Overcoming Impostor Syndrome with Destinee Mackey

Jennifer Norman:

Hello, beautiful humans. Welcome to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. My name is Jennifer Norman, founder of The Human Beauty Movement and your host. I created this podcast to have open conversations about all aspects of the human experience. When we're curious, kind, and courageous, we evolve powerfully as individuals and thrive as a human race. I'm so glad you're joining me for today's show.

Jennifer Norman:

Now, at some point in your life, you may have experienced the feeling of impostor syndrome. Maybe you're feeling it right now.

Jennifer Norman:

My guest today is Destinee Mackey. Destinee is a motivational speaker, entrepreneur, and resilient achiever who champions those touched by adversity to feel greater inner peace and healing. And she's here to help us overcome feelings of impostor syndrome. Welcome, Destinee.

Destinee Mackey:

Thank you so much for having me today. I appreciate it.

Jennifer Norman:

Can you tell us what exactly is impostor syndrome as you've discovered it, and tell us what you know of it?

Destinee Mackey:

Sure. So, impostor syndrome is the feeling that you are faking your own success, and maybe that you don't believe that you can contribute all of your own success to yourself. You just feel like that what you are doing, you feel like a total fraud when that actually is not the case.

Jennifer Norman:

I think that a lot of times it's more than just self doubt, isn't it? It's more than just a feeling of being humble, like, oh, I didn't deserve that. The team was behind me. The credit really belongs to somebody else. In fact, I think women and minorities are probably more apt, according to the statistics, to feel impostor syndrome. It's not a clinical diagnosis. It's actually something that is a very popular phrase to relate to that feeling of, oh, my gosh, they're going to find me out. I'm really not all that right. I was looking at some statistics, and I found that about 25% to 30% of high achievers may suffer from impostor syndrome.

Jennifer Norman:

And around 70% of adults may experience impostor syndrome at least once in their lifetime, which is quite a lot. So chances are you've felt this way at some point in your life, and it's not a good feeling. And sometimes also the say that it can be associated with other mental health conditions like anxiety or depression. And interestingly enough, it's something that is not just excessive humility, it is like this constant fear of exposure, isolation and rejection.

Destinee Mackey:

Absolutely.

Jennifer Norman:

As I understand it, there are four p's of impostor syndrome. The first is perfectionism. And the perfectionist is somebody who strives for flawlessness to prevent exposure as fraud. So they try to essentially do whatever they can to make something as good as possible, and it leads to this performance anxiety. And as a result, that's a big roadblock of their success. You also see that there is, like, this sense of paralysis. Like, I just can't go on any further. You feel that way.

Jennifer Norman:

Or there's also this sense of needing to please people, this people pleasing idea that might help prevent the feeling. And then there's also procrastination, like, oh, I'm just going to bide my time and not get to it, because just feeling, like, don't really know which way to turn. And so sometimes we feel that we're not really sure how to deal with it. And those aren't necessarily the best ways to deal with the sense of impostor syndrome. What are some of the better ways to deal with it?

Destinee Mackey:

Well, I guess it depends on where the source of your impostor syndrome is. I think it mostly comes from either people who have parents or family members that push high achieving things on them. Like, we want you to be a doctor. We want you to get straight a's. We want you to be the best of the best. And then I think there's people that have impostor syndrome just from society. And unfortunately, I know, at least in the United States, we're in a society where sometimes there's not second chances and you have to be perfect the first time around, or else we're going to replace you. Whether it's at jobs or even if you fail a test in college, it could bring your entire grade down.

Destinee Mackey:

So there's not a lot of forgiveness and understanding for people to be able to make mistakes and learn from their mistakes. So at that point, that's why you feel that impostor syndrome, because other people aren't giving you the patience and the kindness and the understanding that is completely normal and is completely needed when you're learning or you're trying to do something new. Right? So some of the things that you can do, it just depends, like I said, on the source of your impostor syndrome, but really just diving in and asking yourself questions, why do I feel the need to be perfect? Why do I feel the need to completely be approved by others? That don't make me feel good if I'm not at my 100%, really just diving in and figuring out and asking yourself those hard questions, why do I put so much pressure on myself to be this way?

Jennifer Norman:

Yeah, we call that superhuman. Like, we want to be the best of the best. And we put so much pressure on ourselves to be everything with accomplishments and success. A lot of times it leads to this workaholism. It's like, I've just got to continue working and doing things because then people will at least see that I'm productive and that I'm constructive and putting output out there and not necessarily addressing the fact that they feel intimidated inside about trying to achieve more. And I think other people, they just think, oh, I'm a natural genius at something. Things typically come easy to me, but here I am in a new situation and I'm like, oh, my gosh. Feel like a fraud.

Jennifer Norman:

Like, usually really good at X, Y and Z. And then they've given me a promotion, and now I'm like, oh, my God, I don't know if I'm up to this. There's that. Yeah. And people who also try to do things all by themselves, they're like, now you can't depend on the team. I need to do it myself. Those people are also called the soloist. They sometimes feel really overwhelmed, but that can lead to feelings of inadequacy and self doubt as well.

Jennifer Norman:

And other people, they position themselves as experts. Everybody today is an expert or a self professed expert at something on the Internet, right? And so then it's kind of like, oh, no, what if they find out I'm not as expert as they should be or as they claim to be? So that's often the case. I know that from a career perspective and from a human resource perspective, if there are job postings, women and minorities are typically the ones that won't even apply for a job. If they see that there's all of these qualification criteria and they're like, oh, I don't think that I have that. I don't think that I have that. And so I'm not even going to apply. They look at it as a checklist that they have to have everything nailed or else they're intimidated to apply. They don't want to even feel that kind of impostor syndrome.

Jennifer Norman:

Whereas, oddly enough, men tend to just go for it. It's just a matter of fact, it's one of those statistics. And so a lot of times we tell women, just do it. Just try. And the worst that can happen is just like, okay, maybe it's not a right fit, but part of overcoming that impostor syndrome is just recognizing that everybody feels it. Right? Everybody feels it. But some people just do it scared.

Destinee Mackey:

Right? You just got to do it. You just got to rip off the Band Aid.

Jennifer Norman:

At that point, being upfront and letting people know, it's like, you know what? Sometimes I feel like a fraud and it's like part of human nature. And I think everybody else can be like, yeah, we relate. Everybody feels that way. And the only way to succeed is to fail. You got to fail. It's part of the journey of success, is just making sure that you don't fear that failure. You don't have to get everything right every single time. You don't have to be perfect 100% of the time.

Jennifer Norman:

You got to be willing to fail and make the mistakes. And I would love for society to be more ready to congratulate people for their bravery of trying, rather than being like, oh, you failed at this or that person. That was the worst decision ever and really making a big deal out of failures. Because in this day and age, we should be like, okay. The way to innovate, the way that we get things done is experimentation, curiosity, being willing to put yourself out there, and it's okay.

Destinee Mackey:

Right? Nobody starts off an expert. You got to learn. Everybody learns eventually, but you have to do it. You have to constantly fail. You have to constantly learn from your failures, like you said.

Jennifer Norman:

Yeah, I was going to say, having a healthy sense of humor about it all is often a good thing, right?

Destinee Mackey:

Well, having a good support system helps, too. If you're surrounded by people that expect the best out of you, expect you to live up to their expectations 24/7 they're not people you want to keep in your circle for very long. You want to be able to surround yourself with people that are going to accept you whether you fail or not, but are going to continue to push you to be your better self without all the judgment, without of all the harsh criticism, but just love and support.

Jennifer Norman:

Right? Can you give me an example of a support system that you've put into place for yourself?

Destinee Mackey:

Absolutely. I have a wonderful relationship with my husband, and we are just so accepting of each other. And I think that's important in marriage anyway, being able to see each other's differences and being able to be supportive of each other. But even if he wants to do something that I don't necessarily see value in or something that I don't agree with, I'm still going to support him through it because that's what he wants, and that is what's going to make him happy. And when you're happy and you're doing something that you want, you'll be more motivated to do it. So we have a lot of times, whether it's with my business or with the business he's trying to create for himself, we are very supportive of each other, and we're not saying, well, you need to meet this standard by this time, or else there's going to be repercussions, or I'm going to leave you, which I've actually heard stories of people leaving their significant others for these types of things, but just being very patient and understanding that we're both learning something new and it's going to take time.

Jennifer Norman:

Yeah, I actually heard an interesting story about, I think that it was actually Hugh Jackman, and he was going through this audition process to be Jean Valjean for Les Mis. And it was like the first role of this kind of a magnitude that he had done. I mean, he had been in theater before and done Wolverine and all of these wonderful performances, but this one was very big, singing live the whole entire show and really doing justice to a character who was so beloved and well known on Broadway for years. And so he felt the weight of the world on him. And he actually went to Tony Robbins, contacted him, and he's like, how do I get over this fear? How do I get over this feeling of impostor syndrome? And interestingly enough, Tony Robbins gave him the advice, the fear is good. The fear is there for a reason. It's not that you want to get rid of the fear. The fear might be maybe you need to do a little bit more practicing.

Jennifer Norman:

Maybe your performance isn't there. Maybe you can just continue to perfect and to grow and to really just put your all into that role so that you rise to that occasion. And lo and behold, the was nominated for an Oscar. So you can't deny that he got to a place where his performance was really good, and he was very proud of how he did, and he put his all into it physically and just through the training and everything. But, yeah, just like, showing yourself what that vision is of what you want, recognizing that fear is a part of the growth, that even if you were to fail, it's not the end of the world. It's not the end of anything. It's just a stepping stone to a greater success and understanding that you're still at a place where you're learning, you're curious, you're growing, giving yourself permission to be human. And that support group that Destinee was mentioning about people that are okay with you being vulnerable, being yourself, being imperfect, and not expecting you to put on this front, to put on a showcase that loves you because of you, who you are and is willing to help look at you with an objective eye and even coach and share and mentor and say, hey, I think that this could be tweaked and that would make it so much better.

Jennifer Norman:

If it's in a performance or if it's in a team setting, it's like, make each other better. Don't be so easy to be in competition with each other. Let's be in a nurturing environment where we just cheer each other on and that will help us alleviate and get to these places of just great, great performance and innovation.

Destinee Mackey:

Absolutely. You said it best. And when you do, just start putting yourself out there and pushing through the negative feelings that you have about yourself and the self doubts, you're going to attract the right people. Whether it's in your personal life, if it's in your job or whatever it is, you will attract the right people by putting yourself out there. So don't allow fear to hold you back from doing that.

Jennifer Norman:

Yeah. For women, I know from my own personal feelings, it's like a lot of times women never feel like they're good enough in anything that they do. It's like, oh, I'm not a good enough mom, I'm not a good enough spouse. I'm not good enough in my career. I'm like, you put so much pressure on yourself. I know. I still do that. And it's something that I'm working on each and every day to say, you know what? It's okay.

Jennifer Norman:

I actually am doing the best that I can. And if we all realize that the way that we're living is the best that we can and really just strive to be that, like, 1% better each day, even if we don't make it, it's like, okay, tomorrow is another day to try it, but I'm going to give myself permission to just be okay with myself and love every moment of what I'm doing and feel enthusiasm for what I'm doing, and that way I'm going to spend this energy being positive rather than destructive, because these feelings of impostor syndrome and self doubt, all of these things that creep up, they take a lot of energy, don't they? They take a lot of just, like, thinking mental overwhelm that could otherwise be put to better use.

Destinee Mackey:

Right, exactly. And I remember when I started working in real estate, I had never worked in real estate before, never had any kind of experience. I was so nervous. And when I accepted the job, I was like, what am I doing? I can't do real estate. I don't know what I'm doing. I know nothing about houses. I know nothing about legal documents to buy a house. But over time, as you started making your first sale and your second sale and your third sale, you're like, wow, I actually can do this.

Destinee Mackey:

And I've been holding my own skills back because I thought I wasn't capable of doing this.

Jennifer Norman:

Not trying to guilt ourselves about feeling it, recognizing and knowing what it is is like, oh, I see what's going on here, and just playing a little game with it and being like, you know what, it's going to happen, but heck with it. I'm just going to try it anyway or do it anyway. It's like I'm going to just continue moving forward because I love what I'm doing and I'm going to do it the best that I can. And that's the best is the best that I can do. Let it be. And then know that if it turns out that there is ongoing criticism or if there's something that is wrong, it's probably not you. It could be the environment, it could be the situation that you find yourself and so remove yourself from that situation and try something new. It's never too late to try something new.

Destinee Mackey:

Absolutely. And everybody starts where you are. Nobody starts off perfect. Like I've said, nobody starts off an expert. So you got to start somewhere.

Jennifer Norman:

Yeah. Every great leader puts his pants on one leg at a time, right? Well, destiny, it was a pleasure talking with you today about this topic. I know it'll be extremely helpful for so many.

Destinee Mackey:

Thank you so much for having me.

Jennifer Norman:

Thank you for listening to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Be sure to follow, rate, and review us wherever you stream podcasts. The Human Beauty Movement is a community-based platform that cultivates the beauty of humankind. Check out our workshops, find us on social media, and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more at thehumanbeautymovement.com. Thank you so much for being a beautiful human.