Unlocking the Power of Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy with Dr. Jason Sonners

Jennifer Norman:
Imagine stepping into a pressurized chamber, hearing the hiss of air around you, and realizing that the very oxygen filling your lungs is about to do something extraordinary. Reduce inflammation, supercharge healing, and even awaken dormant cells in your body. For thousands of people living with chronic illness, brain injury, or autoimmune conditions, this moment marks the beginning of a profound transformation. Guiding those transformations is Dr. Jason Sonners, a trailblazer in hyperbaric oxygen therapy and regenerative medicine with nearly two decades of experience. A PhD in molecular biology, and as the founder of Core Therapies and HBOT USA. Dr. Sonners has helped countless patients find breakthroughs when conventional medicine had few answers.

Jennifer Norman:
He's also the author of Oxygen Under Pressure and the Art and Science of Hyperbaric Medicine and an international educator who's training practitioners worldwide to safely and effectively harness the power of HBOT. In today's conversation, Jason pulls back the curtain on the science and the stories of how oxygen under pressure can repair tissue, rebalance the immune system, and even optimize longevity. So whether you are facing your own health challenges or simply curious about the future of healing, this episode will change the way you think about what's possible.

Jennifer Norman:
Hi there, Jason. How are you doing today?

Dr. Jason Sonners:
I'm doing great, Jennifer. Thanks for having me. That was a beautiful introduction. I feel like you said it all. We're in a good place.

Jennifer Norman:
We are in a good place. And that only scratches the surface because you are almost like. I almost feel like, like the granddaddy of HBOT. It's really phenomenal to have you on the show. I really appreciate you taking the time to speak to the audience today about this because I have a feel, feeling that HBOT is going to be very new to a lot of people who are listening to this today. So if you wouldn't mind just helping to orient us in this. For somebody who is new to hyperbaric oxygen therapy, how does it actually work? What is it doing in the body?

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Yeah, sure. So here's what I would say a few things just to kind of create a backstory. People have been using some version of pressurized devices or hyperbarics in some way for literally over 300 years. So it has a very long history of a tool that people felt like may be improving a variety of different either health goals or health concerns that somebody might have. I've been doing this for about 20 years, and I would say even 20 years ago, it was kind of like, what's that hyperbolic thing that you're doing? Or I want to go in one of those bariatric chambers or. And so today, maybe in the last five to seven years, the awareness and the interest in hyperbaric has really grown tremendously. And like you said, I mean, even to the audience, it might be relatively new. It's still sort of gaining its, you know, recognition, let's say, from something that was really only used for scuba diving accidents, really is what it was initially designed for.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Then it started to find its way into more traditional medicine with regard to wound healing or severe burns or carbon monoxide poisoning, Things like this, certain infections. And now it's kind of finding its way into more of a. Either more chronic illness support or even just wellness and sort of this longevity, regenerative medicine space. And the reason for that is quite simple. Oxygen is something all of our bodies use every minute of every day. Even as it is, the amount of oxygen that we can carry Is defined really by the atmospheric pressure that we're exposed to. And so right now, most of your audience probably has familiarity with...

Dr. Jason Sonners:
You go to the doctor. They put a pulse oximeter on your finger, Something like. Something like one of these. It goes on your finger, and as long as your heart is healthy and your lungs are healthy, you're already gonna be 98, 99% saturated, meaning, under normal circumstances, you, really can't get any more oxygen Than what you and I are getting right now. And so because of that, we sort of developed a limited view of, like, what role oxygen might play in our body because we're already carrying the maximum amount. However, what hyperbaric is really doing is it's creating a temporary increase in atmospheric pressure. So when you go into the chamber, the chamber's pressurized. People experience that by just having that, like, you're on an airplane type of experience. You have to vocalize, your ears pop.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
But because you're in this pressurized environment and it's mimicking increased pressure Compared to wherever you happen to live, that pressure is really the driving force for getting more oxygen into your body. So even though right now we're bound by red blood cell carrying capacity, which is what a pulse oximeter is really meas measuring in a chamber, you're bypassing red blood cell carrying capacity. You're driving additional oxygen that would otherwise be impossible to hold on to into the liquid portions of your blood, like, into your plasma of your blood. And now, all of a sudden, you become a reservoir of, I won't say unlimited, but almost unlimited, increased levels of oxygen because of that temporary environment. And when we have more oxygen, the cells that use the oxygen, which are almost all of the cells in your body except for the red blood cells that carry it. All of a sudden they're capable of more work. So whether that is to heal from an injury or a surgery, or whether that's to help your immune system improve function and fight an infection, or whether that is to use the oxygen to reduce inflammation, as you were mentioning in the introduction, all of these things are possible because we are creating a brand new surplus of oxygen that the body can now just use as a fuel source to do all the work that our body would normally do anyway. But just more quickly and more robustly, let's just say.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow, thank you so much for that explanation. Really interesting and so kind thinking about it in layman's terms. You were mentioning, like, on an airplane, where there's pressure or even people are familiar with altitudes. And if you're high up in the air, then you feel, like, lightheaded and. And whatnot. Or if you're down at sea level, it's a different sort of atmospheric pressure. And so that helps people to kind of orient themselves to the idea and the concept of a lot of oxygen, a little oxygen pressure. So I'm wondering, like, oh, is a plane a hyperbaric chamber in a certain way?

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Let's go there just a little bit. So many people have had the experience when they go up in elevation, maybe they're hiking or skiing or something, that it's harder to breathe and you get more tired or more winded more quickly.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
And that's not because less oxygen percentage. So the air you're breathing right now is 21% oxygen. And if you were at the top of Mount Everest, the air would be 21% oxygen. But the reason it's harder to breathe up there is because there's less pressure. So as you leave atmospheric or as you leave the surface of the planet, you lose pressure. And that loss of pressure is really what drives that decreased amount of oxygen absorption.

Jennifer Norman:
Interesting.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
And hyperbaric is the opposite. Hyperbaric is creating an increased atmospheric pressure. And so all of a sudden, we're driving exponentially higher levels of oxygen in as a result of that pressure gradient that we're creating.

Jennifer Norman:
Interesting.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
So, yes, an airplane is essentially like a hyperbaric chamber in that it's a pressurized cabin. The difference is, so if you were on that airplane, which they never do this, but if you're on the airplane on the ground, and they pressurize it on the ground, it would be identical to what a hyperbaric experience would be. But what's actually happening is you're flying at 40,000ft and you can't breathe at 40,000ft.

Jennifer Norman:
Right.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
And so they pressurize the cabin to create a lower altitude experience so that you actually can breathe while you're on the airplane. And so even though it's pressurizing, it's still considered hypobaric. So even in an airplane that's pressurized at altitude, it's less pressure even than what we would be getting at sea level. They usually pressurize to about 8,000ft.

Jennifer Norman:
Interesting.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Because we can live there. Not happily, but that's also why people don't feel well in an airplane. Or part of the jet lag experience is you're spending all these hours at altitude at equivalent like 8,000ft altitude. So we're, we're almost mildly hypoxic when we're in the airplane.

Jennifer Norman:
Interesting. Okay, so HBOT has been around for say 300 years, but only recently have there been even more research studies and more titration, I guess with protocols to say, hey, this can actually be utilized for different ailments, conditions, even improvements in performance, those sorts of things. Can you tell us some of the studies or some of the research that's been done and what this might be really good for?

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Yeah, so I mean, one of the things that people talk, especially if they're in the medical field, let's say, and unfamiliar with hyperbaric, something I still hear all the time as well, there's not enough research to support hyperbaric for X, Y and Z. And in some cases that might be true, in other cases that somebody just repeating a thought that they've had. But there has been a lot of research and at this point, every month there are new studies coming out with new ways of applying hyperbaric for a whole range of different conditions and things.

Jennifer Norman:
I think you said it's like 115 conditions that are approved by the FDA now or something.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Well, so there's only 15 that are like, okay, traditional, like in a hospital setting, let's say, that are FDA approved.

Jennifer Norman:
Okay.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Internationally though, there's probably about 100 or more that are what are considered off label.

Jennifer Norman:
Right, right, right.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Still appropriate usage of the tool. And really when you break down hyperbaric, what you could say is, well, not even hyperbaric. When you break down oxygen, even you could say that oxygen helps in our ability to fight infection. It helps in our ability to create energy, cellular energy. It's literally part of the fuel for making energy. It helps to reduce Inflammation and it stimulates repair and regeneration. And so when I'm teaching hyperbarics and we're talking about off label, because most of the people, if you're doing hyperbarics in a hospital setting, you're pretty much focused on those 15 indications and you're kind of getting everybody in very specific box.

Jennifer Norman:
Just roughly what are some of the 15.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
So carbon monoxide poisoning.

Jennifer Norman:
Okay.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
A non healing wound, certain infections like gangrene or okay, they call necrotizing fasciitis, which is like that flesh eating bacteria.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
So in a traditional medical model, hyperbaric is really what I consider to be life and limb. So there are certain conditions that literally you may die pretty quickly because of either this infection or let's say carbon monoxide poisoning.

Jennifer Norman:
Yes.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
You may lose a limb because it's going to have to be amputated because of infection or vision loss or hearing loss. So these are very severe, acute and often life and limb conditions in which we apply hyperbaric, often very successfully for those types of cases. But if you really extrapolate out and say, well, what are those 15 on label indications have to do with. They have to do with not getting enough oxygen supply, having some sort of infection that your body's having a hard time kicking, being overly inflamed or you're not healing well. Whereas somebody, two people, one person with let's say metabolic disease can get a cut and that cut may never heal and it becomes a non healing wound versus somebody else who's healthier gets that cut. And we all go through that sort of normal healing process. Yeah, but it's the loss of the oxygen gradient that makes the difference between those two people. And so when we're talking about hyperbaric and we're extrapolating out from traditional on label use to let's say this off label use, we have to make sure that we're still doing it with a reasonable understanding of why.

Jennifer Norman:
Yes.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
And so when we look at, let's say a lot of chronic illness, and I'm sure you would agree, and, and we don't even have to wait until we're diagnosed ill before we can see some of these changes like chronic inflammation, mitochondrial dysfunction, and our ability to make cellular energy, those three common denominators could be attributed autoimmune diseases, most mitochondrial issues, most neurodegenerative issues, even just the aging process in general. And so as we start to understand not what conditions or what diseases would hyperbaric treat, but if we zoom a little further out and we Just say, what role does oxygen play in the body? And would increased levels of oxygen help people with this inflammatory issue or this mitochondrial issue or this tissue breakdown where it's not repairing and healing properly? And then we could start to say, okay, is this based on these. We call them mechanisms of action. Based on these mechanisms of action of hyperbaric, is it appropriate to apply it for a person with either these issues, these symptoms, or these goals from, let's say, a longevity standpoint? And so we still want to be responsible in the thought process.

Jennifer Norman:
Yes.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
There are some people that would just say, well, hyperbaric, good for everybody. And to some extent, it's good for a lot of people.

Jennifer Norman:
Sure.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
But we get in trouble when we try to take something this powerful and just apply it universally to everybody without a proper thought process to make sure that it's appropriate, make sure that it's safe, and then more importantly, make sure that they're getting the right dose, because.

Jennifer Norman:
Exactly.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
I don't know how familiar the audience might be, but there are different types of chambers that go to different pressures with different percentages of oxygen. So that one word, hyperbaric, really describes a large continuum of options. And so it's not only just saying, is this tool appropriate? It's also saying, at what pressure, at what percentage of oxygen, what frequency, duration, what's the full dosage that somebody ought to be exposed in order to get those kinds of results?

Jennifer Norman:
Fascinating. Well, that's very helpful to know, because there's probably a difference in practitioners and the level of what they're interested in. Are they just trying to capitalize on that particular trend, or do they really want to diagnose, Or I'll use that term loosely, but do they really want to get into what are your goals, what are the issues that you're facing, and what would be the right protocol for you? And then develop a ritual or a specific program that is customized for you that makes the most sense for what you're striving to achieve. When we're talking about off label right now. And perhaps some of those will evolve and start becoming more on label. But right now, there is no issue from a legality standpoint or from a treatment perspective on people going to a hyperbaric therapy clinic, say, and then just saying, hey, I just want this for X, Y and Z. I'm interested in longevity, anti aging, general wellness, that sort of thing. It's completely fine.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
It's totally fine. It's just to your point. Exactly. It's making sure. Because there are places you could Go. And you could just walk in and say, hey, I want to go do this thing. And they'll just like open the door and stick in there.

Jennifer Norman:
Right.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
But we should try to do that with a little. Right. We want to try to do that with a little bit more purpose in mind. That's really like over the last five or six years, while we still run a couple of our own clinics, most of my time is in writing and teaching and really trying to get more of a standard of care around this. Because from a safety standpoint, I think that's important. From a. Even from an effectiveness standpoint, we want to be able to meet patient expectations properly. And I mean, in all of medicine, I would say there's no one size fits all.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
But in particular to hyperbaric, because there's such a wide range of options in terms of that kind of treatment that really learning the. Which pressures, which percentages, which frequencies and durations are really appropriate for whichever goals or indications we're trying to apply it for. So, you know, that's really been. A lot of our work has been trying to hone in on and get those standard of care models out there so that there's more so that you can call me one day and say, hey, I'm thinking about doing this. And I could say, well, there's four locations near you and I trust all of them because we now have better standards inside the industry. So hopefully in the next few years we'll get there.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, I know that they're within those that are familiar with HBOT. Then there are the differences in pressure and there's some sort of confusion or there might be some question about is mild better than higher pressure? Is higher pressure always better? Probably not, but I'd love for you to help shed light on, like, are there specific things that higher pressure might be best for versus like a lower pressure when you're going to HBOT?

Dr. Jason Sonners:
So inside the industry, I mean, I'll just be as transparent as I can be here.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you. I appreciate it.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
There's been a tendency, if the practitioner does higher pressure, there's been a tendency to say, you need high pressure, everybody needs high pressure. So there's been a tendency that if, if somebody practices high pressure hyperbarics, then everybody should get high pressure hyperbarics and low pressure hyperbarics doesn't work. And if you used more mild pressures, they would say things like, well, you don't need high pressure. Mild does everything that high pressure does. And this is perfectly appropr. Appropriate for everybody. And one of the reasons I recently went back to school to finish a program in biology and one of the reasons I did it was as part of the PhD, I'd be responsible for doing research. And as a, you know, as somebody who teaches hyperbaric medicine regularly, the question I get is that, I mean that's the most common question is, do I need this, Do I need that? Is this good, is this bad? Because everybody has an opinion or something that they're married to because it directly impacts their income potentially.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
And I don't want to have those conversations. And so we set out to do some research to actually do like a head to head mild pressure versus high pressure, the exact same markers over the exact same frequency and duration to see what kind of changes we can account for. And I think anybody in the industry would have said probably lower pressure will eventually do what high pressure does, it's just going to take longer. And there are some components that maybe high pressure is really required to get this type of an outcome. What we found was something similar, but some even more expansive. So what we found was in certain cases, like in a majority of inflammation markers, high pressure and low pressure had a lot of overlap. So it seemed like from an inflammation standpoint you probably could do either or. And yes, it might just take a little longer for the mild pressure to catch up.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
However, there were a few very specific markers that high pressure impacted, that low pressure just didn't. At the same time, there were some markers that low pressure affected, that high pressure didn't.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, interesting.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
And that's not something that I expected, nor I would say pretty much anybody else in the industry. And so as we're learning more, right? Like as we're learning more, we could say, listen, if you have systemic inflammation, you could probably do either and it should move the needle. But if we were doing some good detective work, maybe we could start measuring some of these markers in our blood where we could start to say, okay, well we started here, we started to see some changes, but. But this particular marker is actually much more impacted by mild pressure. That's what you should do. Or this one's really more impacted by higher pressure, therefore that's what you should do. So this study that I did, and we, I mean I did this study about two years ago, but we really just started publishing it the first paper maybe six months ago, and there's a few more to come. But we looked at inflammation markers, we looked at cognitive performance and memory.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
We also looked at epigenetics and biological age. And there were a number of differences between the lower and higher pressure. And I think that's going to be the direction, I think for the industry, the direction needs to now be really, what are your goals? And then what kind of testing can I do? And then really try to be way more specific than we've ever been in terms of directing those protocols based on those outcomes. But in general, what I would say is two concepts. One is a lot of people want to say more is better, Right. If some is good, more is better. If you're American, that's like the American more is more. What I would say is if there's ever a more is better conversation around hyperbaric, that's a frequency and duration thing.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
In other words, five or six sessions across your whole lifetime, no matter what pressure you're doing, is not going to do much for you.

Jennifer Norman:
Got it.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
So really, once you start to do hyperbaric, it does need to at least for a period of time, maybe four weeks, six weeks, eight weeks. It really needs to have a very consistent frequency. And then as long as you have that frequency, most pressures are going to move the needle for you.

Jennifer Norman:
And so what would that frequency look like?

Dr. Jason Sonners:
So anywhere from. Most studies in hyperbaric are done at five sessions a week.

Jennifer Norman:
Okay, five sessions a week for how long?

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Usually 60 to 90 minutes.

Jennifer Norman:
Okay.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
And that could again be somewhere between, let's just say roughly a four to eight week period, depending on what we're trying to accomplish. The study that I did, we did it three days a week. And one of the only reasons I did that was because studies haven't really looked at that. And it's hard for people to do five days a week. And so if we can move the needle at three days a week and that makes it easier or possible for somebody to do it. Whereas, whereas five days a week meant they just can't do it and I just won't treat them. That's somebody who's now not getting access to this therapy. And so we did see a tremendous improvement even at three days a week.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
So I'd say the average is between, let's say three to five a week. There are people who do six or seven a week, and there are people that could do one or two a week. It really. So it does vary, but the average would be, I would say, three to five sessions a week for somewhere around that four to eight week period. That's a pretty standard initial protocol.

Jennifer Norman:
Okay.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
And then the follow up and then.

Jennifer Norman:
Go off and then perhaps.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Right, so the follow up would depend. Right. Like. Like if it was an injury, let's say somebody had a head injury, something more acute.

Jennifer Norman:
Okay.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
And that head injury healed. When you're done, you're done.

Jennifer Norman:
Right, right. Like a concussion.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Right, exactly. Versus something, let's say, like.

Jennifer Norman:
But if it's like a traumatic brain injury, that would be different.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Well, that could take long. Right. That could take a lot longer for sure. And. Or. But it still might have a beginning and an end. Whereas, let's say dementia. It helps people with dementia, but it's not a cure.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
And so if we do our initial four to six weeks or eight weeks and we see some really good improvements, then there's going to have to be some type of maintenance because the disease isn't necessarily going away. Now we're trying to support them over a longer period of time. So I would say autoimmune disease, neurodegenerative disease. This is something that's likely going to maintenance injury, post surgical and infection, infections. Right. Once you're finished with the infection, it's essentially you're. You could be finished with the therapy. So.

Jennifer Norman:
Got it.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
There's a variation there as far as that goes. Now, a lot of people choose to keep going, even if they don't need to keep going.

Jennifer Norman:
Sure.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Just because they, like, they enjoy it. The extra energy, the better sleep, the clarity of mind, or that kind of thing. But certainly that's a choice that people would have once they get.

Jennifer Norman:
What an interesting study to do on menopause.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's been a conversation over the last, like six to 12 months. Because we do know that there are some hormonal benefits of hyperbaric.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Not because it's a hormone treatment itself, but because, again, it's upregulating systems that are starting to slow down.

Jennifer Norman:
Exactly.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
And so if we can start to maintain. Right, exactly. You're not like pushing them hard. You're just. You're nerd. It's almost like a. I honestly look at this like a vitamin. Like oxygen is sort of a supplement that you would likely use throughout varying phases in your life, depending on stress levels, hormone levels, diet, exercise, injuries, all of these kinds of things.

Jennifer Norman:
Interesting. So I'm curious, for somebody who hasn't done HBOT, I know that you mentioned earlier that there are differences in the actual devices itself, in the units and whether or not they can go to certain pressures or not. I think somebody might want to be interested in. Know that and research that themselves, if they're going to a specific location. And then also is there, like, what is the Feeling once you're inside. Is there any discomfort? Difference between a lower pressure and a higher pressure once somebody is inside.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
So as far as that goes, not really.

Jennifer Norman:
Okay.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Kind of like an airplane. You're sort of aware when it's going up. You're definitely aware as it's coming down. While you're flying. You don't realize that you're in a pressurized environment.

Jennifer Norman:
Okay.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
So hyperbaric is almost the same. You'll be aware that it's pressurizing. You'll be aware when it's depressurizing. But in the chamber at pressure, it really surprises people that, like, they don't even. You wouldn't think anything is happening. Right. You're laying on a mattress with a pillow. It's usually very comfortable.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
It's relaxing. Most people take a nap. You could really just sort of meditate, breathe, Whatever you like to do to sort of pass that time and just. It's a great disconnecting time. Not disconnecting from technology is what I mean.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Like maybe connecting with yourself. Right. Like meditate. Right. Some visual meditations and. And some breath work. You know, it's a really great way because it's kind of like, I'm in this thing and nobody can see me.

Jennifer Norman:
Is the chamber dark, or is it lit?

Dr. Jason Sonners:
It could be either or they all have windows and such. So whatever the outside environment could look.

Jennifer Norman:
So you're not claustrophobic? Potentially, yeah.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
But you would. You'd be surprised. A lot of people ask us to sort of, like, we have, like, little window coverings. They want, like, their own little.

Jennifer Norman:
They want to be in a cocoon.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Sort of be in their own space. We still check on them periodically, but what a great way to a lot of people, really. Well, that's it. It's like, work can't get you. Your family can't. You're just. You're in your thing. And there's a lot of.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
I mean, as you would imagine, there's a lot of really great benefit to just sort of tapping back into that and being comfortable in that space and really just being.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
And so that's really not a hyperbaric specific benefit, but it's something a lot of people comment after the fact, realizing, like, wow, I really like my time in there for those reasons.

Jennifer Norman:
Now, what would be the difference... I know that in the past, oxygen bars were very trendy, and people have even done ozone treatments. What would you say the meaningful differences are between something like getting a cannula and doing oxygen therapy or ozone therapy versus hyperbaric?

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Yeah. So first of all, I like all versions of oxygen therapies.

Jennifer Norman:
Okay.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
I'm always looking for sort of the least invasive, most effective tool for anything that we're doing, doing in my clinics. We do IVs, we do chiropractic, massage, acupuncture. We have all kinds of different tools, but we're always looking for the least invasive thing we can do that has the highest impact. And oxygen in general is. So it's something that your body has used ever since the first moment of conception inside your body. It's not foreign. Your body knows exactly what to do. It's, it's very safe when it's applied properly.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
And so, so I love all things oxygen related in the first place. What I would say about the canula, like, let's say the oxygen bar, remember what I said earlier, which was oxygen absorption is driven by atmospheric pressure. And so If I'm about 98% saturated right now and I use the cannula, I could probably go from, let's say, 98 to 100, maybe 2%, but that would really be the limit you're not going to get.

Jennifer Norman:
You can also do that from breathing a lot heavier.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
You could also just do some good breath work.

Jennifer Norman:
Exactly, yeah. Do breath work and you get there too.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Ozone is very different. We do ozone in our office as well. But. But again, different tools for different purposes. So ozone, I would say we already said that hyperbaric helps with infection. If somebody had a really tough infection, I might err on the ozone side first because it's so effective at really helping to kill infection. But ozone also might help a little bit with, let's say, regeneration, like tissue repair and tissue regeneration. But hyperbaric is like exponentially more effective for that.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
And so it wouldn't be an either or. It would really be a what are we trying to accomplish? If we're really trying to work on a, a TBI or a concussion, ozone's really not going to do much for you. Hyperbaric would have to be the tool if we were dealing with a chronic infection. I might lean into ozone first for a period of time and then do hyperbaric after that to get the healing response and the inflammation lower. But I think because they're all oxygen related, people categorize them like, well, I could do this or I could do this. This one's easier or this one's less expensive, this one's more convenient. But I would say that they're so different in what they do inside of our body that it should Be less about that and more about making sure that we're applying the right tool for the right goal, for the right thing.

Jennifer Norman:
Got it. Got it.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
I want to make, just if you don't mind, another interesting thing about hyperbaric is we use it for tissue repair and regeneration. I say that over and over again, but that doesn't have to be like a post surgical situation. It could just be the wear and tear of decades on planet Earth.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
And so, like, if you find yourself and you notice that my stress levels are higher than I wish that they were, at least higher than maybe we were originally designed, or there's some. A series of old injuries that just never healed properly that have now changed your quality of life because your choice of activity has shifted away from things that you love because those injuries are preventing you from having that. Or, or even just the aging process on things like our skin or our muscles and ligaments. So under, like inside the biochemistry of hyperbaric, it stimulates collagen synthesis, it stimulates bone growth, it stimulates the repair of tendons and muscles. And so when we go into the longevity conversation, there's a lot of just general, like, health and beauty built into that. Like, one of the things that most women report very quickly from the chamber is a shift in their hair, their skin, and their nails. So they might be coming in for a post surgical shoulder issue, but they look great. You're like, oh, my God, I'm cutting my nails like twice a week all of a sudden.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Or like not just a shift, like almost a shift in even hair quality. So, like the thickness and the shine because of the growth factors that are released in hyperbaric, a lot of those systems just, just, they slow down as we age for a variety of reasons. And oxygen upregulating, all of your cells, functions and ability to do their job, like hair, Hair follicles can do their job better. You know, skin cells can replenish themselves faster. And so we start to really see some incredible inside changes, like I was saying, cognitive performance and. But even like exterior in terms of how we. So it's how we feel and how we look because of the role that oxygen plays in all of these different tissues.

Jennifer Norman:
I think that a lot of people in the past may have heard about hyperbaric and thought, oh, well, does it really work? And they just were very skeptical of it and thought, oh, this is something, and maybe it's not worth the expense. But there's actually, like you were saying, real science behind this. Dr. Shai Efrati from The Segal Center for Hyperbaric Medicine in Israel. He's pretty renowned. And he actually demonstrated that HBOT can reverse telomere shortening, enhanced neuroplasticity, and post stroke and TBI traumatic brain injury patients, and even benefit long Covid survivors. So this is something that is highly, highly credible now. And just like people are interested in more longevity, looking younger, longer, just overall better wellness.

Jennifer Norman:
I mean, HBOT is one of those things that I think the audience should really take a closer look at. There are definitely more clinics opening up. And Dr. Jason definitely has really a wonderful host of clinics that have been opened up around the country and also does teach us he mentioned on hyperbaric. And so there's some exciting research coming out. There's a whole lot of interest coming in there. And so it's something that I think a lot of, like with plant medicine and things like that, where people may have before been either shy of it. Or skeptical of its benefits, now people are really opening up and saying, hey, why not? Why not try this?

Jennifer Norman:
Look, there is real meaning behind the core principles of how oxygen is benefiting the body and how it can be absorbed, how it can be used. And now we are developing subsets and protocols and pressures and things that are much more titrated for various conditions, depending on what you want. I wanted to see, is there anything else that you found compelling in your studies and in your research that you'd want to share with our audience today, Jason?

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Well, I would want to say that one of the most important things that we're finding is inside that epigenetic conversation, which is like four podcasts unto itself.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, yeah, but can you explain to people about the telomere and then the epigenetics and how it's really helping to turn off, like, certain functions and turn on certain functions?

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Your genes, like your DNA, is essentially the instruction manual for how cells are supposed to function. Your epigenetics are the signals that your body uses to decide what the response needs to be like. Which page should I turn to for the right instructions? And so our lifestyle really is what determines a lot of the epigenetic signaling that will become the expression of our health, health, let's say, today. And first of all, inside that study, we saw a lot of biological changes at the epigenetic level, shutting off certain genes that are related to cancer, neurodegenerative inflammatory diseases, turning on certain genes that are related to healing, improved immune system function, and tissue repair and regeneration. So we're seeing those trends quite a bit. What I would love to say is there was a period of time like, let's say my grandparents, like, they didn't go to the gym and they didn't like necessarily follow a certain diet. Like they were living. Right.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
The world was very different then. There was less toxicity issues. There was, it was probably easier to get healthier food. Right. And then many of their jobs maybe were active. But I think what we've seen is, we've seen over the last few decades. Well, clearly I need to, if I want to live long and be healthy as I'm living long. Like, nobody would argue that proper nourishment and moving your body are critical.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Critical. Right. In that. The next version of that conversation, I would say has been in mental health and our ability to really work on our emotional stability, our emotional iq. Especially now with people so connected to devices, they become disconnected to one another. And so I would say that if I wanted to break down health into its most fundamental pieces, I'll say diet, but I mean, nourishment, movement, mental health, visualization, breathing exercises, meditation, stress management. Right. That's the third one that's really gotten a lot of awareness in the last, let's say, decade or so.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
And I would say the next two are oxygen and light. Getting the right amount of oxygen and then the right amount and types of light are the next two, I think evolutions in long term, like for health, for beauty, for quality of life, for longevity. And it doesn't mean you have to go into a chamber. You said it earlier, you could just do some breath work and you can do some meditation. But there are times where you might need more oxygen than that, in which case hyperbaric fits that bill. And then on the light side, I'm sure you know, like a lot of blue light from all of these devices avoiding the sun as if it were so very dangerous. We have to redefine. We've redefined nourishment, we've redefined exercise, we've redefined mental health.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
We really need to redefine the role that oxygen plays in our body and the role that light plays in our body. And those five things will become, I believe in the next five or six years, like that's the foundation or the fundamental components of long term health and beauty. And there's a number of ways to get access to all of those, but that's really where I believe the next few movements are heading.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, that's so exciting. And it's helping to take the guesswork out of it. A lot of it for people about how much, how little, how much blue light, what time should I be going to sleep? Like a lot of people get more stressed about trying to be anti stressful and then they stress out about their whole wellness routine. Which is very, very interesting, isn't it? But yeah, I think it is really exciting as far as just the forefront of getting onto something that is so primitive but is being used in such a real innovative way. And I'm sure that the innovations will continue and the findings will certainly continue on all of the different elements that it can help and even cure when used in the right fashion.

Jennifer Norman:
Now I think that in general HBOT has really seen is pretty safe. But are there any risks or cautions that people should be aware of?

Dr. Jason Sonners:
I mean there are, which is why going to the place where they just like open the door and let you go in is not my ideal scenario. You know, just like anything else, too much of a good thing is still too much. So oxygen toxicity is a thing. So you have to be careful on like higher pressures, higher percentages of oxygen, longer durations. There are some potential issues with that. And again, so what that means to me is just being guided by people who sort of know the continuum of those exposures to make sure that you're.

Jennifer Norman:
So maybe don't get a portable home chamber unless you're really very well schooled on it?

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Right. Or at least if it comes with like we've helped people do home chambers very frequently, but only as long as it comes with the protocols and programming so that you are safe, it will be effective. I think that's an important component to it.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, good point.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
There's also, I mean it is an oxygen rich environment. So there are, there's a history of accidents that have happened inside the industry. Typically those are at higher pressures and usually not always, but in like very high oxygen rich environments, which we try to avoid from a safety standpoint anyway. So there certainly are, I would say it's inherently safe because we're talking about pressure which your body's exposed to changes in pressure all the time. We're talking oxygen which your body uses every second of every day. And so the initial ingredients are incredibly safe. Safe. And then it's just making sure that you're utilizing the tool in a safe way to avoid.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
It's not difficult to avoid accidents. Every accident that's ever happened in Hyperbaric had a very specific reason that it happened. It wasn't random and it was also avoidable. And so when you know the rules and you Stay within them, and you apply all of these principles properly. It's incredibly safe therapy and incredibly effective while being, again, nothing foreign. Right. Your body's. Your body's very open and willing to accept oxygen because.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Because of how quickly every cell in our body really utilizes it. So, yeah, my only word of caution would be making sure you're going to places that you feel are trustworthy, have gotten the training, and will make sure that they apply it in the right way, both effectiveness and from a safety standpoint.

Jennifer Norman:
And so to that end, if somebody were vetting specific places to go, are there, like, specific questions that you'd recommend asking or some things to know?

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Every clinic there, the technicians should be trained and certified in. In hyperbarics, that would be like a starting point. Their equ should be approved equipment. So unfortunately, because of how quickly hyperbaric has grown from an industry standpoint, it's growing faster than sometimes the regulation can keep up. And so now there are a number of different products on the market that are not necessarily safety tested. So, like, I. What I wouldn't do is, like, go on ebay and buy a medical device or go on a Craigslist. But, like, you really want to.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
It's incredibly powerful. It's an investment of time, it's an investment of money. And if you're going to take those steps, having somebody that you can trust guide you through that is really important. We've trained over 600 people in hyperbarics over the last handful of years inside of about 250 different clinics all over the world. Some of Those locations, on HBOTUSA.com, we have a locations page. So some of the company or some of the clinics that remain very closely in touch with us in a way where we're kind of working through best practices, best protocols. We have a list of about 50 or 60 clinics, mostly in the U.S. but some outside the U.S. as well.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
And those are places that I can tell you I know that they're doing good things because we've trained them and they continue to be a part of this movement that we're trying to create. But even just asking things like, are you certified by whom? Is your equipment approved? Like, just some of the basics to make sure that, like, they're clearly on top of the pieces from a business standpoint, that they ought to be for providing this type of therapy.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, yeah. And then, of course, speaking about the economics of it, I think a lot of people would be like, well, it sounds great, but how much is it going to cost? Is My insurance going to cover it? Probably not. And would it be worth the, what they would call the wallet biopsy that, that it might take in order to be able to actually get the benefits to the goal that I am looking for? Can you speak to that a little bit?

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Yeah. I mean, it's not whether you buy somebody buys a chamber for home or even goes to a clinic, there's really no very inexpensive version of it. So like I said, it is an investment of money. It is an investment of time. Just like let's say exercise and diet or other things that people are doing. Doing this shouldn't be looked at as like buying healthier food is often unfortunately more expensive than buying less healthy food. But you're choosing that as an investment because one may detract from your health over time while the other may build your health over time. And we have to be able to make those kinds of choices.

Jennifer Norman:
And so organic or pesticide, you choose.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Exactly right. And so like we're both. Carrot is a carrot kind of, but not really when you understand at that level. And so similarly, this would often be built into sort of a lifestyle plan. You're not going six days a week for the rest of your life. You're going to do a program and then you're going to take a break for a little while and then maybe you'll do a program and then you'll take a break for a while. But one of the things I say to patients all the time, I'm not here to spend your time and I'm not here to spend your money. I'm here to just.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
You're asking questions, I'm here to answer them as best as I can, give you as many options as I can, and then support whatever decision that you happen to make. And so if we came to a point where it's like, listen, it's going to cost $3,000 for this treatment, treatment. And like that doesn't match what you were hoping or wanting or the thing you're in need of doesn't have an equal value exchange. That's okay, it's not your time yet. But when you understand fully what, which is why I have that YouTube channel in the first place, is when you understand, like, if I do believe that if everybody knew, let's say what I knew about hyperbaric, it would be literally on every corner in America. And that will also help get prices down too. Right. The more supply and demand integrated this becomes into our society, like the more people sort of the, the more reasonable it will become from a cost perspective, but 85 to 90% of cases, the outcome will far exceed the value that somebody paid.

Jennifer Norman:
I was curious if you thought that like, the technology piece of it, like the chamberizing of it, would actually. They would develop lower cost solutions that might be more accessible for the masses.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Over the next five or ten years. I think we're going to see a shift in there for sure, partially for demand and partially just because. Because of expansion. But I think what everybody, regardless of what tool hyperbaric or anything else that somebody's choosing, the price is what you pay, but the value is what you receive. And if you truly understood the value, I would tell you that some of these things, especially hyperbaric, in the right scenario, I mean, it's virtually. It's priceless from a. It could do things that nothing else can do. And if that's something that's really important for that person, like, it's the thing that you need to choose, choose to really move your health in that direction.

Jennifer Norman:
Wow. Wow. What's the most surprising condition you've seen HBOT help with all these years?

Dr. Jason Sonners:
It's. It's almost you start to expect, like...

Jennifer Norman:
Literally, you're not surprised anymore.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Almost, you know. But I say that, and then I say things like to have somebody who, let's say, had a stroke and they. They almost lose all of their independence and someone has to take them to the bathroom and somebody has to feed them and wash them, and then for them to gain their independence again, I mean, that's priceless.

Jennifer Norman:
That is true.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
True for a child on the spectrum who's never said a word in his life to say, I love you, mommy, for the first time after five or 10 or 15 sessions. Like, who could put a price tag on that, man? We see things like that literally every day. Like, even the technicians we started in the office, we just started jotting down, like little successes because you're doing it every day. You almost get numb to, like, how incredible what you're doing is every day. And so we just started jotting down so that we could share with each other, be like, oh, my God, remember when. And he came in and now look what's happening now. Or. And we're just sort of like celebrating with one another a little bit more because it is incredible.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
I mean, the changes, especially from a neurological standpoint, as a category, the neurological changes are probably the most significant that we've ever seen.

Jennifer Norman:
That is really, really exciting. Well, Jason, I am so happy that you're on the show to give the audience this overview, this orientation about HBOT and how special it is and how up and coming, strangely enough, up and coming it is, and you know, but we're, I really do think that we're on the cusp of like really great things.

Jennifer Norman:
How can people find out more about you? You have a kick ass YouTube channel. I would love to for people to know about your website, your, all of your socials. Where can people find you?

Dr. Jason Sonners:
I mean HBOT USA is our company so our website is HBOTUSA.com, our YouTube channel is just HBOTUSA. I think Instagram's probably at HBOTUSA. I'm not really sure I should know those things. At HBOTUSA.com that's where you can find, let's say the location. So if you were looking for, depending on where you live and you want to see if there's a clinic that we happen to have helped in their training and, and their development, that's a. You could search by zip code and state and hopefully find somebody nearby.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. Are you in New Jersey?

Dr. Jason Sonners:
So I live in Miami.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, you're in Miami. Okay.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
My clinic's in New Jersey. Pennsylvania. Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, okay. I'm in Los Angeles so the closest one to me in California I think is Alisa Viejo. So I would have to drive a little bit up there but it might be worth it. So yeah, everybody, beautiful humans, go check out HBOTUSA.com take a look and see what it's all about. Check out the YouTube. Make sure that you also look at the map to see what clinics do have these particular chambers because that's going to be important.

Jennifer Norman:
They'll all be certified, they'll all be top drawer, trained by Dr. Jason. Everybody there is going to know what they're doing. So if you're very interested in learning more, those are the places to go.

Jennifer Norman:
Jason, thank you so much for being my guest today. It was so much fun.

Dr. Jason Sonners:
Thank you Jennifer. I had a blast. Appreciate it.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you for listening to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Be sure to follow, rate and review us wherever you stream podcasts. The Human Beauty Movement is a community based platform that cultivates the beauty of humankind. Check out our workshops, find us on social media and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more at thehumanreadingmovement.com. Thank you so much for being a beautiful human.