your family, with your friends. And another thing is that they. If you go out, like, your friends and family could go with you as well, so that they can also experience, like, oh, this is how we help. Help them get in and out of the car, put the wheelchair back together. Like, yeah, we involve family and friends in a lot of what we do.

Jennifer Norman:
So good. Wow. I'm curious if there's like a lot of other places like Mary Free Bed. And I'm certainly going to put all of the information for Mary Free Bed in the show notes so people know where to find a little bit more about the organization and learn a little bit about what you're doing there as well. But it seems like it was one of those steps that helped and allowed you to say, okay, well, what next? What more can I do? And to get back into, like, challenging yourself a little bit more, pushing yourself a little bit more and learning new ways to adapt and move through the world. I think that there are those incredible. I mean, we watched the Paralympics and I'm always just so blown away by the talent, by the support by the community, by how incredible it must be to be able to push your body to this certain place despite any kind of physical limitations. And it's phenomenally inspiring.

Jennifer Norman:
But then on the other side, there are some people that I think may be just a little bit too afraid or maybe physically they can't get that place. And I'm wondering, what do you think it is that separates those that might have a bit more determination or might be of that mindset? Like, yeah, I can do it. I'm going to continue learning and striving and growing and it may not be easy, but I'm gonna figure it out and strive a bit more. And I think that this is a powerful lesson for anybody, disability or non disabled, to really say, like, well, what is that about the mindset that makes me think like, okay, maybe I should just keep myself protected or maybe I should keep myself safe or versus maybe I should get out there, maybe I should try something else.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Well, I will say it is important to keep someone safe. Oh, just roll into the middle of like a busy street without caution.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
But of course I think a lot of it has to do with where people live. Like, do they live in a place that transportation is fairly easy for them to be able to get to things? Is transportation accessible for them so that they are able to get out and do things? It could be sometimes family life, friends, that type of thing. In terms of, okay, are people encouraging or do they have the, oh, no, I don't think you can do that. Here at Free Bed, gosh, everybody is just... So if you have a goal, if there's something for you to work on, people will try to figure out what's the best way to do that. Do you have a peer mentor? Do you have someone who kind of has been where you are and can say, oh hey, come along with me and do X, Y or Z. There's so many factors and one thing, psychologically therapy is a great thing. And honestly, my gosh, with telehealth and the popularity of being able to do online therapy now is so much easier.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
And I hope that thousands of people have been able to get access who maybe not have had access before or easy access, but it's dig deep and it's like every life has value and every life depend regardless of, oh, can you move your entire body or oh, do you have some kind of mobility challenge or illness? Or we live in such a culture that it's like, oh, you have to look perfect and you have to be young and you have to be energetic and all of these things. And oh my goodness, I mean, human life is precious. And regardless of disability or not, every life does have value to it. And I remember watching a documentary on Netflix called Crip Camp and I usually do. And it was all about like the early people with disabilities that fought for the rights right to get certain passage of the ada, other certain things into legislation. It was really emotional for me. Cause I'm just like, wow, what these people went through so that now I can get into places a lot easier and whatnot. And that was kind of my first experience of like the people that came before me and what they went through for the right and the freedoms that people have now.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
There's a long way to go still, let me just say that. But it's better than it was. Yeah, much better than it was. And another thing too is I had a sledding accident. It happened because of a decision that I made. And a lot of time, you know, depending on the reason why someone has a disability or an illness or was it the result of the action of another person. And I think that this is also where the whole psychological and therapy and working through that could be really helpful because you could do the blame game. Oh, because of fill in the blank.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
I mean, I never really contemplated, I never did the why me? And I never got down on myself and I never chastised myself for oh my gosh, why did you do that thing? And because I love adventure and I like going fast down hills. And yeah, it's just an accident. It's just something that happened. So there's so many factors as to what plays into what, resiliency and being able to move on and whatnot. But every situation is different. But peer, mentors and opportunity are two huge things.

Jennifer Norman:
That's so helpful. Thank you for sharing that. I'm thinking about how either the support system or loved ones can also either exacerbate a thought pattern or just kind of like a mental state where I can imagine that there are children who might get into accidents and the parents just want to do everything for them or even siblings just want to. And so it's not necessarily like that person who has had the accident may necessarily learn maybe as quickly or even at all on how to be more self sufficient with their new life. They're codependent on others, because that's kind of like the paradigm and the patterns that they've then created. And there might be this also the sense of guilt, to your point, about the psychological aspect of it, about why this happened, how this happened. And that could, you know, certainly that's interesting thing that could get in the way of just kind of healing. Just a holistic mind, body, soul healing. Definitely. Thanks for that.

Jennifer Norman:
So what was that process of acceptance like for you? It sounds like you had it relatively smoothly. It might have been just like a fairly short amount of time. But I'm curious, were there any key moments or experiences that helped you move towards acceptance at all?

Jocelyn Dettloff:
So when I had my accident, I had to be flown from the accident site to the capital city of Windhoek. And my doctor, even before the very first thing he said to me, even before I knew his name or anything like that, he said to me, I want you to know you'll probably never walk again. And there was just a little voice inside me that said, okay. And that's not to say that, oh, okay, I've totally accepted this. And this is how my life is going to be. I've always had the mindset of whatever physical capabilities I have. Like, this is what I have to work with today. And I'm going to use every bit of function that I possibly have.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
If by some medical miracle they come up with a cure, something for spinal cord injury, great, maybe I can take advantage of it. But just over time, this one day that I just remember, like, looking at that blue guy, handicap symbol, and I'm just like, wow, like, that's me. Like, that means me. And it was just a very, wow, this is something about me that I absolutely cannot change. I can't change it. I can't hide it. It's very obvious. And so there was that.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
And after I had a good cry about it, it was, I think, rather cathartic and just kind of cleansing. And it's just like, okay, this is part of me, but not all of me. And I do things a little bit different. I mean, it gone through psychotherapy and at different times and. Which has been very helpful. And I do take medication for depression, but it helps me function. It's tools. I use things that are available to me so that I'm able to do the things I want to do in life.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
And even, like, I'm independent and I don't like to ask for help, but if asking for help allows me to do a certain activity, and I'm like, okay, I'm going to ask for help to do that. If I need a certain kind of piece of equipment to do it, okay, I'll get the equipment so that I can do it. And to get over my stubbornness of, no, I don't want to ask for help. And you know what? Life is better sometimes when things are shared and people just want to help. And I do remember one time a friend said to me, like, oh, just get over yourself and let me help you. Okay, so key moments and it. There will always be things that I miss just thinking, oh, how easy it is to just like hop out of the car and like run in and get something. And I don't think those things will ever go away.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
And then I've also learned that losing the ability to walk and do things the way that I used to, there's grief with that. I mean, it's loss of function, but it's similar, could be similar to a death or a loss of something else. And there's always going to be some grief around that. And I have learned that there is no finish line in terms of. It kind of surprised me a couple years afterward, I don't know, a song comes on the radio or something just kind of strikes you and you just have this pang of, oh, I miss that. Usually have a good cry about it and you can move on. But I'm 27 years post accident now and I still get those pangs sometimes.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, I was often curious. Like when you go to sleep and you dream, do you dream that your legs are moving and you can run and then what is it like when you wake up?

Jocelyn Dettloff:
In general, I'm not one that remembers my dreams a lot, but I do dream both that I'm in a chair and that I'm walking. And I've even had dreams where, and this is just one example where I'm walking and I approach a flight of stairs and whoever I'm with, I just say, I can't go up those. So even though I'm standing in front of the stairs, there was another dream that I had of my friend wanted me to drive his car. And I drive with hand controls. And I was not in a chair in my dream, but I was like, no, I can't drive your car. So I mean just kind of some things like that. But the mind's funny.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
But now I probably, if I am in a dream, I'm probably in a chair more than not.

Jennifer Norman:
But not uncommon for it being newer, a newer situation to have those kinds of kind of unconscious feelings and thoughts coming through, yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
I'm curious because a lot of people just who are not disabled sometimes want to say, like, I don't want to mess up. I don't want to say the wrong thing. I don't want to do the wrong thing. I just want to know, like, how should I act? How should I behave? What should I say? And are sometimes people tiptoe into the point of, like, kids just being open and saying what's on their mind, and then the, the parents being like, no, stop, that's embarrassing. You know, that's rude. Don't go up to and talk.

Jennifer Norman:
Meanwhile, I have a disabled son. Same thing. Like, if a little boy comes up to my son and said, what happened to him? Or what's wrong with him? I'm like, perfectly fine telling the story and just saying, oh, he's got a mitochondrial disorder. But the parents just are devastated. They think it's just so rude and think, is this okay to talk about, like, tiptoeing on eggshells? But that's me. And not everybody is alike. And certainly I don't want to speak for the entire disabled community. And I don't think that perhaps this conversation is about your experience and how your thoughts are. And they could be very helpful for some. But definitely every individual is unique and different and wishes for in social interactions to be different.

Jennifer Norman:
But how is it for you? Like, if somebody wants to be helpful or just as curious, what would you say is polite or off limits? Or is there such a thing?

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Yeah, I always... asking is huge just in terms of an aspect of my job is doing some event organizing. And it probably is good that I use a chair because some of our donors also may have a disability of some kind or use a chair or mobility device. And instead of. I mean, it makes me laugh sometimes because people are, oh, do you think the person would want this? Or, oh, do you think they would want that? And oh, here's a novel idea. Ask them. They're not going to be offended. I mean, the fact that you're thinking about it ahead of time and would you prefer this or would you prefer that? So asking someone is huge. And even like when, if I'm shopping at the grocery store, sometimes people will ask me, oh, you know, do you need me to get something for you? Or a lot of times, you know, I ask somebody if I can't reach.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
So. And it's also respecting their answer. Instead of being, if they say, oh, no, I got this, but they also just carry on with, oh, no, no, I will push you, or oh, I will help you. You need to respect whatever answer they give you. And a lot of it is in the delivery. How you ask something, oh, do you mind if I ask why you use a chair? Asking something like, oh, why are you crippled? Okay, not so great. How you ask, oh, what's wrong with you? Well, nothing's wrong with me. What's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? So again, a lot of it is intention and you can kind of how people say something. And again, usually I don't mind being asked, but I do have other friends that are.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
You don't know if it's going to really conjure up a terrible memory for someone, but you can ask. And if the person doesn't want to tell you, they will let you know. And again, just coming at it from a... Like a genuineness and kind of a caring aspect instead of, oh, I just want to know, or, oh, I just want to be really nosy, or so how you say certain things and people learn by their mistakes and not. And people shouldn't beat themselves up over something that they said. For someone who's blind or visually impaired, how often do we say, oh, see you later. Oh, no, I'm blind, I'm not gonna see. It's a figure of speech.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
I often say when I walk into a room or when we're playing wheelchair tennis. Oh, going to run after it. And so things like that. But if you do make some huge faux pas or... I mean, one of my things that I just us hate beyond anything is people use wheelchairs or they use a cane or a walker or not. I'm not bound to my wheelchair. I'm not confined to my wheelchair. And so a lot of that is practice or habit.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
But yeah, being wheelchair bound or confined to a wheelchair, it just sounds so restricting and limiting. No, people use their devices, whatever the device is. And also, if you're going to open a door for anybody, why don't you. Then you would open a door for maybe somebody who might have some difficulty opening one just to say, oh, that you would treat them like everybody else. But what I have noticed is people make eye contact with everybody. Not because I do notice that people don't make as much eye contact with me probably as they used to. Just a couple years after being in a chair, like, I had an extra manual chair and a friend of mine went to the mall with me and she used my other chair. And her experience, you know, that's one thing that she said is when she would pass people, and she is somebody like very Assertive and people would always look her in the eye, but that did not happen when she started using a chair.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
So, yeah. Try to be mindful and just treat people like people.

Jennifer Norman:
So wheelchair bound? No. Crippled? No.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Confined. No. Wheelchair confined.

Jennifer Norman:
What is your opinion on disabled person versus person with a disability versus differently abled?

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Oh, personally, a lot of times it's personal preference, but, you know, because people want to say the right thing.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
I don't think you can go wrong with leading with person. I like typically because everybody's a person first and I mean differently abled. Okay. People of all abilities or different abilities. I don't hate the word disability, but I mean, I have one. But in writing, people who are blind or visually impaired, people who are paras or people who have a disability or people with MS. Yeah. We're all people first.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
And so that is definitely my preference. But you'll talk to other... Even some disability advocacy groups and they lead with disabled and they have their philosophy as to why they do that.

Jennifer Norman:
Yes.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
And it's more. Yeah. From a sense of pride. So. But yeah, my preference. Not speaking for Mary Free Bed. Speaking for Jocelyn Dettloff. Yeah.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Person first.

Jennifer Norman:
Definitely person first. So person who uses a wheelchair rather than wheelchair user is more your preference?

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Yes, yes.

Jennifer Norman:
Got it.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
But given my druthers. Wheelchair user over confined to a wheelchair.

Jennifer Norman:
If you had to do like a hierarchy of this but not this or that.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
I'd like to hear that.

Jennifer Norman:
Yep. Yep. Good, better, best. Or worst. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So those were very helpful as far as, you know, some tips for people and how they can approach somebody and speak with respect and curiosity rather than not saying anything at all.

Jennifer Norman:
Not asking questions. And I guess there's also a don't be afraid to say the wrong thing. I think it's better to, and then get corrected and learn from your mistake. And then, otherwise, I think that there's just this very uncomfortable, awkward divide where people are like, I just don't want to say the wrong thing. And then they end up ostracizing and alienating.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Yeah. And even just the reason. So I serve on the My Condo Association. I serve on the board. And we are just going through this, like amending our bylaws and whatnot. And the law firm that we were using, there was some language in there and it said something, I believe it said, like disabled or handicapped or something like that. And I said like, oh, in this document, meaning ours and every document, it should say, oh, no person with a disability.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
And I wasn't mean about it. And I wasn't like, oh, how could you be so dumb? To put... Well, actually, anyways. But it was my association that wrote the bylaws. But anyways. But no, the lawyer. I mean, she was very appreciative because...

Jennifer Norman:
Yes.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Not only in our documents, but in any documents for any association or just the language they use, you know, to be person first.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. So is there issue with just like handicap parking? Because I think that people know like that or believe that that's pretty much just what it's called. It's like, this is a handicap parking spot. That's okay?

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Yeah, I prefer accessible parking, but again...

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, good point, good point.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Yeah, I just prefer accessible. Or some people just say ADA parking, You know, ADA parking or accessible parking. But yeah, I mean, handicap parking has been in there, has been used for so long.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
But I've just noticed like some differences and I prefer accessible.

Jennifer Norman:
Got it. Yeah. No, makes perfect sense now that you've said it. I think that's the first time I've actually heard somebody say it, and it makes really good sense to me.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
But I'm a change maker, so...

Jennifer Norman:
You are. Exactly. Speaking of change making, I wanted to just mention that I feel like we are so blessed in America to have the ADA. It was a long time coming and it really has helped improve accessibility for so many. And going to other countries, you just see how different it is in terms of accessibility and mobility and being able for disabled people to get into places. Cobblestone streets, stairs, small alleyways, like, not accessible bathrooms, no way into a shop because there's all these stairs. Like, it's so dramatically different in a lot of other countries, even very, very advanced countries at that. Yet there are still so many improvements that we can make, I think, as a society in general.

Jennifer Norman:
So I'm curious, are there things that you come across more often than not that you would be like, if I had to wave my magic wand, this would change.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Unfortunately, where to begin? I know it's not a two hour podcast... Attitudes are one thing. And to see people with disabilities as a community to be valued and catered to in terms of we have money to spend. And so here in Grand Rapids, the Mary Free Bed YMCA was built. It's been around for a few years now, but it is the first completely universally designed Y in the US. And there are no steps in the building. There's a huge ramp that goes... Connects the first level down to the second, lower level.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
And I remember being involved in seeing plans for the building before it was even built. And I almost cried. No, it was just like. Oh my gosh. Like they thought of us FIRST, because nobody ever does. And it was just such a, oh my gosh. Like, this is what it's like for people to be mindful of... Of this is how to be accessible for everything. Just because.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
And I get it, if you're in the building industry, you have standards, you have codes that you have to meet. And yeah, a lot of times they're codes for minimums. But like you can still be within the code and do something a little bit different. Oh, my goodness. And because I like to travel and have played wheelchair tennis and have traveled across the country and elsewhere. Oh my God.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Ask any chair user who travels. And there is just a long list of. Oh my gosh. Like the hotel. Like, they almost had it right.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
If you have... A lot of times, if you have a tub and they have a bench that folds down in the tub in an accessible room, the tub is at the very back of the shower and the shower controls are at the very front. So how might one sit on the bench and reach however far the that is in front of you to turn on the shower? So now you have some newer hotels and they're kind of changing the configuration. They're putting the handheld shower and controls on the side so they're closer to the bench. But then a lot of hotels now are also going to, instead of like individual soap and like the shampoo and conditioner, they're going to these full size things that are usually mounted on the wall either right behind us and out of our reach or to the side and we can't reach them. And high beds, oh my gosh. Even in accessible rooms, the beds tend to be high, which. Yeah, when you have like an 8 inch height differential from your wheelchair trying to get into the bed, it can be a bit of a challenge.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
So those are some things and just some businesses who may not see the value in making their entrance accessible. What do you say to that? Oh, well, we don't really get many people who use chair. Well, yeah, you don't because they can't get in. That's why you don't get chair users who frequent your business. And I get it. It depends on the area of the city that you live in.

Jennifer Norman:
Even parents with strollers. It's even difficult for anybody who's wheeling anything.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Yes, yes, true. And I have even heard some people like, oh, I was in a wheelchair for three months. I know exactly what you're going through. Well, you're out of it. So. No, I mean, kind of, yes, but. And the thing is, is, like, encountering an inaccessible situation is not something that happens, like, once a year. I mean, it happens pretty frequently, but it's also because, like, I choose to go out of my regular environment, go to a new store, travel to a new place, do a new thing, or even Grand Rap is pretty good, I have to say.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Of course, there are some older parts that are not as great as others, but usually if you have to, like, you can always find people to help as well. But a lot of it is education about things and having people make it a priority, because chances are, if something is easier or if something is accessible and allow or good for somebody with a disability to use, chances are it's a lot easier for anybody else to use it, too. Eliminating steps and just having a ramp or. Yeah, that's just one example.

Jennifer Norman:
No, so helpful. Absolutely helpful. And, yeah, the thoughtfulness that is put in and actually having people with disabilities to be consultants on design or feedback to that situation, as well as actually acting on the feedback that you're receiving, it goes a very, very long way.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
It does, yes.

Jennifer Norman:
Looking back, I'm curious. Are there any lessons that you've learned that you feel others might benefit from in terms of what would you say? Would that be some of those pieces of advice or information that you'd want to share with those that are living with disabilities or even those that are just going through a challenge that they're looking to overcome?

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Well, one thing is, whatever life is like right now, it's not going to be like that forever. Especially when you look at, like, going through harder, harder times. And I know people focus a lot on gratitude, but because every day I write down, I don't have a lot of time to, like, journal as much as I used to. So I usually I write down three things just that just happened that day and three things I'm grateful for. And some days it could be, oh, my gosh, I am just so thankful that I have a home roof over my head. And I mean, it is. Some days it's harder to find things to be thankful for than others, but be willing to accept help. Gosh.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
And in our culture, it's just not, though, oh, I'm, you know, so independent. Ooh, we can just do it ourselves. Or, oh, there's something. You don't want to seem weak if you ask for help, but, oh, my goodness, I just wish I do. I really wish we had more of a we culture instead of a me culture. And when it comes time to being a para. I do have you use of my two arms. I have had kind of a shoulder thing that I've been dealing with for like the past yearish or so.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
And well, so I drive what's called a Mazda 5. I. I don't have a minivan with a ramp and all that. So to get in and out of the car or right now to get in the car, there's something called a slide board or a transfer board that is used. It kind of bridges the gap. So you stick the board between like me and the object and slide over. And even like, I need that right now to get into my tennis chair play and I need it to get into the car and all right, I could be vain and be like, oh, okay, I'm not going to use my slide board. All right, well then you know what? I'm not getting in my car and going anywhere and I'm not getting in my tennis chair to play tennis, an activity that I enjoy.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
So a lot of times I got to put our ego aside. And there is so a lot of value to getting back to doing an activity or doing it in an activity that just might make you feel more like yourself. It may not solve all of your problems, it might not. Whatever certain issue it is that is staring you in the face, but that just might bring you some joy and some pleasure which help you deal with the situation a little bit differently and it just makes you feel better.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, beautiful words, Jocelyn Dettloff. Thank you so much for being my guest today and for sharing your story. Oh my gosh.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
Wonderful. You are amazing. You are.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh no, you are amazing. I really appreciate you so very much and I think that a lot of people probably learned a lot today. So thank you.

Jocelyn Dettloff:
I hope so.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you for listening to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Be sure to follow, follow rate and review us wherever you stream podcasts The Human Beauty Movement is a community based platform that cultivates the beauty of humankind. Check out our workshops, find us on social media, and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more at thehumanbeautymovement.com. Thank you so much for being a beautiful human.