Rethink DEI with Curious Spaces, with Tibisay Hernandez

Jennifer Norman:
Hello beautiful humans. Welcome to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast, your source for hope, healing, happiness and humanity. My name is Jennifer Norman. I'm the founder of The Human Beauty Movement and your host. This podcast is here to guide you on your journey of self love, empowerment, soul alignment and joy. With each episode, I invite beautiful humans from all corners of the globe to join me for open conversations about their life lessons and the important work that they are doing to help heal humankind. Take a moment now to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode. I'm so glad you're here, joining me for today's show.

Jennifer Norman:
Today we're tackling a timely and important issue: DEI, or Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. There's no question that DEI initiatives face significant challenges in today's landscape. We understand that diversity and inclusivity are essential, but how can we ensure that everyone truly feels a sense of belonging?

Jennifer Norman:
To explore this question, we're joined by the incredible Tibisay Hernandez. Tibi is an Afro Latina educator, advocate and thought leader on DEI. Born in the Bronx and now residing in Upstate New York, Tibi is working toward her PhD focusing her research on the experiences of first generation Latinx and Afro Latinx students. A mother of two, she has a deep commitment to nurturing empathy and understanding in the next generation and is dedicated to mental health advocacy and self care within diverse communities. With over 15 years of experience in education, Tibi has empowered countless individuals through professional development, training, bridging divides through meaningful conversations and inspiring real change. She specializes in implicit bias, anti racism, critical conversations, and intercultural communication, using her expertise to create impactful organizational change. Tibi is also the founder of A Curious Space, a transformative organization that provides DEI training to foster brave, compassionate leaders and supportive work environments.

Jennifer Norman:
In today's episode, Tibi will share actionable insights and tools to create a safe a sense of belonging for everyone. Listeners will gain valuable strategies for engaging in critical conversations, understanding social justice in social media, and implementing practices that foster a sense of belonging. So whether you're an organizational leader, educator, or community advocate, this episode will empower you with tools to build a culture of trust, empathy and inclusion. So now let's get ready for an inspiring and transformative conversation that will prepare you to champion DEI with greater clarity and purpose. Welcome to the show, Tibi.

Tibisay Hernandez:
Ah, thank you so much Jennifer. I'm super excited to be here today.

Jennifer Norman:
I just adore you and your work. Let me just say that up front, it's just really wonderful to find somebody and you know that we were talking beforehand about how aligned we are in how we feel about belonging and how we feel about inclusivity and the work to bring people together. So I want to ask you just first off, what do you think is going on with DEI these days? Why are we having so many problems out in the world with conflict, with controversy? And here's something where we think that it's such a great idea to promote diversity, equity and inclusion, but it's under fire. What do you think is going on?

Tibisay Hernandez:
It's the branding, right? It's the way that it's being spun and the way that it's being talked about. DEI really is about humanity, right? All of us are diverse in our own ways and how we include each other, how we talk about these topics of equity. Specifically thinking through us having a scarcity mindset, right? We feel that there might not be enough resources to go around. And you're not going to come and take my resources from me to give to somebody else or they are not deserving, right? This deserving conversation, that some communities might not be deserving of something, or we have to jump through hoops to get basic human rights. All of those things are really clouding our understanding of the foundation of what DEI truly is. And it's really about us connecting with each other through our shared experiences and making space for each other, right? So that way we can have more productive conversations. But most importantly for us to dream up a new version of the world that exists today. And I think that's really, really important, that we create some space for us to dream up what our ideal world would look like and work towards that.

Tibisay Hernandez:
So I think there's tons of just misinformation, sadly, about what DEI practitioners are really trying to do in this space and what we're trying to accomplish, what our goals are. And sadly, because of misinformation, and there might be people out there that the messaging that they're providing and the ways that they're doing DEI may not resonate, right? Every messenger is not meant for every community. So there might be some of that that's going on as well. But I definitely think it's the messaging and the ways in which folks are talking about DEI and not really understanding. So it's getting a bad rap right now for sure.

Jennifer Norman:
And that's not to say that, like, all DEI programs are misunderstood and that all of it is to be thrown out, not baby with bath water, et cetera, because there are some programs that have been very tailored for the audience. Like, if you think about in companies where they've done the work to really understand who their employees are, who their stakeholders are, and really listened, and done this active listening and done this empathy work to create and foster this greater sense of humanity. And that's where it shines the brightest. However, there are other places where perhaps there is either like a band aid approach or a one size fits all. Like, this is our DEI training, and it's almost like they're trying to check a box and say, okay, we've done our training and so, yeah, the shareholders will be happy because at least from a cultural perspective, it looks like we've done our jobs. But that's not really going to work very well because it really is done with a lack of understanding. Similarly, as you were just saying, I think a lot of that work is so deeply personal.

Jennifer Norman:
It's because we've all come from a place...I do believe that all of us have our own stories. A lot of us have different kinds of trauma in our backgrounds. I think almost everybody has. I don't know how you are a human being and get to adulthood without some form of injury and trauma in your background. And so sometimes we're looking at it so personally from the lens of our own injury. And it does put us in a scarcity mindset or maybe a fear of others based upon what our experience is.

Jennifer Norman:
And that is a very common situation where there is a lack of understanding because we feel hurt, we feel that we need to protect ourselves. And unless we are ready to receive a message on how to open up, on how to convey understanding to another, then it's going to perhaps be taken the wrong way and create more of a sense of divide. There are so many nuances and complexities that go along with this. But I would love to hear from your perspective. You've been doing this for so long. Where do you think that some of our traditional DEI programs have fallen short? And why do you think that they're met with resistance? And then let's talk about the solutions. I want to quickly jump to some answers on how we can make this better, but just so that we can kind of put that stake in the sand and say, okay, this might be something that if I'm noticing in my community or I'm noticing in my company that there is still some resistance, there's still resentment, there's still this pushback, what could be going on here?

Tibisay Hernandez:
I think that you hit the nail on the head when you talked about there are companies that are doing this work from a very intentional place and are allowing their employees, their constituents, clients, anyone that they touch to have a part in. In the creation of these programs. And that's where you see the most success, where you get a sense of the culture, where it is, where we are. And then when you have leaders that are open to admitting that some of the practices and policies that they've implemented may have caused harm to communities, and when they're open to saying that and then trying to mitigate it, that really changes the tone and tenor of these types of initiatives. So I think 100%, starting with doing that assessment, that data, I know that folks sometimes get really upset or maybe they don't understand how important data might be. So it sounds a little scary, right? It's like, oh, numbers, all of this. It's not just that kind of data. It's the stories.

Tibisay Hernandez:
It's collection of stories and experiences. And then really individualizing trainings and creating trainings that are meeting those needs and are addressing those types of gaps. And then understanding that this is a lifelong practice for your organization. This is not just something that you do in one training. And then you got...I mean, come on. I'm still talking to people who don't know how to attach things to their email and stuff. You know what I mean?

Jennifer Norman:
Like, they're still on mute on Zoom. Yeah.

Tibisay Hernandez:
100%. I did that the other day. Right. So we have to understand that there are a lot of just regular business things that we think that every person should know that sometimes folks, just because of being out of practice, because they never had to do it before, they don't know. So how do we create programs that embed DEI? Right. We want to embed DEI in all areas of the organization, making sure that we're always supporting our staff and our teams in the evolution, because this is something that is consistently changing as well. So I think that we have the tools there. It's just about how are we embedding DEI into practices that we already know work within organizations.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you so much for explaining that. Now, you are a proponent of this concept of a curious space. And when you said that and when I had heard about a curious space, I was like, ooh. Automatically it's like, oh, what's that? What is that about knowing that curiosity leads to growth? And so I love the name number one, and I would love for you to share with us what is the difference or what is the concept behind a curious space and how it can help in this area.

Tibisay Hernandez:
Absolutely. So I came to developing this curious space framework because I started doing DEI work. And we were big proponents in the space for safe spaces. Safe spaces was something, and it still is something that we're advocating for and...

Jennifer Norman:
For the audience who may not understand what a safe space means. Would you be able to elaborate just to be able to gel what the safe space is versus a curious space?

Tibisay Hernandez:
Absolutely. So safe spaces actually came out of LGBTQ activism and advocacy, and it was really about creating room for people to feel like they can be their authentic selves and that their voices are going to be heard from a place of compassion and care and uplifting the stories of the marginalized. So then it started in LGBTQ advocacy, and then it grew into something that underserved communities, undervalued communities really picked up on as, yes, we need to carve out opportunities for us to talk about how we feel about the things that are happening within our organizations, how we feel and how we're impacted by the things that are happening in society. Right. So it really became such an amazing place for folks to share their journeys in life with a sense that people weren't going to judge them with this security that what we're here to build is community. So there's ground rules to creating a safe space. And in DEI trainings, we really want to make people feel comfortable in sharing their stories because it's really scary and really difficult, and we're afraid of what the repercussions are going to be because these are our workplaces.

Tibisay Hernandez:
Right. So in the DEI space, the safe space, right, started to become a training tool for us to be able to say to folks, listen, we want you to be candid. We want you to be vulnerable. So that way we can explore ways to move forward. We can't fix what the issues are unless we know what they are, and we can't know what they are unless you're willing to tell us. Right. So there is this real need for folks to know that we're touching on very sensitive topics. And let's not shy away from admitting that these things are sensitive and that these things are going to impact you emotionally when we're talking about them, especially when you're attached in any way to the communities that we're discussing.

Tibisay Hernandez:
Right. So that was the premise and the auspice of a safe space. Here's what I started noticing when I would talk about a safe space. And again, not a good or bad thing, but just a reality thing. I would have people come up to me and say, I do not feel comfortable when we're creating safe spaces for underrepresented folks in our company or in our agency. I don't want to take up room in that conversation. So I don't even know how to ask questions, how to share my story because I might not be a part of a marginalized group or an underrepresented...

Jennifer Norman:
The allies are coming to you and saying that they don't know if they should be part of it because it's really for them, and I see, ok.

Tibisay Hernandez:
They were having these concerns of like how do I fit into a safe space? When what I'm understanding of what a safe space should be is that voices who aren't typically heard are being uplifted in this space. And I'm not a part of a community that isn't always not heard. Yeah, but I want to help. I want to be a part of some of these solutions and I'm just having a hard time figuring out my place within the conversation.

Jennifer Norman:
I'm wondering, I was going to say I'm curious, but I'll leave that for your curious space. I'm wondering if, for example, if they're, in light of a lot of the conversations around black and anti racism, like the work that is being done there and creating these kinds of safe spaces. When there is in very many DEI places there is taught there is an oppressor and then there is the oppressed. And so if a non black person comes in and wants to be an ally and learn in a safe space, do they automatically feel like they are the oppressor? And perhaps it doesn't become safe for them because a lot of the discussion which is very open and supposed to be in a safe space space like is targeted toward that person. And so it creates more of a divide potentially than what it was supposed to do is. Have you seen that occur?

Tibisay Hernandez:
Right. Yeah. That's some of what I saw initially when folks were learning that they were going to have to go into a diversity, equity and inclusion type training. What I have seen though is masterful facilitators who don't allow for that to be the case. Okay, but again, this is learned. This is learned through trial and error.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh yeah, a lot of error.

Tibisay Hernandez:
Building a lot of error. Building trust in a room full of strangers that they're strangers to you, but they're not strangers to each other. So there's dynamics and there's stories between the people in the room that you're walking into. Stepping on landmines in a training like this. Very easy to do. Very easy to do. But I wanted to think about from an academic Lens. Okay, if we know that this could be a possibility, what can we create so that a facilitator is armed and ready with a tool that kind of addresses that before they walk into the training? What can we create? So that way it's not about eliminating a safe space, not at all.

Tibisay Hernandez:
But how do we elevate a safe space so that these conversations feel welcoming to allies and to those that are victims of these systems? Let's be real, right? So I really wanted to, in my years of higher ed and in my academic brain, and I think because I was going through a PhD program as well, everything in academia, I feel like, is solved by frameworks. They're like, just make a framework out of it and get the steps. But it truly was me thinking through, how can we as an industry, as practitioners of DEI, how can we have something that we can name, an experience that we can name? So that ally experience of not feeling welcomed or not belonging? Right. How can we have something that addresses that? So a curious space came from those questions and me having a lot of conversations with DEI practitioners that I knew, me having a lot of conversations with folks that are allies that I knew and asking them about how they felt in trainings and in these different spaces. And I thought, okay, one of the big things that my training, the bedrock of my training, where it started, was actually in bystander prevention. And a lot of bystander prevention trainings are about how do we teach people to safely interject when bad things are happening, Right? So another thing that they talk a lot about in bystander prevention training, especially when we're thinking about areas of sexual harassment, sexual assault, because that's where I was really formally trained. Yeah, consent is something that's talked about as well. Talked a lot about.

Tibisay Hernandez:
So my brain started working and I start thinking about, first and foremost, I want people to consent to be in these spaces. I want you to come into this space as much as possible, because we all know that some of these trainings are mandatory and 'voluntold' trainings. But I want to ask folks for consent to engage with me in this process. So that was really important to me. So the start of a curious space really starts with consent. And then I'm thinking, okay, what's next? What do I add to that? After folks consent? I want folks to feel comfortable saying things that are difficult, asking really difficult questions. But I also want folks to feel comfortable responding and answering those questions. Because a couple of years ago, when there was the uprising of social unrest, I heard a lot of folks, especially folks from marginalized communities and underrepresented communities saying, I am tired of explaining the same thing to people over and over and over again.

Tibisay Hernandez:
And for me I thought, oh no, if we're tired to talk about it and explaining it, then we leave this area in this room open for others to explain it for us in ways that we might not like. So I also want folks to consent in this space to sharing their stories and being willing educators of folks that are asking questions. So all of this coalesced into really a couple of ground rules. So first of all, people consenting to come into the space. Second of all, people understanding that we want them to keep an open mind. But being open minded can be really tricky and difficult. So if folks need a reset, we want them to be able to take the time to reset. And that might mean taking a quick bathroom break, grabbing something to eat, taking care of their physiological needs, breathing exercises, whatever needs to happen to get you to be re centered.

Tibisay Hernandez:
Because being open minded is a lot easier said than done. We also want folks to explore intention but acknowledge impact. That intent and impact conversation is really important in a curious space because sometimes folks are going to say things that are hurtful. And what we want in a curious space is for us to be able to explain why what came out of their mouth is hurtful and give some context as to the history maybe that is impacting this kind of exchange or this kind of the way that people are perceiving the words that are coming out of someone's mouth. Right?

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Tibisay Hernandez:
So giving some room for explanation, room for historical context. So exploring intention, very important. But acknowledging the impact becomes really critical in a curious space. We want folks obviously to ask the questions that are not the PC questions, but the questions that are in your heart and mind that no one's answered for you before. And that can be scary. So we want folks to be conscious and brave within the space and we want folks to lastly expect discomfort. This is not going to be comfortable at all. And I often ask my audiences if they work out and I'll get a flutter of hands.

Tibisay Hernandez:
And then I ask them, how many of you lie about working out? And then I raise my hand, yeah, me. And I'll tell them order for me to lie about working out. I got to know some things about the gym. So when someone asks me, oh, how your workout's going? Oh yeah, I'm sore. Just it was leg day, arm day, you know, I'm just, I'm out here creeping away. But we got to give it time. Right. You got to know something about the gym in order to be a good liar about it.

Tibisay Hernandez:
And then I'll ask folks who actually go to the gym, I'll say, how do you actually feel when you work out? They're like, great, energized, ready for the day. Right. And I'll often tell my audiences, absolutely. Because when you go into the gym and you're consistent, you gain the capacity to grow your muscles to go back in there, get into it, even if it hurts a little bit, you know that there's going to be some gain as you are building your muscles and your capacity. So I tell folks that this is a communications and intellectual gym that they're consenting to come into with me. It's going to be uncomfortable. It's going to tear your muscles apart a little bit. But what it's going to give you is the capacity to have these conversations in more compassionate ways and in ways that produce better outcomes.

Jennifer Norman:
Beautiful. Beautiful. Okay, so I have a few questions. I think that some of the, maybe the critics of DEI, or even programs such as your beautiful program might say, why isn't it that we can't just, like, come to the office and work? And why do we have to bring all this messiness in? Why is it the responsibility of the company to deal with all of these personal issues? It's actually harming productivity and creating more mushiness when we bring this in, rather than us actually just doing what we're here to do. And that is just, like, be productive. How would you respond to that kind of thinking? And what would be the pros and cons of...for companies that are really considering just like, rolling everything back, because perhaps they've tried it and they feel like it's failed, and they're just, like, throwing up their hands and saying, I'm just gonna do away with the programs altogether and do away with my head of diversity, etc, because it's just not worth it. It's done more harm than good.

Tibisay Hernandez:
I would ask, can we do away with humanity? Because all of these organizations are in service of humanity. And what we are trying to address is that humanity is complex and nuanced. But in order for our organizations to be healthy, we have to take care of our people. And that's what we're striving to do with these programs. We just got out of a global pandemic, and people are coming out of it hurt. People are coming out of it with a lot of recognition that maybe just going to work and getting your work done isn't enough to live a sustainable and healthy life. And we have to address folks that are having those concerns. We have to.

Tibisay Hernandez:
Because ultimately, if you actually do want to be successful, this model is what creates success. Having a variety of perspectives gives you a variety of communities to go into with your products, with your services, with whatever it is that you're doing with the organization. Organizations only happened in service of humanity, regardless of how you cut it. That is why we work. We are working in service of human beings. So therefore it makes sense for us to take care of those human beings that are creating the products and creating the services that are making people really, really wealthy, producing outcomes for people. You know what I mean? I'm like, how can you not look at your workforce and feel a sense of responsibility and commitment to their well being when it is from their well being that your innovation comes from, it is from their well being that your best products come from, it is from their well being that we continue to move forward as human beings. Do you think that the breakthroughs of the world come from folks that are not able to think, not able to process because they're so hurt and traumatized? We do it.

Tibisay Hernandez:
We do it in spite of the pain that we feel. Human beings are able to push through. But it doesn't have to be that way. And why would we want to make it that way? If we see an issue and we see a problem, why wouldn't we want to create better spaces for ourselves and for others? And that's where energy and understanding that we are all so energetically bonded to each other and that it truly is that an injustice against one of us is an injustice against all of us. So making sure that when we are creating our organizations, that organizational health is only as good as the health of each employee. That's the answer to a lot of this. Right? And I think that sometimes folks want to think about DEI as the mushy stuff, not understanding that it does affect the other things that are technical. Again, if someone isn't in their right mind space, right.

Tibisay Hernandez:
And they're in a trauma space, or they're having a really hard time in the mental health space and they're your accountant, and now they're not doing what they have to do correctly, then that affects your accounting, that affects your processing, that affects your payroll. Human beings are the ones doing the things.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, yeah.

Tibisay Hernandez:
So we want them to be at their best when they're doing those things.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you so much for that. I think that there are also, on the flip side, companies that offer wonderful programs and do have these caring environments or at least try to establish caring environments and doing the best they can. And there's also always inevitably within any certain population going to be a percentage of individuals who are going to seriously have, like, have been traumatized and still have mental health struggles. And it may be long standing to the point earlier. I mean, these things don't evaporate overnight. It's very difficult to heal and it is a longer process. And then there's also going to be a certain subset of the population that is going to be what we consider high conflict personalities. And they're just going to want to like drama or histrionics or just issues and blame.

Jennifer Norman:
And that is one aspect of a high conflict individual is the concept that it's everybody else's fault. And so that person is typically right. Everything else is to blame. The, the boss is to blame, the organization is to blame, the program is to blame. And so nothing will go right. And it becomes quite a bit more difficult for programs to be successful when you've got people who, what we'll call will deem successful in the short term. Because a lot of people are like, okay, I want to see what the results are in a year. And there is a lack of patience when we look at metrics and we're evaluating whether or not it's worth our budget for the following fiscal year and say, you know what, we didn't get the results on this program that we expected to, so we're just going to cancel it.

Jennifer Norman:
We're just going to do away with it because it obviously didn't do any good. What would you say in terms of being able to be in this for the long haul? And what are some of the metrics that we should be looking at in order to determine whether or not something is truly moving the needle and should be continued or maybe walk away altogether or try something different.

Tibisay Hernandez:
I think that it's really, really important for folks to, like you said, be cognizant that these are not silver bullets. Right. To culture.

Jennifer Norman:
I always joke and say, yeah, it's going to solve racism, right?

Tibisay Hernandez:
Exactly.

Jennifer Norman:
Like no more racism.

Tibisay Hernandez:
Right. It's been embedded in our culture for as many years and as long as it has been. And this one training is going to make it, it all go away. I think that what DEI does is create resiliency and adaptability for an organization as things shift in society. So if you look at it from a sustainability perspective, DEI is really, really important because it allows for folks to understand how to move with the tides of humanity and still be productive and still still be able to do the work of the organization. In terms of what you were mentioning that there's always going to be a subset of folks. This is where accountability becomes really, really important. Right.

Tibisay Hernandez:
So thinking through how our performance plans are tied to our values, not just dei, but to our values, because we espouse as organizations values that we say that we uphold. But you know what we don't showcase a lot of the time is what those look like from a behavioral action standpoint. What does it actually look like in our organization to be respectful, what does it actually sound like? Right. We very idealistically list our values, but we don't commit them or transform them into what this actually looks like on the day to day. And then holding folks accountable for what that looks like on the day to day. It is not going to be kumbaya. And let's be real, a lot of innovation comes from conflict. Sometimes somebody will say something and yes, are they trying to be messy? Sure, they're trying to be messy.

Tibisay Hernandez:
But there's a nugget of truth that might be in that messiness that could help us to move along our timelines in a better way or think through processes in a different way. Right. So sometimes that conflict person that's bringing up the issue. Right. If you're looking at them as an adversary, yes, they're never going to be someone that you feel is a good part of your organization. But if you're looking at them as a critic that might be able to highlight some of these major issues that you're not going to find from just sifting through the numbers and the key performance indicators. You could see them as your best, best helper for change within your organization. Actually, I think that sometimes we get bogged down in KPIs that aren't serving the greater overall mission of diversity, equity and inclusion.

Tibisay Hernandez:
So I always tell folks, be very careful just looking at the demographics. They are important, they are important, but they're not the only indicator of change and health within your organization.

Jennifer Norman:
I think that that's where some got into fire because they were hired...it was known as the DEI hire. It's like, was the person truly qualified for the role? Well, we wanted to get these metrics to showcase that a certain number of managers were from a certain race or from a certain gender or the board looked a certain way, and it caused a little bit of dysfunction from that perspective in terms of, of qualifications.

Tibisay Hernandez:
And the data does not support that. DEI hires as people want to claim are unqualified for these roles. If anything, what you're seeing is that undervalued and underserved populations that make it into these spaces are overqualified. Okay.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. They've had to do a lot to get to where they are.

Tibisay Hernandez:
You had to do a lot of adversity, battled a lot of adversity, spend more years in positions that maybe other people don't have to spend as many years in before they get recognized. So these are fine tuned members of our professional workforce that we are getting when we get to these levels. And the scrutiny that folks go through to even be considered is vast. So the data actually doesn't support, support this notion. But again, it's a narrative.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. And certainly it is case by case because as we know, it does happen and it has happened.

Tibisay Hernandez:
Absolutely.

Jennifer Norman:
To try to get absolutely quote unquote quick fixes to a DEI KPI.

Tibisay Hernandez:
Right. And let's be real, sometimes people, you don't figure out that somebody's fit for the job until someone gets in the job. Sometimes the organization doesn't do a good job at articulating what it is that they actually need. They don't do a good enough needs assessment for whatever hires that they're looking for. Sometimes we have the last person that was in the role so deeply embedded in our brains that we're looking for a replica of that person. Sometimes the person that left the job was so bad that we're looking for the complete opposite of that person. There's so many different reasons in hiring why biases can prop up. But I do think that it's important for us to diversify our organizations, diversify the perspectives and the demographics of our organization.

Tibisay Hernandez:
It's just, it can't be that one approach. It has to be a multipronged approach to these issues and knowing where folks are, how not just their productivity, but how are they feeling when they're coming into spaces? How do they feel about the grievance processes? Like when they have an issue, do they feel like they can actively bring up issues in your organization? That's a huge metric that we don't talk enough about. How are we creating processes that ensure that there is some accountability, but some organizational accountability, but more than that, some outside perspectives looking at situations. So that way we can get a more nuanced understanding of what's happening between an employee and, let's say, their manager. Right. Looking at, I think that middle management piece is really critical. I don't think we do enough in the supervision, training, and that's a big place where I feel like diversity, equity and inclusion can help to mitigate a lot of issues, workplace issues that we see, because if we have a conflict avoidance supervisor, for example, then you know that issues that come up are not going to get addressed and they're going to fester and they're going to bubble up. Right.

Tibisay Hernandez:
So looking at that middle management piece of how are people dealing with the issues that employees are bringing up, how are they communicating those issues up and down the ladder, that middle piece is where I feel like we need to focus on because they're the sieve of the issues that we see in our organization. So we can't just keep promoting people into supervision positions because they know the technical aspects of the job. We want human beings that know how to treat human beings in these middle management positions. I think about it, not everybody wants to do that kind of work even sometimes, but they feel like the only way that they can move up is if they get into a management role. So thinking through in our organizations, what are ways or pathways that we can create for our technically skilled staff members who may not want to do the management thing in the organization, but still want to develop and grow with the organization and still want to contribute as an expert and as a technical leader in this space. So that to me is the big missing piece, is the sieve, as I call them, of middle management.

Jennifer Norman:
Very good. I'm so glad that you highlighted that. Another thing that I'd love to highlight is the idea of like radical responsibility, self care, self empowerment. Because I think that a lot of the work, of course, you know, we can ask the companies to do the work, but ultimately we as individuals must do our own individual soul searching, deep diving and work in terms of being able to kind of of step out and embrace a new world of inclusivity. Tell me what it means in terms of somebody kind of looking after themselves from a self care perspective and also a self empowerment perspective when it comes to belonging.

Tibisay Hernandez:
First of all, I want to say that benefits packages allow for self care and belonging to happen. Oof. Okay. Because if I'm going to do this work, then I need for it to be accessible for me to have a therapist. Right. I need it for me to be accessible to. If I need physical therapy because of a particular ailment that I have, that I have access to that physical therapy, the healthcare system becomes a huge piece of this.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, that's a whole other conversation.

Tibisay Hernandez:
Absolutely. But when we're thinking about how do I do the things to help myself that comes with support. People do need support in doing the work, especially when a lot of the things that they've experienced has not been self inflicted. And one of the most important things that I think people don't recognize is that when you're doing the work, it liberates you. It liberates you when you take that radical accountability. Because now you're not giving your autonomy to someone else who's having a bad day and doing things that they don't have to do. Right now you're able to say I'm in control of how I respond. And that means that I'm going to protect my energy.

Tibisay Hernandez:
I'm not going to deplete to be.

Jennifer Norman:
For those who are just listening to this stream and not watching, she has this wonderful shirt on that says protect ya energy.

Tibisay Hernandez:
Yes, yes. It becomes so important because when we are on our healing journey, it is easier for us to recognize those who are not on that journey. It's easier for us to create boundaries that are healthy for ourselves. And then when we're coming into spaces from a place of knowing who we are, from a place of feeding our souls, from a place of having those boundaries up, it is liberating because you feel very much like you can navigate these spaces that are difficult, but you can navigate it from a place of self worth and confidence. Like I can do this, I can get through this. I can find the resources that I need to make sure that if something needs to change that the right folks are involved in that process and know about the things that need to change. I tell people often don't self sacrifice to any organization. Don't sacrifice your mental health, don't sacrifice your well being.

Tibisay Hernandez:
And not every organization is meant for every person. But there is a place where you belong. Sometimes you have to create the space. We have beautiful entrepreneurs that are out there creating their own spaces because they want to curate how they live their lives and how they message their messages. Right? Absolutely. I think that that's important as an option and that's sometimes not something that we're told. I know for me being a first gen Dominican American woman, owning my own business is not something that I saw anybody do in my family. So I didn't see it as an option for myself.

Tibisay Hernandez:
But going out there and seeing different pathways for my well being and my autonomy has been the most liberating part of this process, I think for me. I often tell folks that are wanting to do DEI practitioner work, that the self work that you have to do in order to go up there and talk to people about these traumatic things is a lot. You have to dig into yourself. You have to think about where it is that you're coming from in terms of your messaging, how you want to deliver your message. That all is a reflection of where you are in terms of, like your healing journey from a lot of these issues. And that's so, so hard. It's a learned skill. I think that the best thing that you can do as a human being is tap into communities that are going to uplift you, tap into human beings that are going to allow you to process your feelings and go through that self discovery phase of the healing journey that are going to give you grace, but that are also going to give you a sense that there's a light, that there's potential for happiness.

Tibisay Hernandez:
And I think so many of us lose in these oppressive systems the thought that there's a potential for us to be cared for and loved and happy, or that there's the potential that there could be a society or system that gives us love and care and allows us to be our best and fullest self. And because I know what my ancestors went through in order for me to be here today, I am not allowed to give up hope. I can't because I am their wildest dreams, as they say, come true, manifested. So if I'm standing here today doing work that I love, trying to be a beacon of light for other people, how could I ever say that there doesn't exist a future where we are all caring about each other and dismantling some of the barriers of connection that we've created out of fear?

Jennifer Norman:
Right?

Tibisay Hernandez:
How can I not? How can I not be so hopeful when someone survived in order for me to exist and be here with you today? So that's what drives me every single day, is knowing that for all intents and purposes, you know, someone thought that I. Someone thought that it was impossible for me to be who I am. And here I am, an educated woman of color with two beautiful children and absolutely loving the opportunity to share hope and love with people.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I celebrate you so much. So hard, Tibi. Now I know that there are people listening whose stories in their past was not as rosy and glowing. They might not have been told, you can be whatever you want. You can do whatever you want.

Jennifer Norman:
They might not have had the kind of support they might have truly been, you know, victims of some atrocities in the past. And we want you to know that we see you and we feel you and we hear you and we also know that you are courageous. That you are powerful beyond, beyond belief. And that there is an opportunity for a mindset shift and a framework shift to take place, for you to step out of what might have been considered this. This sense of oppression or this feeling of hopelessness, this feeling that you're just overwhelmed or so anxious because all of these responsibilities, all of these issues are being thrown in front of your face and. And it's almost like whack a mole. You're just trying to do the best you can to get rid of whatever you can to just. Just kind of get through the day.

Jennifer Norman:
We know that some of you might be in that place, and it's not easy. And we feel. And you know, even just to take a moment for yourself might feel like a big luxury, but we are inviting you and giving you permission to take it because you deserve it. Because every moment that you can care for yourself and build yourself up to the place where you know that you can be responsible for forging a better life for yourself and for whoever might be coming after you and for those around you, you have the ability to protect and nurture and cultivate positive energy within you so that you will eventually have enough to be able to spread out to other people. But if you can recognize that place where you are at. Sometimes it takes a lot of self reflection to say, you know what? I'm really hurt right now. I really feel like perhaps you can see it reflected in some of your relationships or the way things are going at work. Because, you know, frankly, the world is a big mirror.

Jennifer Norman:
A lot of times what happens on the outside and what is going on within the vicinity of your world is kind of what's going on inside you. And so one of them has to change in order to help to catalyze a change and a spark in everything else. And so why not start with you? And if you can wake up and say, you know what? Today's gonna be actually an amazing day. Today is gonna be like, if I could craft my perfect day, this is what it's gonna be like. And I'm gonna feel that. I'm gonna resonate with that and I'm gonna empower myself and give myself permission to feel good today, no matter what happens. You know, something else might happen, but, you know, I might be able to just say, you know what? Everybody has good intentions. I really don't think that the world is out to get me.

Jennifer Norman:
I really don't think that I need to blame this person or that person, because frankly, you know what? I'm responsible for the way that I feel. And I'm going to just like, you know, take some, some radical responsibility for controlling the way that I'm going to react to somebody that might seem like they're cutting me off and, you know, in traffic or whatever. You know, I'll give that person a little bit of grace because they might be going through something, something too. I'm going to step into this role. And when I step into this day, and it's always every single day, I'll get a little bit more curious. I'll allow that curious space within myself to say, yeah, let's see what happens. What if. What if.

Jennifer Norman:
Let's see what happens. If I can be a little bit more open, a little bit more joyful, a little bit more positive, treat myself and talk to myself a little bit more kindly today. Let's see what happens. And maybe we'll just start to create these curious spaces not only within ourselves, but within all of our surroundings. And perhaps you can even volunteer if your company doesn't have a curious space yet, maybe you can invite to be in or you can, you know, establish one on your own to say, you know what? Here's a place where I'd like to get everybody together and learn about each other without judgment, without accusations, without an us versus them, without blaming or, you know, seeing like, you know, looking at everybody outside our space as the enemy. Maybe there's no enemy. Maybe the enemy is within us, huh? And so it's a curious space for us to really just, you know, understand a little bit more about ourselves and a little bit about the people that we're working with, a little bit more about our communities and get back to this place of beautiful humanity. Wouldn't that be nice?

Tibisay Hernandez:
Give yourself the grace that you want others to give you. Give yourself that grace. We are so hard on ourselves, and we don't listen to our bodies, we don't listen to our physiological needs, our emotional needs. We're not in tune. And I think that's where I love this, the human beauty movement. To me, when, you know, I found you, Jennifer, I was so excited because I think we have to understand that we're not machines, right? That our bodies are not divorced from our minds, are not divorced from our emotions. Everything is working in tandem together. And the more and more that we look into neuroscience of how our minds are affected by repetition, by the repetitive, you know, stories that are told to us, it gives us this wonderful opportunity to tell ourselves beautiful stories instead of damaging ones.

Tibisay Hernandez:
Whatever damaging story you've had on repeat to reframe that and say, this doesn't have to be my reality, you know, And I. I do have a lot of privilege, and I want to acknowledge all the privilege that I have by. Because I've been able to, you know, access things like mental health and access, you know, things like a walkable community where I feel safe. You know, I want to acknowledge that those things are very, very real. But I can't tell you how my mind and in my experiences, even in being in those space, in these spaces, right, that for all intents and purposes, are leaps and bounds better than where I was in my childhood. Environment wise, my mind is still where the trap and the prison exists, because I can tell you I was in that environment in my childhood.

Tibisay Hernandez:
I was very different and I was free, and I felt love and I didn't feel fear. And even though there were a lot of different things that were going on, I felt loved and I felt community. And there have been times where I've been in this space that's an elevated place, for all intents and purposes, from where I came from and have felt completely broken and shut down. And it wasn't until I started really turning inward that I recognized how much power I have in where I go, what I do, how I affect people, and how I let people affect me.

Jennifer Norman:
Tibi had said to me previous to this podcast, be in a healed space to heal spaces, which I thought was such a beautiful quote. And it reminds me of the idea that, Ann, if you want love, give love. If you want a friend, be a friend. It's all like, you know, let us all, like, be the ones to take charge and to have the courage to cultivate a better world by being more loving, by being more open, by being less blame and shame oriented and, you know, really looking at each other as human beings that all have our individual and unique stories to tell. I think then we'll gain so much appreciation and so much gratitude for all the beauty and love that it really does surround us, that we might have been closed off to because we were, you know, you know, kind of stuck in a lot of our own hurt. And that's totally understandable. But, you know, letting you know the clouds part a little bit, to see a little bit more of that sunshine each day.

Jennifer Norman:
I think just help us to continue to grow and evolve and really get to this place where perhaps we shall eradicate racism for good.

Tibisay Hernandez:
Seriously, I tell people all the time, and go through your village, right? Find. Find a village of positivity. Go outside of your norm. Go outside of the echo chamber of who might exist in your world. Go into spaces where you think, think those people look crazy. They look happy, but they look crazy. Okay. They're doing this extreme frisbee thing and I'm just like, I don't know what world you're living in, but my world is like this. Yeah, right.

Tibisay Hernandez:
They're, they're doing this yoga in the park. Sign up, sign up for anything that looks like people are joyful. I am telling you.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Tibisay Hernandez:
You will find that it completely changes your energy space and can, can make you reframe your understanding of yourself and what's truly possible. Because it is contagious. It is contagious. You are around positive, great minded and great loving people that really want to exude that for real. You'll feel that and you'll catch some of it and it'll make you better. It'll make you better for sure. So find your village.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, Tibi. Well, I am feeling and your energy is contagious and so I'm feeling your energy right now and I want everybody else to feel your energy. So let everybody know where they can find you if they would like to reach out and connect with you.

Tibisay Hernandez:
Absolutely. So you can go to a-curious-space.com that's my website and there you are accessing all of my services, all of my materials. I also create a lot of tools and materials, some that I give away for free to DEI practitioners and you know, just some reflection stuff for folks so that they can start doing the inner work and thinking about how they're going into their spaces. But you could also find me on Instagram at A Curious Space. So I'm on Instagram. I'm also on Facebook at Curious Space Community. So you can find me on Facebook as well. But yeah, I'm excited to, to chat with folks and you know, have a little bit of sliver of hope and positivity.

Tibisay Hernandez:
That's hope. That's what I hope that people can find in a lot of what I'm doing is just practical ways to look at this, practical ways to talk about this that makes sense to them and you know, pathways to connection.

Jennifer Norman:
Tibisay Hernandez, the founder of A Curious Space, beautiful humans. Please look Tibisay up, connect with her. She's based in upstate New York. And I hope that your time with us today was inspiring and that you had learned a little bit of something about what you can do within your own office space. If you work, if you have a company, what you can do. In order to create curious spaces, and then also just as a person, as an individual, what we can do to cultivate some curiosity and some senses of belonging within ourselves. Tibi, thank you so much for being my podcast guest today.

Jennifer Norman:
It was an absolute delight.

Tibisay Hernandez:
Now, thank you so much. Jennifer. I love what you're doing with this movement and I'm a fan, you know, I'm a listener, so keep doing what you do.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you so much.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you for listening to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Be sure to follow, follow rate and review us wherever you stream podcasts The Human Beauty Movement is a community based platform that cultivates the beauty of humankind. Check out our workshops, find us on social media, and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more at thehumanbeautymovement.com. Thank you so much for being a beautiful human.