AI, Humanity & the Future of Connection with Rashad Woods

Jennifer Norman:
When two podcasters get together, magic can definitely happen. That's why I'm so excited to introduce you to my guest today, Rashad Woods. Rashad is a Detroit based podcaster, entrepreneur and martial artist whose work weaves together curiosity, creativity and personal growth. He's the creator and host of the TRON Podcast, which stands for The Randomness of Nothing, where he invites listeners into deep, unpredictable conversations that explore the hidden links between ideas, people and experiences. His show moves fluidly from psychology and pop culture to entrepreneurship and innovation with one unifying theme, the power of asking better questions beyond the mic. Rashad brings more than a decade of martial arts training in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai, shaping his mindset around resilience, shape humility, and constant learning. He often parallels the discipline of the mat with the discipline of entrepreneurship, showing that progress is built on showing up, embracing discomfort, and growing through every challenge. Rashad's mission is to elevate human potential by helping people lead with authenticity, purpose and self awareness.

Jennifer Norman:
Mentoring creators, guiding businesses, or amplifying unheard voices. He's a bridge between inspiration and action, a modern day philosopher with a fighter's focus. In this conversation, you'll gain insights on turning curiosity into creative impact, lessons from martial arts that translate into leadership and entrepreneurship, tools for leading with authenticity and intention and motivation to find meaning in the beautiful randomness of life. So let's get ready for an intriguing dialogue with a man who embodies the beautiful randomness of everything. Rashad Woods.

Jennifer Norman:
Welcome to the show, Rashad.

Rashad Woods:
Thank you. Thank you. I'm blushing right now because I had never really been described in that fashion before. This is. I got some expectations of myself now to make up to that, you know, straight up.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, everybody's waiting for a juicy conversation because I know that you have heard so many interesting nuggets of fascinating wisdom just as I have. It's such a blessing being a podcast host, isn't it?

Rashad Woods:
It is, because at the end of the day, you have to be willing to put yourself on that ledge. You have to be willing to. It's funny being on this side of it because I'm typically the one asking questions.

Jennifer Norman:
Right, right.

Rashad Woods:
And I make people bring things out. But now here I am on the other side of it and you're like, you better be able to go there. You better be able to kind of bear your soul a little bit in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable because ultimately I can't ask of others what I won't ask of myself straight up.

Jennifer Norman:
It's really fascinating. And a lot of times it's hard to think of, like, well, what is my podcast going to be about? And it takes some thought, like coming up with The Human Beauty Movement, you know, came from my background in beauty, but wanting to kind of move it into the beauty of being a human being, of humans, no matter what form, race, shape, color.

Rashad Woods:
Absolutely.

Jennifer Norman:
Background, like no matter who you are, you are. And so I wanted the show to be about that. And here you are, my beautiful guest. And I want to learn about The Randomness of Nothing because it is such an intriguing name. And so I want to hear how you came up with that, what inspired it and then has it really blossomed from there from your original expectation?

Rashad Woods:
It really has. What's funny about it is that my ironically, my hugest inspiration was Keanu Reeves. He had a Roku series that was a 10 part series, World's biggest movie star, easily one of, if not the. And he had a documentary series on Roku where it was. He visited different locations of how things operated and functioned, right? So he saw an artist in New York that was a sculptor. He went to this place, either Norway or Sweden, where this, this architect built a restaurant that was halfway sloped in some water. He built his own motorcycles. And here I was thinking the world's biggest movie star is at his heart, a geek who did not, right? And so, like, you know, you're like, man, you know, this guy could be doing a million other things with his free time, right? Sitting on his laurels, making another movie, and yet here he is talking to regular people.

Rashad Woods:
How does that work? I've always been fascinated by this. What did this do? He had a Netflix series about aliens. Whether you believe or you don't, it was his own curiosity. And I said, you know what? I was like, man, that. That kind of seems like me. And so it kind of evolved where I'm always watching documentaries, I'm always reading about random facts and things that people may not know. But when you find people that do know it, it makes for a fascinating conversation.

Rashad Woods:
And so it's beautiful. It's a wonderful thing and you can weave it. And so I was like, okay, well, if I can find out kind of this Discovery Channel slash entrepreneur thing, maybe I got a little lane I can focus and work with here. And that's. And that's where it boiled down to, okay, Bob, you created this widget. How did you create this widget? Well, I was always curious about widgets as a kid. I broke stuff down and built stuff back up. Okay, who did you learn from? Who is your mentor? How did you create that into a successful business? Well, this is how I did it.

Rashad Woods:
And then I failed fall flat on my face along the way. But eventually I figured it out. I was like, okay, I think I can do that. And so that's how I kind of started coming up with it. The Randomness of Nothing is kind of like a little bit of a broad statement in that I can weave, whether it's food, whether it's fitness, whether it's history, whether it's. I just talked to a wonderful woman who's a head of The Earth Organization, Barbara Wiseman, and she basically was talking about how she gets. She finds water in places where there doesn't seem to be. It's a drought land.

Rashad Woods:
They have to drill to find water. And next to the area could have potentially have sustainable water in an area, whether it's a farmer or whether it's an impoverished country. And you're just like, I would have never have known that if I had not done this podcast. And those are the type of things that I take very seriously because it's invaluable information.

Jennifer Norman:
There's so much richness in the idea of like, well, what is our purpose? And then the fact that we are so curious and we like to innovate, we like to create, we like to invent, we do all of these things and then it's like, look what we were able to manifest. Look what we were able to create and how far we've come, especially in the last hundred years.

Rashad Woods:
Absolutely.

Jennifer Norman:
Just based on all of these innovations building on themselves. It's just been exponential.

Rashad Woods:
Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Norman:
Technological growth. Oh, it's really wild.

Rashad Woods:
Yeah. I watched a documentary once on the transatlantic cable lines. And so the transatlantic cable lines was how the telegraph system worked from Europe to the US and so basically it was on the coast of like Nova Scotia and Canada. So they wanted to be able to trade in real time price or do commodities trading or purchase goods from another continent to another. Long story short, it took years to put those together. They're at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean. That's the precursor to the Internet. Right.

Rashad Woods:
Those things. Right. So now you have a situation where people who had no point of reference to work with, who literally were just trying to figure it out along the way, and now you have the Internet, really actually 150, 25 years before it actually became your local fiber optic network in your own backyard. The things we take advantage of, we don't realize we're sitting at the bottom of the ocean. It blows your mind.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, it does. Absolutely blows my mind. Even when I think about, like, I was actually last weekend, I was in New York City, where I used to live in New York, and I was visiting family. I actually saw Keanu Reeves on Broadway in Waiting for Godot.

Rashad Woods:
Really?

Jennifer Norman:
And talk about, like, you know, he and Alex Winter got back together, you know, Bill & Ted. They're doing this Broadway show which is all about, like. Like talking about, what is my purpose? Why am I here in the midst of all this absurdity? So it's not unlike what you're talking about with the randomness of nothing for sure. I think he's carried that as a through line, even as he's on Broadway. But here we are on a subway, and we're like, oh, my gosh, we're going underwater. And I'm like, how? Like, my mind gets blown. How in the world did they decide, okay, we're just gonna put this tunnel underneath all this water?

Rashad Woods:
Yep. Yes.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. Yeah.

Rashad Woods:
Yes.

Jennifer Norman:
It really does. It does amaze me what we have been able to do and create.

Rashad Woods:
Yes.

Jennifer Norman:
For just helping ourselves to make more conveniences and get by.

Rashad Woods:
Correct.

Jennifer Norman:
And then, of course, yeah, we get to AI, where it's like, oh, my.

Rashad Woods:
Gosh, are we replaced? Right.

Jennifer Norman:
Are we replacing ourselves?

Rashad Woods:
That's real. That's real. You know what I mean? And so now I've always been fascinated, too, because think of how you have instant gratification of a purchase or data that you can look it up, but it didn't necessarily speed up the process of how it got made. You order a pizza. Right now you're calling the pizza place 10 minutes after you place the orders, and ready, we're 10, 15.

Jennifer Norman:
And you're like, when is it coming? It's been 11 minutes.

Rashad Woods:
11 minutes. And the poor chef is like, stop calling me so I can make my damn. I can make the damn pizza. Right. Oh, my bad. But you think because it got ordered and you got your email that suddenly it still could. Didn't have to be cooked.

Jennifer Norman:
So impatient.

Rashad Woods:
Yeah, right, right. And so now, like, you would order something, and before you didn't mind waiting a week if you had a catalog. Right. So they had, like, the East Bay catalog to buy gym shoes. Right? Right. You look at what gym shoe you wanted, you fill out a money order, you'd look the serial UPC code, and you'd mail it off and you didn't care. Waiting two months for a pair of shoes. Try that now.

Rashad Woods:
Try that. You know what I mean? It's impossible. You don't have those shoes in four days, three days. Somebody did something wrong.

Jennifer Norman:
It's true. I think we've been doing so many things as human beings to make our lives more convenient, to be safer, to make things more efficient, safer, easier, just more comfortable. All of these things faster. And so, yeah, we've seen this gradual uptick where literally compressing space and time.

Rashad Woods:
Yes.

Jennifer Norman:
And so it's the more that we like, even with like these new innovations. I remember when first AI came out and you could see what you could do. People, oh my God. But it was a little bit rudimentary. There'd be like an arm sticking out weird here. And then, like, you know, wait a month and then it looks like, oh my God, you can't even tell the difference between real or fake. But we're like, we have such a short term memory of like thinking about novelty.

Jennifer Norman:
Like, we're always expecting the next best thing instantaneously. And so the more that the world moves in that direction, it's not like we're necessarily saving time because everybody is moving in that direction.

Rashad Woods:
Correct.

Jennifer Norman:
Everybody is saving the same amount of time.

Rashad Woods:
Right.

Jennifer Norman:
And so we're all kind of just creating this churn, Right. And I think that the big question is, well, what would we do with all of this extra time that we've just now saved?

Rashad Woods:
Right? And there's. It's funny is that I think of like the Twilight Zone where there was an episode where there was a bank teller and he was reading all the time. And then a nuclear bomb exploded, right? And then he went, he had all the books in the world to read. And then he trips, he breaks his glasses and he had all the time to read. And now he said, it's not fair. So now you got what you wanted, but now you didn't get a chance to take advantage of it. So when you look at artificial intelligence, it really has invaded your spaces a bit. Because now it's a case of everything's like, think about a grocery checkout line right now.

Rashad Woods:
How annoying is it you can't talk to a person when you actually have any error that takes place on that grocery checkout line, anything if it doesn't go exactly perfect, right? You're like, first it was 12 items, now it's 21 items. Now the person has to come up and scan their little key code card. And you're like the rage is just boiling up to your head because all you wanted was these five things, and it's taking you 10 minutes to get in and out of the store. And you're like, where's the damn teller? Can I just have a teller? Seriously? Those are the things. Those are the downsides that we're gravitating ourselves towards.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, yeah, it's true. I wanted to talk about the fact that you grew up just outside of Detroit, and you're now you're a dad of three girls. Congrats. Girls are awesome.

Rashad Woods:
They are. I do love them. They're really, really.

Jennifer Norman:
I have one son, and I think that kids just in general, just. We. I think we get reborn when we have kids. But I'm just curious, did you change? What were you like pre girls and then like, girl daddy? Was there some sort of a switch? I'm curious about 150% identity.

Rashad Woods:
I mean, anybody who saw me would say, how did this guy end up being a dad? Because it was the last person I expected to have kids, right? It was. And then, you know what's funny is, is two things happen to you. You realize, you kind of start taking stake in your own mortality because you realize if you had them at the age. I had my first kid when I was 30. Right, so you're closer to the end of where you're at, and you're seeing their beginning, right? No, just. Just, you know, not necessarily. I hope I live forever, right? I hope I live forever. But it starts to become, okay.

Jennifer Norman:
30 is the new 20.

Rashad Woods:
It is. But I'm sitting on the different side of the table now. Now that I'm sitting on the parent table, I'm sitting on the grocery cart. And now you're asking me the questions, right? And now I have to be a better listener. And I was a terrible listener because I always talked. But I had to learn to be more patient, right? To be understanding that they may ask me the same thing three and four and five and six times, and I couldn't just have that same reaction of, well, you should just know that. No, you actually. You shouldn't know that, because how would you know? Right? And then watching them, the most fascinating part about being a parent is that they have access to technology that I did not.

Rashad Woods:
Right? So they don't know what it's like to go to a blockbuster. They don't have the understanding of what it was like to wait for a phone call and share a phone in a house.

Jennifer Norman:
So I remember my stepdaughter asked me, what's a record?

Rashad Woods:
Yeah, yeah. Little things like that. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like, real talk. Real talk.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Rashad Woods:
You know, or waiting for a music video that you actually like. Waiting to see the video. Now they just pop it on the premiere. Right. So now it's a case of my patients. And then they're smarter than we are. But I think they also have less people skills. Right.

Rashad Woods:
You don't get to emoji everything in real life. You don't get to text. You really have to interact with people. You may have to actually see their facial expressions. So those little things get lost because they'll text somebody more than they'll talk to somebody.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Rashad Woods:
You know what I mean? Or. And it's. I'll just leave it with this, too. When you were younger, it didn't matter if you were gone all day, but now that the world has convinced you that the world is more dangerous, even though statistics, statistics have shown that it's not, you don't want them gone all day. Even though they have a cell phone, even though you have a parental control on the cell phone, even though you can GPS locate your kid if they're gone for seven, eight, nine, you know, five, six hours, you're like, where's my kid? You're gone all day as a kid.

Rashad Woods:
So it's just. World got smaller.

Jennifer Norman:
And the other thing, too is like, because when back in the day, we would, like, the parents would just let kids just run. And then news makes it seem. And happenstance makes it seem like the world is a scary place and there's weirdos out there and you have to protect your kids and you have to keep them inside because if they go outside, then it's scary. Something might happen. And so we have done it to ourselves. We've enclosed our kids. We keep them in front of screens.

Jennifer Norman:
We've created more and more screens and more conveniences to make it easier to just be within our four walls and not go outside and get the kind of activities that help to nurture a fully formed, functioning human being.

Rashad Woods:
Exactly.

Jennifer Norman:
That's one with nature. We're kind of just isolating a lot of our youth, and our youth are really crying for real connection. There's, like, this whole loneliness epidemic and a lot of mental health issues, and a lot of it is tied to screen time. A lot of it, it is tied to the things that they are seeing.

Rashad Woods:
Yes.

Jennifer Norman:
Which people really have no business at that kind of age, seeing. But it's just too easy. Even like you said, with parental controls, it's just too easy to get around. And the peer pressure.

Rashad Woods:
Yeah. And the other thing about it is, too, is that sometimes I don't think kids have. It's funny if they play sports. Like, when I played sports, the coach was cussing at me, screaming at me. I mean, I got. I had coaches like, I'll keep the language clean, but it's like, now you hear a kid, it's like, my coach is yelling at me. It's like, really, like, seriously, like, really. The coaches.

Rashad Woods:
And then when you actually hear the details of it, you're like, that ain't even close to what I had to deal with.

Jennifer Norman:
Do you want to know something funny? When I was young, I was a gymnast, and in the gym, the coaches were smoking.

Rashad Woods:
Never. You wouldn't.

Jennifer Norman:
That's the way that we grew up.

Jennifer Norman:
Movie theaters, airplanes, smoking, smoking, smoking every night, all the time.

Rashad Woods:
And it was just nothing. Right. Because smoke on a plane. Right. You know what I mean?

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Rashad Woods:
So now you look at all these things that have people take advantage of. They don't think at. Now it's like the coach has to take sensitivity classes and stuff like that. And you're just like, like, listen, man, I probably wouldn't have made any. There would have been a coach I would have had. If you would have had to try to put them through the courses of sensitivity on your feelings. Because. But there's some positives that come from that, because people really were mentally scarred from some things, but at the same time, it insulated people, particularly some of these younger ones from, for lack of a better term, meeting the jerk and dealing with the jerk.

Rashad Woods:
You have to. You have to learn to deal with the jerk. Like, the jerk could be anybody. It could be. So being accustomed to just.

Jennifer Norman:
You could be the jerk.

Rashad Woods:
I could be the jerk. Yeah. But like, like, you know what I'm saying? I'm giving. I'm giving you the B version of what I would call that person. Right?

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm curious because I think that to your point, like, we used to say a whole lot of stuff, and. And for many years, people are like, oh, my God, that is so not PC. How could we have had people saying this sort of stuff on tv? And then I think a part of society felt like it had gone too far and that there were a lot of people that were just offended for the sake of being offended.

Rashad Woods:
Correct.

Jennifer Norman:
Like, I'm sure. I'm curious what your take is on that. Like, do you think that there was a point at which, you know what? It really was a better situation where we felt like, hey, let's be empathetic and sensitive to how we're speaking to other people or about other people, that the jokes that we might be making or things that we might just. Just not even realize could be offensive versus just saying, oh, it's just talk, it's no big deal.

Rashad Woods:
Like, yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
What do you think?

Rashad Woods:
I think you hit. There's a nice little gray area. There's a nice little middle ground in between there. Right. Because at the end of the day, you don't want to necessarily be the word police or the thought police. Right. I mean, Archie Bunker took place in the 60s, and he generally had a problem with people who were his neighbors, and that's who he truly was. I think that people say things sometimes privately.

Rashad Woods:
It's like the movie, the Straight Out of Compton movie. Eazy E found out he had AIDS, and then he used a homosexual epithet to say what he wasn't, and he caught AIDS.

Rashad Woods:
They felt, they all thought that it was a pretend, primarily gay disease. And he used the F word on that. That's how people talked in the eighties until they found out more information about that respective disease. And so if you were to remove that from the conversation, you do an injustice to the actual conversations that were being had in real time by people. Right. Oh, you should clean up the language that people weren't calling people those words in the 70s and 80s and 90s. No, you have to say, you have to tell the authentic truth. You really do.

Rashad Woods:
And people have to deal with it.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. Interestingly enough, I remember when I was wanting to learn a little bit more about DEI and I went to these DEI trainings, and to be honest with you, I felt like they were doing more harm than good. I felt like I was paralyzed afterwards. I didn't know. I was afraid to open my mouth. I might just stick my foot in my mouth and say something wrong.

Rashad Woods:
Right.

Jennifer Norman:
There was this example. They showed a picture. Is this woke or is this whack? And at the time, woke was positive. It's not. Not today. But back then, they were like, is this picture. Is this woke, or is it whack?

Jennifer Norman:
And it's like, okay, the Pepsi commercial with Kendall Jenner. Yes. Everybody thought that was whack. Right. I mean, that was an example of whack. But then there was this picture in, like, a grocery store of a margarita stand. There was, like, a promotion, and then there was this. Almost like a puppet that looked like a mariachi.

Rashad Woods:
Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
With the sombrero and everything on the margaritas. And half of the people were like, oh, that's whack. And half of the people were like, what's wrong? What's wrong with that? And I remember the lesson was, this is blatant stereotyping. And I was like, seems kind of festive. Like, I couldn't figure it out. I was like, why is it not offensive to me? Like, I go into a store, I see a margarita.

Rashad Woods:
Like, all of a sudden, you're going to loosen up a little bit. Like, oh, man, you guys are having fun, you know?

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. And so I was. And they were like, this is terrible. Plus, The owners of this margarita brand are white. And I'm like, how would I know?

Rashad Woods:
It's. Yeah. You remember the character. You remember the character Speedy Gonzalez, Right? The character Speedy. So, like, they haven't put that character back out because. But then I've heard, and I've read that a lot of people do want that back out because they're like, no, man, that character was cool. I remember that as a kid. You know, even people who may have been, you know, of that same racial group were like, hey, man, like, the character was cool.

Rashad Woods:
Like, so I don't have the secret sauce to it all. I know that if you're. At some point, you do a disservice to people if you don't let them get offended, because at some point, either privately or publicly, they're not going to know how to deal with it. Right. So if you don't, I'm not saying you should let anybody disrespect you. I'm not saying you should let anybody cross any boundaries with you. But you do have to understand that not everybody sees the world as you see it. And if you are insulated from it, and if you are sheltered from bad language, somebody saying inappropriate words, everything's going to offend you all the time.

Rashad Woods:
And then you'll get caught up in more and trying to find things that offend you or other people than you were living your own life. Right. I live of the adage of I don't crash into anything I don't allow in my airspace. That's how I function and operate. So if I don't let people get to a certain point with me, then I don't worry about crash landing into it. I'm not naive to say that people have different thoughts of how I believe in. But if I don't allow you to say certain things around me from the very beginning, and I kind of set that early boundary, I'm cool. That's just me.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. There was a situation where I bought this necklace that I really liked. I thought it was so beautiful, and it looked Native American. And I heard that it was extremely offensive for me to wear this necklace because it was designed, it was based off of. I think warriors in specific Native American tribes earned the right to wear this style.

Rashad Woods:
How would you know that?

Jennifer Norman:
And I would never have known that. I just thought it was a beautiful necklace and it looked, you know, ethnic. And I'm ethnic.

Rashad Woods:
So, yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
But once I heard that, I was like, I'll never wear it again. I'm so. I didn't know it. Now I know, and I will do better, and I just won't wear it anymore, and I apologize. And I think that that can go far as to say, I didn't know. I'm sorry for sure, and I won't. And you learn from it. And then in other cases, if you are the one who gets offended, then I also think it's a check to see what the trigger is.

Jennifer Norman:
It's always like, okay, why is it that something that offends me, and if it really does and if it is bothersome, you can ask the person and to say hey and provide an education just to say hey. And then let it go. Like, do your best to let it go. Because once you start holding those grudges and being like, oh, and getting angry about it, you don't want that kind of toxic buildup in your system. You want to be able to laugh at yourself and laugh at other people and live in a place where it's like, I know they made a mistake, or I know that it was not, well, not ill intended, and we can move on for it. And that's the sign of, like, healing, I think.

Rashad Woods:
Right. And I'm not going to put you on the spot, but it's almost Abercrombie and Fitch, right? We all know the story of Abercrombie and some of the horrible things they put on their shirts. You didn't let Abercrombie ruin your life based on some of the horrible things. Like, seriously. Right. Like, it's one thing to say, yo, this company needs to be held accountable for these blatantly, obviously things, but are you going to spend your entire existence waking up standing in front of Abercrombie demanding that they change a T shirt? Right. Like. Right.

Rashad Woods:
Yeah, okay, you know what? Let's. And here's the other part about it, too. Like, when people talk about history, like, the first insurance coverage in the United States of America was on slaves, right? It was New York Life and Company. Right. So if you actually. Yeah, like. Right. So you can trace.

Rashad Woods:
Yes. Wells Fargo. So a lot of the. A lot of the large banks first had transactions with slaves. This is not any sort of woke. This is. You can look this up and find this information.

Rashad Woods:
It's facts. It's pure, unadulterated facts. Right. That's how they. Lloyds of London. That's how they insured their cargo on these ships. Right. And it was. That's how the beginning of a lot of insurance began.

Rashad Woods:
Now it's gotten to the point where if you say that, somebody could say, well, you're just saying that, and there's no basis in reality to it. It's important to know history. It's important not to be held hostage by it at the same time. Right.

Jennifer Norman:
Well said. Well said. And I. Yeah, I don't necessarily believe in, like, the erasure that some are trying to do by rewriting and, you know, like, kind of like casting a different light on things I had heard recently about slavery being called black immigration, and they're trying to, like, twist it that. That way. Interestingly enough, the spin. That's a really big spin.

Rashad Woods:
Right.

Jennifer Norman:
However. But I do appreciate you saying, like, let's not be held hostage, because I think that a lot of times we get stuck in that resentment and in the need for these kinds of retributions and repatriations and all of this stuff. And I think, to a certain degree, yeah, there are a lot of atrocities that we can do so much better as to helping to rectify systemic racism or problems, inequality, and not pretend that they didn't happen. But what can we do to move forward and not get stuck in that? Like, kind of like that entanglement that we can get into by just not working together and making things better.

Rashad Woods:
Exactly. And I think the important thing is, is that doing this podcast, like my podcast, is about the success of somebody. And that's a universal, unifying theme. When you go on my show, I don't care who you voted for and I don't care who you worship or don't worship. I never bring that up with people. That has no basis in the show. So the important part is, is that your journey is a unique portion of the you. And it's all about how, how did you become a better person? How did you maybe trip and fall along the way? Because at the end of the day when the lights are off and the door is closed, somebody's got cancer.

Rashad Woods:
Cancer doesn't discriminate because of who you voted for, what God you do or do not worship. You're trying to make your way in the world. And sometimes I think like I went to college and I, I'm appreciative of my college degree, but I think sometimes college does a disservice to you because it isolates you from the rest of the world. You're on a campus inside of a major city and everything else is going on outside of you. Like 9/11 happened when I was a freshman in college, but 9/11, like the classes closed for like one day and then the class kept going. Meanwhile, everything else is taking place outside of here, but you're insulated to it because you're a 20 year old kid on a 19 year old kid on a college campus. So then you look back and say, how much was I actually experiencing real world scenario and real world situations? And that's when you have to sometimes just say, listen man, I can't change what people did. The frustration people have, I think is that there is very valid things that they say, these are why they are.

Rashad Woods:
But you wouldn't know it unless you actually are going to open your mind and read a history book. Right? So like the British Empire, for instance, largest empire in history. Right. The Queen had the Noor diamond in her crown. Right. Because that was from India. Right. Some of these countries are still impoverished and partially because of the idea that they took a lot of resources from these countries over centuries and they didn't necessarily reap the benefits of the resources that came from those countries.

Rashad Woods:
And then you're looking at them like, hey, why are they still poor and downtrodden? Well, if you cracked open a book, you might know why. Like Haiti for instance, is poor and impoverished because after they got their Freedom from France 20 years later, France threatened to blow the island up unless Haiti actually reparated them back for their lost property, AKA slaves. So they had to pay three quarters of their budget back for the next hundred some odd years. And then they stayed poor. And then the United States of America raided Haiti. They raided their Federal reserve in the 20s to send it to New York and Company, aka Citibank to build up that bank in New York. So there's a lot of history behind why places are the way that they are. And if you know that you can ultimately open your mind to be a better person.

Jennifer Norman:
It does sound like you've gotten curious about a lot of these things and have educated yourself. Getting back to your identity of yourself before and then now and then, how you perhaps saw success before and has that changed over time in terms of like, what is your. Yeah, what is your definition of success?

Rashad Woods:
So you get that college degree, right? And then reality smack stabs you in the face and you sit back and say, and you realize you're really not that special. It's like that kid that's like a really fast or runner or can catch a lot of footballs or dunk and then he goes to the all American McDonald's.

Rashad Woods:
You're like, yo, all these kids can, can jump, you know, 4ft in the air, 48 inch vertical. So you realize that you are a very, very small. You're unique to the people who love you, but overall, you're just another person with a piece of paper in their hands. So when I started the podcast and I started talking to these people that forged your own path, did their own thing, fell, many people lost it all built themselves back up. Those are things you can't really teach in a classroom, right? Either you have the juice or you don't have the juice, right? And so sitting on a couch complaining, watching Netflix, like, damn, I wish somebody would give me a shot is really not the best use of your time if you really want to get a shot. It's not. It's like getting in shape. Man, I really wish I had that six pack like LL Cool J. But let me go back to the fridge real quick and grab something, right? You know what I mean? Like, no, it sucks. It's supposed to suck. It hurts.

Rashad Woods:
I saw a picture where they showed an iceberg and people only see the top of the iceberg. They don't see the bottom of it. Right. And so they only see what's visible.

Rashad Woods:
They don't see the negative hundred degrees down there, the darkness, the awful things that the animals. You know, the really, really big whales and sharks that are at the bottom of it, they see the beautiful whale going above the water. They don't see the predators underneath. So are you going to do stuff when people aren't looking, is the question.

Jennifer Norman:
Have there been any particular guests who have really surprised you as far as, like, oh, what their story has been? I'm curious about that.

Rashad Woods:
Yeah. I had a woman who actually baked cakes for royalty over in England. Yeah. She started talking about. She was a luxury baker. She started her. I said, who taught you? She learned. She taught herself.

Rashad Woods:
And so she started, basically. And then she got so good that she got a card. And then when she called the card, it was a cousin of the Royal family in England. And she's like, oh, my goodness. And then. But in the back your mind, I can't screw this up. But at the same time, she's like, I kind of made it a little bit, right? Because that's my in. Right.

Rashad Woods:
So when I started recording, I'm in my basement, right. Like, I'm just hoping that the first couple guests. I don't screw up. I want to get your name right, and I just want to get over the nervousness, right? Then all of a sudden, you know, I got people reaching out to me who are CEOs, I got people who are business owners. And I'm doing, when I get the email, something like, wtf? Are we serious? You're really reaching out to, like, me. Like, oh, I don't have to worry about beating you or you beating me. I just have to beat somebody untrained, right? So whatever butt kicking I'm getting or give dishing out it, I'm always. It's a perspective, right? So it's like, hey, you could be beating the crap out of me.

Rashad Woods:
That's okay because you're good. I just have to make sure that I don't get beat by somebody who's untrained. So this idea that I need to be the best in the gym, no, I'm getting better. Even though I'm losing, even though it's not going my way, because I'm prepared. I'm prepared for the untrained person. I'm losing because you know what I'm doing. You know the moves I'm anticipating if I'm going against another black belt in karate or in Taekwondo or I'm going against an experienced jiu jitsu person. I'm not that great.

Rashad Woods:
I understand what that. The danger that's in front of me because this person is highly skilled and trained. I need to put in perspective that I'm okay with somebody beating me who's good. I'm not okay if somebody who's untrained beats me. Me. Right. So that keeps me motivated in life and in ways. So when I do my interviews, I'm never going to be.

Rashad Woods:
I don't have a journalism degree, but if I can set the expectation that I can keep guests coming in because of how I present myself, of how the quality of the guests, how they feel welcome, mission accomplished. I don't need to compare myself to the great Joe Rogan. Right. That's just. I don't need to do that. Right. I'll get. They'll be like, I'll get a slaughtered 10 times a day on that.

Jennifer Norman:
Maybe if you've had a thousand or so podcast interviews like he has, then, you know, we'll get there.

Rashad Woods:
Right, right. But I'm realistic in my. In that space, in that space, I'm nothing, but in my space, I'm doing well.

Jennifer Norman:
Exactly. Have you ever had to get into a fight, like, defend yourself and use your training out in real life?

Rashad Woods:
No, thank God. No, I haven't. No.

Jennifer Norman:
I was wondering if there is a statistic about that, about people who do martial arts training and actually use it.

Rashad Woods:
You know, this guy has not. I mean, I've had some close calls. I tell you one thing, it's funny, and this is the funny part about training martial arts. Right. You'll start noticing when people have scars above their eyes or they have, like, the cauliflower ear, or if they have certain indentations on their faces. I'll literally walk up to a guy, you know, they could be at, like, a grocery store, and you'll be like, what are you training? And they would tell you.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, you can tell.

Rashad Woods:
Yeah. And I'd be like, so you know, where you live at, you start, there's a lot of talented people, and you start realizing that, you know what? I don't want to end up on YouTube. You know what I mean? Like, so. But I've had the fortunate distinction. I've come. I've had some close calls, but also, full disclosure, this is America. Everybody has a gun. So I'm trying to, I think twice before getting to public confrontations.

Jennifer Norman:
I am one of those people who do not own a gun.

Rashad Woods:
I can't say the same, yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
I'm just one of those people, I think I'm a lover, not a fighter. So really, I mean, I've taken a couple of fun lessons in taekwondo and whatnot, but I'm like, oh, I just want to be a peacemaker. You know, if somebody comes up to me and wants my purse, take the purse, right?

Rashad Woods:
And that's the truth. You know what I'm saying? And, like, I'm not.

Jennifer Norman:
I'm not going to shoot you over my purse.

Rashad Woods:
I'm not, you know, and I'm not a tough guy. Like, I am not. I am far from the toughest guy in the room. I think that martial arts has also taught me a lot of patience. It's discipline, too. And at the end of the day, I look at it, whatever you do, like when you take martial arts, my name will never be in the history books of the arts that I study. But somewhere, when I walk into a training hall, I can say, I know what that is. I've trained in that.

Rashad Woods:
I have a black belt in this style that somewhere, somebody who got taught, who got taught, who got taught, I got taught by them. And there's nobody that can take that away from me. And that in itself is special.

Jennifer Norman:
Sometimes I think, more than the physical aspect of the training and the discipline, the mental training and discipline is so fascinating with respect to martial arts. The idea of just learning and the caml.

Rashad Woods:
Absolutely.

Jennifer Norman:
A lot of those interesting lessons that come about are just really worthy of training unto itself.

Rashad Woods:
The best instructors will also make you a better person. They will also work on the you right? They'll not just say, hey, this is the hour, hour and a half of training. They're going to say, you're going to get vulnerable here. You're going to meet some great people, and you're going to apply this to avenues of life. Don't quit. It's okay to get knocked on your butt. It's okay to get choked out. It's okay to get.

Rashad Woods:
Take some bumps and bruises. The black eye will heal. You know what I'm saying? Like, all of those things matter to make you a better person, because it teaches you about perseverance and it teaches you about the ability to handle loss. Or, I've been humiliated, and that's fine. I've gotten my butt hand to me. I've had it. It's part of the game, baby.

Jennifer Norman:
It's part of the game, part of life.

Jennifer Norman:
Ultimately, I think it's a lesson of ego, too. It's like. Like how much your ego can cause you to psych out, like, and feel like oh, I've been from a. Just like an ego's perspective more than anything. It's like, if you can just put that aside, then a lot of times you can win in many other respects or play it against the other opponents.

Rashad Woods:
I tell people this all the time. I was taking taekwondo in college. I was winning tournaments in taekwondo, and this is not just for this show. I really was winning tournaments in taekwondo in college, right? So I was going across the state. I won about two or three. And so when my senior year hit, even though I had been doing taekwondo, Noah's really good at it. I said, I want to do something different.

Rashad Woods:
So I had a judo club at college, so I did a semester of judo before I graduated. Judo is entirely different than taekwondo. It's throws, it's ground. It's all. It's. It's a very. It's the precursor to jiu jitsu. It's grappling.

Rashad Woods:
I never wrestle, so I go in there, I'm like, okay, I want to find somebody kind of similar to my size. The guy comes in, I'm like, okay, I think I can deal with him. He turns around, he throws his brown belt on, and for the next five to 10 minutes, I took a thrashing, the lights of which I had never taken in my entire life. I mean, I got thrown on my head. I'm hitting the mat. And so in that exact moment, like, I'm like, here. I am pretty good at one thing in martial arts, but I suck at this. And I managed to come back, but it just shows you that I could be a really good podcast host, but I could be a terrible person to interview, right? Because they're not the same, because I'm on this side of the boat, right? I could be a good taekwondo practitioner, but a terrible judo practitioner.

Rashad Woods:
Just because I know martial arts doesn't mean I know that. The question is, am I going to work on my craft? The question is, am I just going to wave the white flag? Because, oh, man, it kind of made me a little uncomfortable, and I didn't really like that too much. There's always that guy or girl that has that sprained ankle. The first time they went to something that they really just want to kind of check out of, so to speak.

Jennifer Norman:
It's interesting because Josh Waitzkin was talking about similarly. He had been such a prodigy in chess and then also in martial arts, and he talks about how he's doing these exhibitions, and kids come and he's training on chess, and a father will come and he'll be like, my son is undefeated. And he's like, yeah, there's a reason why he's undefeated. He's not playing to his level. He's just playing because he wants to be undefeated.

Jennifer Norman:
But put him up against me and then, you know, the father's like, no, no, no, I don't want it. But to your point, he's got to get. He's got to be in front of that jerk to learn how to outwit the judge. Got to learn how to lose.

Rashad Woods:
Absolutely.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. And that will make him a better player. Rather than thinking, I'm just going every game. I mean, that leads to entitlement.

Rashad Woods:
Yeah, it does. It's like tasting your own food. Right. Like, how many times if you cook for yourself and you never actually receive. That's cool that you cook for yourself, but you never actually found out that your cooking sucked. Right. Because it was just good enough for you. And it sounds cliche. It really does.

Rashad Woods:
But at the end of the day, if you haven't had your heart broken, your feelings hurt, suffered loss or any. You haven't challenged yourself, right. There will be a moment where you won't have that person to lean on. When you do need, when you realize you've taken of defeat. Right. When you. When things didn't go your way.

Rashad Woods:
And are you going to sulk? Are you going to throw, you know, are you? And the question is, you're going to find out what you're really made of. Ultimately, you really will. Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. You got to go through those things. And that happens a lot with people trying to like, protect, like self, protect themselves and keep them comfortable, which means that they haven't stretched out of their comfort zone here. We're talking leadership, we're talking entrepreneurship, we're talking about life lessons or parents even.

Rashad Woods:
Yes.

Jennifer Norman:
A father. A lot of times you want to protect the kids from getting hurt or getting their feelings hurt or the sadness and all those things, but you can't. You gotta let them feel the feels. You gotta let them fall down so that they can learn how to get up from themselves and be independent and strong.

Rashad Woods:
You do. And then you have to sit back and say, what did you learn from that? Right. Some of the greatest CEOs did. I saw a cover one time when I was in a library with one of my daughters.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. And not say, oh, you're a loser. You fell like, you know.

Rashad Woods:
Exactly. But they were like, they were talking about the time they got fired. Right, Right. Like multiple successful people will Say, hey, man, I was terrible at this, or I was too ambitious. I didn't realize what I got myself into. And ultimately, how you react to adversity, people are watching people, even if you don't think that they are right. They're going to watch. Kids are watching, your wife is watching.

Jennifer Norman:
Maybe more than what you tell them. They're watching you for role models.

Rashad Woods:
Your coach is watching you. Are you still you, the team captain and next you know, your team is taking a serious loss. Are you still in the huddle? Are you you? Everybody's in the huddle. You're just sitting there. If you're trying to be scouted in high school and then they're watching your demeanor, hey, when things don't go this person's way, are they suddenly going to. Absolutely. Are they still all in with the team? Right. It matters. Right. And I can't say I've always handled that well. But I think that having that you learn and you're 42 years old. You know, there's a great quote, you know that Colonel Sanders didn't start KFC until he was in his 50s, right? In his 50s, right. Nobody forgets what he didn't make people remember. He made KFC.

Rashad Woods:
Right. And I can't say I've always handled that well. But I think that having that you learn and you're 42 years old. You know, there's a great quote, you know that Colonel Sanders didn't start KFC until he was in his 50s, right? In his 50s, right. Nobody forgets what he didn't make people remember. He made KFC.

Jennifer Norman:
Damn good chicken.

Rashad Woods:
Damn good chicken. Sure is. Sure is. 100%. So you have to just people, you have to move forward in order to be successful.

Jennifer Norman:
Absolutely. Were there any. You have to give us some examples of maybe some hard lessons that you might have learned.

Rashad Woods:
Oh, for sure. You know, preparedness on interviews. You know, oftentimes if I didn't do my due diligence, like I had some, some interview guests were very strict with their time. And one time I had a guest who I had to reschedule more than once. And then they were like, hey, I'm not interested in reschedule. Have a good day. And that was my wake up call that I always had to make sure that unless I couldn't make it, don't ever do that again. Because these people, their time is very valuable.

Rashad Woods:
They didn't get where they got by wasting their time. Now, that was early in my time when I was just getting off the ground, but that was early. Really quick lesson I learned to make sure that when people give you their time and they pick a date, you need to stick to it. That's it. Because at the end of the day, bad news travels really fast and they will find out really quick, you're a terrible host and you don't respect their time.

Jennifer Norman:
I'm going to ask you an interesting and loaded question.

Rashad Woods:
Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
What do you think it is to be a man?

Rashad Woods:
I think being secure in your insecurities, it's okay. Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
Being secure in your insecurities. Say more.

Rashad Woods:
Yeah, I think it's okay. It's perfectly fine. There's this thing that a guy shouldn't be quote unquote hate or he shouldn't want something that another guy has and you should be. There's nothing wrong with sitting back and saying, damn, I should actually try to get what that person got. There's so much information that's free out there that people are giving you antidotes. You don't have to buy books, you can just listen. YouTube is free. Free in the sense that, yeah, they're selling you ads, but it's free.

Rashad Woods:
So when you're secure in the fact that, hey, I'm going bald, I got to deal with it. I'm okay with going bald. Hey, my stomach's a little over my belt. I'm okay with my stomach being over my belt, but I'm going to go on that beach and I'm going to have a good time. People can get really insecure because they aren't perfect. So knowing that I'm five foot eight, not six foot, that I don't have washboard abs, but I got somewhat of a flat stomach, I'm okay with that because I look at it pretty simply. I'm still better in shape than a lot of guys my age. I'm not at the upper echelon, but I'm secure in my insecurities about that.

Rashad Woods:
Right. And so knowing that I can wake up every day and feel good about myself and not let it be a burden from the day before, I'm in. I'm secure in that insecurity about my own self. And I don't compare myself to what I'm not. But I'm conscious that if I want to get where I want to be, I need to follow the people that did it before me without excuses.

Jennifer Norman:
What are some of the lessons that you hope to pass down to your girls as they're growing up?

Rashad Woods:
It's okay to be upset, it's okay to cry, it's okay to be pissed. All those motions are very, very valid. But more importantly, make sure people don't get in your head and don't. I know it sounds cliche, but don't let people live rent free. Right? Because some people exist for the sole purpose of making you mad. Right?

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Rashad Woods:
They will drop grenades just to see, to watch the quote unquote roaches scatter Right. And as we can see in social media now, that's a very lucrative way to make money. I promise you that some of the people, that people vehemently disagree with what they say when the microphone cuts off and they put their camera down, they're like, these people don't get it. I'm having a blast making all this money. And they love their hate watching me. Right. They're hate watching me. I mean, are you going to give them the gratification of, I can't believe that SOB just said that.

Rashad Woods:
You're the worst person in the world. That's the point. They're winning. So go find something that makes you successful and happy. I've never had those people on my show. I don't want those people on my show. What purpose? What do I look like wasting time with somebody on my show that I'm arguing with while they're getting paid?

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, that's your integrity. It shows that it's like you've made those choices, that this is the kind of programming that I wish to show because it's representing me. This is. I'm the host, I'm the founder, and this is what I want to show. I'm not sensationalizing in that way.

Rashad Woods:
Jerry Springer and Howard Stern made great lucrative careers out of doing that. Do that. Fine. That's not who I am, and I don't knock them for it. But don't hate watch. If you truly actually want to find something that's happy, there's a lot of places that'll make you happy. They're not hard to find.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, yeah. You know, we need a happier, healthier people, just in general. I think that there's a lot of. There's a lot of us versus them. There's a lot of comparing. There's a lot of sadness and all of that. Yeah. But I think that The Human Beauty Movement, my Podcast, others, there's many, many others. There's positive content out there.

Rashad Woods:
Absolutely.

Jennifer Norman:
It doesn't mean that it's all sunshine and rainbows and butterflies. It's not that I. It's really just like a bit more inspiring so that you can live better in your life, you know, not necessarily somebody else's, but making you really feel good about yourself because you are working on yourself. You are striving to be aware, striving to have more curiosity, striving for more success in whatever that means to you. What I think, not Chad thinks, but, you know, your success is your success. And I, we. And I think we're cheering. Cheering you on to be as unique and geeky and weird and wonderful as you wish to be.

Jennifer Norman:
I mean, yeah. Amen to all of that.

Rashad Woods:
I appreciate that. You know, being a geek wasn't easy in the 90s, but now it's like the chic thing.

Jennifer Norman:
It's a very cool thing.

Rashad Woods:
It's a great world. It's great space. Say, listen, all y', all jumping on the bandwagon. You're late. I was in Geekville first. You just get.

Jennifer Norman:
All right, I am very late. I'm very late to the geek festival.

Rashad Woods:
It's all good.

Jennifer Norman:
I did go to LA Comic Con, oh, my gosh. Several weeks ago. And that was amazing.

Jennifer Norman:
Everybody in all their full glory, just having a great, great time, dressed up. I mean, it almost felt like the kickoff to Halloween.

Rashad Woods:
Well, here's the. Here's the funny part. Now, I don't want to over talk you. People will dress up as a mascot, and it's not a geek on a Saturday or Sunday football game. And it's like nobody calls that a geek. You dress up as a superhero, you're a geek. You do the math. Right.

Rashad Woods:
It's nuts.

Jennifer Norman:
I know, it's the fan in fanatics.

Rashad Woods:
Exactly. Exactly.

Jennifer Norman:
True. Okay, Rashad. So to end out all of my interviews, I asked three constant questions on the important things that bind us together. Our beauty, our humanity, and the truths that we live by. So my question to you is, what makes you beautiful?

Rashad Woods:
My ability. My kids make me beautiful. Nothing visually about me makes me beautiful. And my wife?

Rashad Woods:
Right. Nothing about me. That's fine. You know, you can be in the mirror, you can flex, you can look good in the gym. At the end of the day, you know, that's my rock. That makes me the beautiful person, and that's that. That's an extension of my beauty. So I take no credit visually of how I do or do not look about, You know, what makes me beautiful.

Jennifer Norman:
Nice. Family. Your offspring.

Rashad Woods:
Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
You created some more humans.

Rashad Woods:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. For sure.

Jennifer Norman:
And the segue is. Yeah. What do you think it means to be human?

Rashad Woods:
I think that understanding, empathy, but also at the same time, shared space. You know, the interview that I had with the woman that has The Earth Organization, we all breathe the same air. Her name's Barbara Wiseman. And her big thing is cohabitation. We all share this space together. And so you have, whether you like it or not, you have a responsibility to your fellow human being to have an environment where they're not harassed, they don't feel uncomfortable, and they have a safe space to. To exist, grocery shop, live, interact with their children. You do have a responsibility as that as a human.

Rashad Woods:
I don't think that's. I don't think that's a high bar to set as a human being that says, hey, this person was able to come and go safely to and from where they came from. That doesn't make you some sort of, you know, I don't want to say social justice warrior, but that's not a high bar to leap over.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, Yeah. I always think it's like the golden rule. Do unto others as you'd like to do unto yourself and respect the Mother. Respect Mother Earth.

Rashad Woods:
Pretty simple.

Jennifer Norman:
Right?

Rashad Woods:
Like. Right. Like, let them go. People should be able to come and go where they please to be without minimal disruption. You shouldn't add to be somebody's burden of their day.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, yeah. And then my last question for you is, what is one truth that you live by?

Rashad Woods:
You know, it's funny, I would say the one truth that I live by is that I've always tried to err on the side of if I don't know what to say to you and I don't know you, I won't try to offend you. Right. So. Right. I. Realistically, you're not. Right. Like, I know it sounds.

Rashad Woods:
And, you know, the other thing I try to live by is that people are different. People have their rights to have their opinions, and I don't push my thoughts on people. I'm never going to be on a hockey podcast because I can't talk about hockey in that type of depth. It's not my. It's not my respective love and passion. So I don't fake the funk on what I'm not what I'm. What I don't. Like, I can't.

Rashad Woods:
Like, you're gonna find out real quick. I'm full of it. Because you're gonna be like, dude, this dude doesn't know what he's about.

Jennifer Norman:
Talking.

Rashad Woods:
Talking about. So I stick to the spaces that I talk about. Right. You're never gonna see me on a cooking show. Right. Like, I'm not gonna. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate good food. I'm like, listen, man, you're not gonna find me on the Food Network trying to make anything special, because that's not gonna happen.

Rashad Woods:
I'm gonna stay in this little space of curiosity. But I'll talk to a chef. I'll let you talk about the. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate what you do. So I guess I've kind of like took a leap of faith in myself but at the same time I know what I'm good at but I'm always willing to push limits and skills well.

Jennifer Norman:
Beautiful Humans. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Rashad Woods. His podcast is called The TRON Podcast, The Randomness of Nothing. Please look him up. Look up the podcast and definitely if you aren't a subscriber of this podcast or his, hit subscribe, comment and make it a regular. Rashad thank you so much for being my guest today. It was a blast.

Rashad Woods:
I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you for listening to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Be sure to follow, rate and review us wherever you stream podcasts. The Human Beauty Movement is a community based platform that cultivates the beauty of humankind. Check out our workshops, find us on social media and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more at thehumanbeautymovement.com. Thank you so much for being a beautiful human.