Enneagram Personality Archetypes with Indra Rinzler

Jennifer Norman:
Hello beautiful humans. Welcome to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast, your source for hope, healing, happiness and humanity. My name is Jennifer Norman. I'm the founder of The Human Beauty Movement and your host. This podcast is here to guide you on your journey of self love, empowerment, soul alignment and joy. With each episode, I invite beautiful humans from all corners of the globe to join me for open conversations about their life lessons and the important work that they are doing to help heal humankind. Take a moment now to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss an episode. I'm so glad you're here, joining me for today's show.

Jennifer Norman:
This is going to be a truly illuminating episode, my beautiful humans. It's one that promises to pave a path toward inner peace and and higher understanding. If you're feeling restless, searching for meaning, or sensing the call to wake up, but are struggling to find answers, my guest, Indra Rinzler is here to light the way. Indra is a lifetime spiritual seeker who's devoted to helping others awaken to who they truly are. With 50 years of study and application in astrology and over 20 years working with the Enneagram, Indra uses these powerful tools to help people break free from conditioned patterns. He's been a healer and teacher, offering life readings to illuminate the deeper truths within us all. Beyond his spiritual wisdom, Indra's life story is a remarkable journey in itself. From being a children's book publisher to living in an Ashram for 20 years and spending decades in India deepening his knowledge of the ancient Yugas, Indra blends Vedic astrology with the Enneagram to help people achieve spiritual freedom and rediscover their connection with Gaia Earth. In this episode, we'll delve into Indra's wisdom on how he helps people wake up and discover the inner peace they so often search for outside themselves.

Jennifer Norman:
You'll gain unique insights into your own life, explore what it means to live authentically, connect with nature and unlock truths about yourself. This is a conversation that just might change the way you view yourself and the world around you. It's now my honor to welcome Indra Rinzler to the show. Hi, Indra. I'm so happy to have you here.

Indra Rinzler:
Thanks, Jenn. It's nice to be here. Thank you for that introduction.

Jennifer Norman:
Oh, you are most welcome. And I can't wait for our conversation. You've had such a fascinating background. You have to tell us what your personal spiritual healing journey was and how it led you to study and share astrology. Enneagram of Personality.

Indra Rinzler:
Well, I think the personal healing journey is and isn't, was, is still going on. I don't think it ever ends. How the Enneagram and astrology came together was rather simple. Is that when I first ran into the Enneagram about 25 years ago, I immediately felt a connection to astrology. It became the rest of my lifetime. Soul call, which I didn't really know, but I could have maybe assumed, I would have guessed.

Indra Rinzler:
To use the two modalities together to understand myself, to understand. It's all about energy. It's. It's all about the energy. It's not about rules. It's about how things feel and what's going on. And there's so many more tools that help to place us in this life. And when we use them together, they help us to hone in a little bit closer.

Jennifer Norman:
I think about man's search for meaning. A lot of us are here thinking like, well, what is the meaning of life? And why am I here? What is my purpose? Who am I? All these deep thoughts and all of these deep questions that lead us to a greater sense of space, spirituality. That there is something, there is some energy that connects us to the divine, that connects us to the universe and to each other and really causes us to feel that we're here for a good reason. And so you found that in astrology and Enneagram.

Indra Rinzler:
What I found was to let go of the idea of good reason. To let go of the story of purpose and meaning. When I hold on to all of that, then I had expectations and then it wasn't good enough. And then it needed to be more chocolatey or more this or more that. And so I really ended up trying to let go of all of it and just it is what it is and it doesn't have to have a meaning. The beauty of it is that it doesn't have to have a meaning other than what you feel in the moment. And the rest of it is, can be that it's for appearance or it's for purpose.

Indra Rinzler:
And look at me. And what did you say? 54? I forget. 54? 20? 47?

Jennifer Norman:
My age? 54.

Indra Rinzler:
Yeah, 54. So I mean, yeah, at 54. Yeah, absolutely. But in the late 70s, the whole idea of why disappears. Don't need to know why, don't care why. Just care in the moment what I feel and what's trying to happen. That was a phrase at the community.

Indra Rinzler:
That was a phrase at the community. What's trying to happen? Which was a way of not of letting go of control, even though it can be controlling. But the thing is, is to try to let go of the control in order to what's trying to happen here without getting my needs and expectations out of the way.

Jennifer Norman:
So you think that people try too hard? Is that what you're saying?

Indra Rinzler:
Well, it's not the way I would have said it. Try too hard. I think there are no mistakes, and I think that there is nothing wrong. And so trying too hard is also a story. You have to try, you have to make mistakes. Mistakes, quote, unquote mistakes. You have to get it wrong, you have to get hurt, you have to be beat up in order to learn, because that's the only way we learn. And I think that the purpose is that rather than what it leads to.

Indra Rinzler:
So just being the being, totally being. I got this.

Jennifer Norman:
Letting it flow.

Indra Rinzler:
Yeah, I got this inward message. One of the few times I got this kind of an inward message 25 years ago, and I felt that I needed to go to Rishikesh in India. Not the first time I went to India, but the starting of the India traveling, that cycle of 25 years of traveling. And I got an inward message to go to Rishikesh and be and not do. Well, isn't that dull? No, it's not dull, but where's the action? Well, there's plenty of action. Like, you're not doing enough. Okay.

Indra Rinzler:
Yeah, no, I'm not. It's because that doesn't mean that there isn't so much stuff happening that you have to grab onto something because life is moving so fast and you're changing so fast that it's enough already.

Jennifer Norman:
So then it's curious to me why you would gravitate to Enneagram. Because Enneagram labels people by nine personality types. So isn't that a reflection of ego, or is it a reflection of nature and energy, of people's proclivities? Can you help us?

Indra Rinzler:
Yeah, it's a reflection of both. So the idea here is, is that we're already boxed in. Okay. The Enneagram doesn't box us in. The Enneagram gives us the shape of the box, the nature of the box. And by understanding the box, it gives clarity, which then helps us. If you're trying to stumble around at night to find the bathroom. Not that I would turn on the light, but if you turn on the light, you can kind of guide yourself better, especially if you're in a place you haven't been before.

Indra Rinzler:
So the light is the Enneagram. And again, it's neutral, it's neither good nor bad. Absolutely. It can be used for quote unquote negativity. You can be boxed in, you can get very, very linear. You're a type and you're stuck there. But that's not the way I think of it.

Indra Rinzler:
Or yes, of course everything is susceptible to that.

Jennifer Norman:
True. And I felt that way about astrology on many points of my life where if somebody said oh, I'm a Scorpio, it was almost an excuse or it was a bit disempowering, like well, this is how I am and I'm not going to be able to change versus I'm a person of agency and I have a choice.

Indra Rinzler:
Absolutely. The stars they incline, they don't compel. Astrology has been susceptible for millenniums of crappy thoughts and manipulative ideas. Right from the beginning, around the 2000-1000 BC there was a real question about fate versus free will. And I can't say that it's something that I can understand because it's just a little bit beyond me. But the idea of it is, is that is once you begin to think that there's something bigger than you, then you don't have any faith, freedom in that something bigger than you. And it's a total misunderstanding and manipulation of the teachings.

Indra Rinzler:
But it's part of the conditioning. Insecurities and the conditioning that have been passed down for to say 5,000 years from generation to generation that I believe the Enneagram enunciates. And then it helps to relieve, to release.

Jennifer Norman:
For those listeners who are not familiar with Enneagram, would you be able to do a little bit of a 101?

Indra Rinzler:
Sure. Like the freeway?

Jennifer Norman:
No, not like the freeway. That's a mess. A simple introduction.

Indra Rinzler:
Sure, sure. The Enneagram is... The term is said to be Greek. The teachings don't have necessarily anything to do with Greece. But Enneagram means nine sided figure and it's three geometric shapes that create nine points and these. So Enneagram is the term means nine sided figure.

Indra Rinzler:
And so there's nine points. And then for the Enneagram of Personality, these are the nine personality types on a psychological level. They are archetypes and they're ways of understanding that we break human story and somehow it fits into these nine types. But I believe, like I say before, I believe that it's larger than that, that this is the spiritually. It gives us the ability to unwind the entire story in order to be free of the conditioned stories, the starting that are in all of the. Not to pick on astrology, but in the kind of astrology where you give your power away. And you are held to a fate. And you are held to a fate if you don't go beyond it.

Indra Rinzler:
But the opportunity is always there to go beyond it. That's doing your work. And I think that's the purpose, not the destination, but the journey.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah, free will. So as far as the nine different types, again, for those who are not as familiar with the Enneagram, can you give a little bit of an overview on what those nine types are so that people have a little bit more understanding of what the heck we're talking about here?

Indra Rinzler:
Okay, yeah. The Enneagram is a little bit nebulous. So the idea here is that there are three centers of intelligence or instincts. Those are anger, emotion and fear. And while we have all three of them in us, one of them is at our core. And there's also three ways of reacting to energy that would be going outward to it - that's the extrovert. Pulling back from it, the introvert. And those that live in a neutral strategy of observing before behavior.

Indra Rinzler:
So when you multiply three instincts times three reactions to energy, you get nine unique Enneagram vibrational signatures. And so the anger types are called 8, 9 and 1. They also have names, but of course we don't agree on the names, the numbers. There's no hierarchy in the name. So the anger types are 8, 9 and 1.

Indra Rinzler:
Anger is the anger, outward is the 8. That's called The Boss. And they it is the most assertive. I like to say it's all offense, no defense. They're covering up the teddy bear in their heart that they don't want you to see. The 9 is the neutral anger type and it's called The Peacemaker. And it deals with accommodating to other people. Because if I disengage from myself, then I'll always have harmony around me, because harmony is very discomforting to my nervous system. And the 1 which is the introverted anger is The Perfectionist who finds safety in controlling their lives to do everything perfectly, which is a standard that they totally make up and is changeable.

Indra Rinzler:
So then we come to the emotion types, that's 2, 3 and 4, emotion bodied or image types. And 2 is the outward one that's called The Helper. And they protect themselves by taking care of other people all the time so that they will create a codependency will then prove to the world that they are in fact worthy of love, which is their fatal flaw. The 3 who achieves, who is The Achiever or producer and succeeds at producing and accomplishing in order to show their worth. And the 4 is the inward emotion type, The Individualist, who is the artist and the sensitive and the easily hurt and can feel everything.And then we get to the fear, 5, 6, and 7. A fear inward is The Observer, the 5 who protects themselves by knowing everything, by understanding how everything works, by being very mental about everything. The 6 is The Loyalist who has the anxiety and fear and doubt. And the 7, which is my story, The Enthusiast who is charming and full of stories and enthusiasm and runs away because, not actually it looks like they're running toward, but they're actually running away from their own feelings and the inner emptiness, which is the key, the key story for the 7.

Indra Rinzler:
So they all have a downside. They all have a very high upside. The loyalty, the duty and the courage teaching us duty, encourage and faith of the six, the seven, the enthusiasm and the playfulness with life and the living in sobriety, living on the moment rather than moment to moment. All of them have a high side, all of them have a really ugly low side. And the idea is that when you understand the strategy at work, it brings a lot of clarity. And you say, for me, the healing, and I didn't mean if I missed some of your questions, but the healing journey came around. I think my understanding my own story and understanding other people's stories, it gave me much more clarity that I could react to them, but it really made no sense to me.

Indra Rinzler:
And when I understood it in this analytical way, then, and what happens is, is that your compassion, your understanding increases, your compassion increases for other people's stories. You're able to then drop defenses and restrictions.

Jennifer Norman:
So I think that people who are listening, probably when you were going through those nine different personality types, whether it's fear, emotion or anger, can probably see themselves pretty clearly more apt as one of those numbers, one of those types versus the other. Then you're like me, who sees themselves in just about every one of them and still has no idea.

Indra Rinzler:
Oh, I see. So you're being without the birthday, without the birth date, Then you're okay. So we have one for that. That's the 9.

Jennifer Norman:
The Peacemaker. Yeah, yeah, I think so. And I've thought to myself, well, I am a person who likes harmony and likes to keep the peace. I am a moderation person.

Jennifer Norman:
And for those of you out there who are listening, who don't know my story, I was an abandoned child. I was born in Korea and was adopted at the age of two. And so I don't know what my real birth date is. I was just given one and when I was younger, July 28 being the birthday that was assigned to me, I identified as a Leo. And I was proud and really wore that. I just thought, okay, if I'm a Leo, then this is how I need to show up in the world. I have to be glamorous and I have to show. And so I was a very different person back then and it didn't serve me very well. Felt like underneath it all, I really didn't know who I was. There's, I think, a lot of people who are adopted and who don't have birth parents or family that is really very much like them feel a little bit like a fish out of water. And so that's pretty much the history of how I was.

Jennifer Norman:
And so there was this interest in finding ways and modalities to get to know myself a little bit more. And so yeah, I did delve into Enneagram and Jungian archetypes and a little bit of astrology, a little bit of gene keys and all of those things just to see what I could find. I even went to a an Akashic Records reader at one point, which was fascinating and eye opening. But yeah, I think that all of these are just really interesting tools and techniques for us to get to know ourselves. But the important thing is, is that this isn't fortune telling. This isn't something that is going to tell you what going to happen in your life and what your fate is. It's essentially helping you to understand how your energy resides and what your proclivities are, what your nature is. And knowing that a bit more, it helps you to understand your reactions, it helps you to understand your baseline, it helps you to understand you at your best.

Jennifer Norman:
And it also helps for you to understand all the relationships that you have. Because there might be people that you are in love with that are in your social circle that are very different from you and you can tell right away, okay, they're in a bad mood and this is how they're going to be be when they're under stress or this is how they are when they just show up and they're just at their very best. Can you say a little bit more about any of those thoughts, Indra?

Indra Rinzler:
Well, I think you stated it very well. I like to say that I put the puzzle part, not I, but the readings, the teachings, I put the puzzle parts together. The people have most of the puzzle parts, but they don't understand the interconnectedness of everything, the interconnectedness of their own part, puzzle parts and the interconnectedness of everything. And I've been thinking of it more as an alignment. The process is more of an aligning with the higher self in thinking of it as, it's a lot of manual work on the lower side, if you think of it. The modalities.

Indra Rinzler:
And then we understand. And there's a lot of. I'm doing a lot of work. Like we're all worker bees, worker ants doing our work. I think the alignment is a little bit of a higher way where it's not really me doing anything. I don't want to be doing anything. I don't want to take ownership of it. I don't want to take.

Indra Rinzler:
I'm not God. I'm just, just. I'm a mere participant in it. And getting into the being in the ocean without.

Jennifer Norman:
You're sounding like a nine.

Indra Rinzler:
Well, I live with a nine.

Jennifer Norman:
I don't know if you're sounding like an enthusiast right now, but. No, no question you are.

Indra Rinzler:
Yes, it may be a 9ish idea, but it's coming from the seven energies. My wife isn't on doing the podcast.

Jennifer Norman:
But maybe she is.

Jennifer Norman:
Maybe you channel her more than you know.

Indra Rinzler:
She doesn't need to. So. So, yeah, I think the process is the alignment. And I think in the alignment, then it just happens automatically and then there's not so much huffing and puffing. Do you understand what I mean?

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. I want to also ask you a question about as we go through life, because I think that there is. You're born and you're pretty much probably an old soul when you're first born. And then you forget things, you forget your spiritual nature, and then you start living in this world and there are rules and regulations and then there's ego that is built and the way that we are shaped in, like, finding our place in our social circles for survival or for acceptance. Ancient times it was for survival so that you could be part of the tribe, as it were. Now it's more status seeking and it's more like, let me show you how elevated I am in this world.

Indra Rinzler:
Acceptance is survival.

Jennifer Norman:
Yes. Yes, it is. It's social survival.

Indra Rinzler:
Yeah.

Jennifer Norman:
And then for some who can go through age and wisdom, gain wisdom and experience, such as yourself, you get to this place, which is on Maslow's hierarchy, more like enlightenment, more like this path of I don't need that anymore. I understand my sense of self in the bigger picture and I have a greater alignment and attunement to spirituality. That doesn't always happen when you're 20. That doesn't always happen when you're a teenager. You, you might be at a different place in your evolution, in your personal evolution. But I guess my question is, do you think that true spirituality and wisdom can only be gained once you go through these steps and that you've had, you've culminated this kind of experience and you've learned a little bit more about your reactions and how you are in your baseline? Or do you think it is something that can be adopted at 10 years old, 20 years old, and that you would all of a sudden know what your personality type is and it's fixed?

Indra Rinzler:
Well, I think that the enlightenment at 10 and 20 years old is not the same as the enlightenment at 80. The teachers in India always go back to talk about Ramana Maharshi who had his awakening experience as a 16 year old and then proceeded to live in a cave meditating and deepening his teachings for 19 years. So I've heard this 16 and 19 is 35. So I've heard this idea of the teacher, the people that have awakening when they have awakening experiences. I thought this was interesting. When people have awakening experiences and you hear people in social media or they're promoting their work and I've had awakening experiences, I've come to understand that this really is called a pre awakening experience and that 10 to 20 years later then you might have more of an awakening experience, not the pre awakening experience, because the pre awakening is, there's no 10 year old, is an ancient soul. So I can't say that 10 year old, a human 10 year old, I don't know how they could get there. But if they have that divinity old soul and it's just in the body of a 10 year old, then that's not the same, that's not the same animal.

Indra Rinzler:
But I think that the reality in terms of the question you're asking is that it's a continual deepening and that's part of the understanding that comes in later is that I haven't achieved anything. And that's okay. I'm not trying to achieve anything. It's already there. We're already enlightened. We're just trying to get the schmutz out of the way that's blocking our own realization of it.

Jennifer Norman:
The schmutz? What is the schmutz?

Indra Rinzler:
That's an old Jewish term.

Jennifer Norman:
Yes, it is.

Indra Rinzler:
The schmutz is the misunderstandings. The schmutz is the restrictions. The schmutz is the need for safety. Apparent need for safety and doing things to protect when you're not really protecting, you're holding. And it's all the flings and arrows of outrageous fortune. It's just what it is. It's life. And it's not any more than that where it's that I'm good at or I'm bad or I did it good or I didn't do it good.

Indra Rinzler:
It's just, it's. It's learning to let go of all of that. Is that if you're in the middle of the desert and somebody comes with an ice cream cone, you probably won't care what flavor it is.

Jennifer Norman:
Very good. Very good. It seems like the world today. If we were to just like you mentioned social media, if we look at the news, there seems to be a lot of polarization. There seems to be a lot of digging in of the heels. And my point of view is correct and your point of view is wrong. And there's us against them, right against wrong. The dualistic plane is really showcasing itself in full force.

Jennifer Norman:
What do you perceive as the state of the world today and what is happening here?

Indra Rinzler:
Well, the social media thing you were just talking about, what came up to my mind was adolescent. It's an adolescent stage. And the world situation is pretty chaotic. I don't have it. I don't need it to be any different than it is. I don't need to get anything from it. I don't need it to be a certain way.

Indra Rinzler:
I think it's just a worm. I forget what it is. Going through the cocoon to become the butterfly. Whatever it was before, it's the. I call it Death Dance of the Dinosaur, Hollywood style. Whatever it is, it's just total chaos. But it's everybody trying to find their own. It's everybody.

Indra Rinzler:
There's seven, eight billion people and everybody is a little bit. Is the same. Absolutely the same, but yet totally different. Different fingerprints, somehow different. Leave a different fingerprint. Not only do we leave a different fingerprint, being here is different than the podcast tomorrow and the podcast the day after. If I had one. It's just, it's all different.

Indra Rinzler:
Even though it's the same and it's the subtlety of it that it's, again, I don't know why I brought up ice cream, but the ice cream is all cold. But it has this slightly. That's different flavor and it's Just it makes it completely different, yet at the same time it's known because the experience is known. And so that's the subtlety of it. And so the world, I don't take it too seriously anymore. I'm going to India, I'll be in India in a month. And India makes no sense. From here and from India, this makes no sense.

Indra Rinzler:
I've learned to not need either to make sense when I'm in the one that I'm in, let alone when I'm not in the one that I'm in. And so the thing is, is that it's just being here now and not beyond not having a need to restrict it and to make it into, fit into any box at all. That's the free will.

Jennifer Norman:
So is that what you were saying earlier when you're like trying to make meaning of it, if people are trying to understand it, is that one of the aspects of suffering is trying to make it make sense?

Indra Rinzler:
Yeah, absolutely. It's a big aspect of suffering.

Jennifer Norman:
So I alleviate myself from any suffering. I just give up. I don't even want to make sense of it anymore.

Indra Rinzler:
And it's okay to have that. Give it meaning. You need to give it meaning at a time like if you're 14 years old, give it meaning, dude, you know, you got to those tools disappear. What the 18 year old does and gets away with isn't the 8 year old, isn't the 4 year old, isn't the 35 year old or the 55 year old. It's not only about the age, but there seems to be because I've studied this a lot scientifically that there are enough patterns and that we can ignore some of it for a while, but eventually we have to fill all in all the boxes. The searching for an identity is so 9ish that it's your blessing, not your curse. It's your path forward.

Jennifer Norman:
The search of identity or aligning with an identity.

Indra Rinzler:
The search.

Jennifer Norman:
The search for an identity is a 9. You said it's more 9ish.

Indra Rinzler:
Yes, it is 9ish. But I'm saying that, that it's so obvious that that's your work here, that it's in tonal alignment with the work of learning that I don't have to understand who I am, that I can go beyond understanding who I am in an identification way. We need to come into the identification, then we have to let go of the identification, but we have to completely come into the identification in order to be able to let it go.

Jennifer Norman:
I think that is the difference between where somebody makes that conscious choice versus somebody who's just apathetic or detached. And it's just like, I don't care. Like it's not important to me. Lacking enthusiasm or lacking just like a drive of even really. Like it just isn't. Meh.

Indra Rinzler:
Well, sure, yeah. That's a stage. And it can be that later on that the apathy can be really good to be able to get to a life situation and that you really care about and then to be able to let go the consequences.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. A lot of people will say enjoy the journey but don't have an attachment to the outcome.

Indra Rinzler:
That is very helpful. Talking about suffering. That's a good way not to suffer. That's helpful to let go of suffering.

Jennifer Norman:
Right, right. Speaking of all of this deep stuff. So you talk about Four Doorways to Conscious Living, and I would love for you to share with our listeners a little bit more of what these are and how they can help people live more mindfully.

Indra Rinzler:
Okay, yeah, great. Thank you for that. The Four Doorways to Conscious Living. I like to say at the end of the reading, people say, this is great information, Indra. Now what the heck do I do with it? And so here's what you do with it. And it's the Four Doorways to Conscious Living. It is what it says. It's a process.

Indra Rinzler:
So the first doorway is to learn to observe. So we need to learn to watch our own thinking and behavior. And we need to learn to watch our reactions to other people's thinking and behavior. We need to get out of the movie of our life into the audience to give ourselves a perspective on our own own stuff and thoughts and all of the things that we take. Very important. We need to get a detachment from that in order to see it objectively.Then we need to let go and release what doesn't serve us. Letting go involves being aware of a feeling, letting it come up without wanting to do anything about it or make it different in any way.

Indra Rinzler:
And then the third doorway is to love ourselves. When we let go enough of what doesn't serve us, then we will then naturally appear, as in loving ourself. And then the fourth doorway is to live in the moment. If we live in the moment, then we love ourselves. It's the same. So how do we love ourselves? By letting go and releasing whatever doesn't serve us. One last step.

Indra Rinzler:
How do we know what to let go is? By learning to observe. Life itself will tell us what it is that our resistances are. And those resistances, the point of them is to let go of them, to see through them.

Jennifer Norman:
Okay, so one more time. The first is being able to observe yourself and other people being self aware. The second one.

Indra Rinzler:
Yes. The second one is letting go and releasing what doesn't serve us.

Jennifer Norman:
Letting go, releasing what does not serve you. Being aware of what doesn't serve you and then just choosing and being able to let it go. Which is not as easy as it sounds.

Indra Rinzler:
Yeah. Most of the work is in number two. And it's a continual, what do they call it? Rinse and repeat. It's a continual process of letting go because it has so many stickers and thorns, people.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Indra Rinzler:
And then you appear on the other side as you love yourself. There's a big gap between 2 and 3. But we don't want to again, we don't want to make it this gap of I'll never get there. The fact is, is you do get there. You just need to stay there more, that's all. I mean, we do have moments of getting there and loving ourselves and living in the moment. And the process is, is just to spend more time there and it's just to keep releasing whatever it is. And the beau these years and ages is that all the experiences give us more data in order to be able to make the changes.

Indra Rinzler:
That is incredibly hard. Calling somebody when you're 15 on the phone that you don't know and 25 getting your heart broken and 35 being bankrupt and divorced. It's like you just. You don't think you can get over it, but you do. And the point is, is you become more resilient in it. You can become more embittered, you can become more negative, you can become more stuck in your patterns.

Indra Rinzler:
But the opportunity there is to release that problem is that if you don't hear your lesson the next time, it gets harder. The lessons don't get any easier. They get harder. If we don't hear it, then it gets ramped up. It's got more amperage or wattage or something the next time we get it. And that's okay. I'm happy with that too. But that is a reality that if it's a feather at first, then it eventually it becomes a two by four.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah. There's so much to mindfulness and conscious living. I love how you express this as four doorways. Because opening up one door and walking through it and being able to be fully immersed in that through that doorway really is consciousness. It is awareness. It's understanding where you are and where your place is, and then knowing how to love yourself today, love yourself right now, irregardless of what your goals for yourself are. It's like, here I am and this is where I'm starting today is a fresh start. Right now, in this moment.

Jennifer Norman:
This is my starting point. And knowing that every moment after that is a gift and then being able to just be fully present, it's one of the reasons why I love podcasting. I always feel like it's an act of self love and being able to engage and learn and also be fully present. I never really feel as fully present as when I'm having these kinds of deep conversations. And so I really look at this as an expression of awareness of what brings me joy, of awareness of what the world might need in terms of instruction or understanding or inspiration. Self love and then just being...having the ability to be fully present. So it's truly a gift, I find.

Jennifer Norman:
I imagine that you do too. After hearing that you've been on about 75 different podcasts. I imagine that this is also an act of self love for you and consciousness.

Indra Rinzler:
I think so. Well put. The interest. It's over a hundred now. And I would have to say that, as I say, I had no idea why I did it, but I think that the reason that I'm not a 9, but I'm a 7 is that I could totally, well, I'm an Enthusiast, but I did it because it just felt right, but I didn't have the ability as the nine to realize that it's, well, the reason I enjoy it is because it's an act of self love that brings you into the presence. Absolutely. I never thought of it that way. So I really appreciate that you put that to it. That's your gift right there. You just nailed it.

Jennifer Norman:
Lovely. Okay, and now let's talk about this Wheel of Totality.

Indra Rinzler:
Okay.

Jennifer Norman:
This is the first time that I've ever heard of this, what a Wheel of Totality is. And so please, for our listeners, describe what the heck the Wheel of Totality is and at how it can reveal our life blind spots.

Indra Rinzler:
Okay. So thank you for that. I got to sit up for this. So the Wheel of Totality is something that I like to say spirit gave me maybe eight or ten years ago. What it is is that it's pre astrology, but it's set up like astrology. So there are 12 houses and the idea here is that every house contains awareness. Every house contains awareness. A different awareness, that's a different flavor.

Indra Rinzler:
The beauty of breakfast, the beauty of lunch, and the beauty of dinner, it's not the same. Okay, so each house contains an awareness. But if you don't have a planet in that house in your natal chart, then that awareness is a blind spot. And we don't start working on our blind spots until we're 50. And why is that? Because in our 20s and 30s, we're not interested in our deficiencies. We're interested in our identity. We're interested in building our identity and our ego. We're not interested in what we're not good at.

Indra Rinzler:
And I like to say if you're 20, and I say to you, if somebody says you need to open your heart, you're going to say, no, I don't. But if you're 50, you're going to say, you're the third person that told me that this week. Tell me more. So I like to think of it as it's a chart. The reason you haven't heard of it is that nobody does it, but it has an incredible brilliance to it that isn't mine if I have any skill. It's just that I was able to ride this bronco and be open to the teaching, what it had to teach me because it had much more depth than there was more. So much depth implied in it that I didn't understand initially.

Indra Rinzler:
So it's the chart of your empty houses and you deficiencies. And let me take you around the wheel. I suppose you want me to do that, I should do that. So the first house is. Is discovering who you really are. Okay. And I'm gonna say that these 12 awarenesses are the subjects of. That the teachers teach.

Indra Rinzler:
These are the 12 subjects that teachers teach. And it isn't to say that these are the only subjects, 12 subjects to teach, teachers teach. But the reality of is that if you sit in a class in India and if you sit in Satsang anywhere in the world, and I don't know, probably even maybe business prepping, that's kind of a high energy thing, they're going to come to these same 12 subjects. Okay?So the first one is. The first house is discovering who you really are. And so the people that have a planet there, they have an ability to discover who they are and identify with themselves. The people that don't have a planet there have a difficulty with discovering who they are.

Indra Rinzler:
They need to learn they're not so sure about themselves. Because they don't have a planet there. And once they, they can develop that, that energy at 50 we can of course earlier too, but really it isn't until 50 that we really start working on these blind spots. And they can continue to be difficult, but they also become more easier as we understand that. I need to know who I am. At 35 it doesn't matter who I am, but at 50 then I need to know who I am even if I don't have the ability.

Indra Rinzler:
The second house is duality. And so if you have a planet there, then you can live in gray, that you can see all aspects of duality. And if you don't, then you become very black and white and limited in your thinking. You become judgmental because it either is or it isn't. Come on, it either is or it isn't. And the gray says no, it's in between. And I use the examples of that. You can love somebody but not like what they do. That's gray. You can be hungry, but not meal hungry. You can be tired but not sleepy tired. That's gray. And so when your life is gray, you have a planet there. If you don't have a planet there, then you tend to think in black and white.

Indra Rinzler:
The third one is mind. That is when we have confidence and we have the ability to let go the stories of the mind. And if we don't have a planet there, then we have difficulty letting go of the stories of the mind.

Indra Rinzler:
The fourth house is heart, which is home. Home is not only where we live, but it's a groundedness in our own being. And when we're grounded in our being then we can open our heart. And so people that have a planet there tend to be more open hearted. They can be vulnerable and self and have self compassion. The people that don't have a planet there tend to be be very loving, which is the tenth. But that vulnerability and that open heartedness is more difficult. Fourth house.

Indra Rinzler:
The fifth house is God. God starts as giving our power away to a man on the throne in a very eternalistic view of churchianity. And then it becomes the realization that there's a cosmic intelligence. And when we understand there's a cosmic intelligence, then we can trust and accept what is. So when we have a planet there, then we can trust and accept what is. If we don't have a planet there, then trusting and accepting what is is difficult.

Indra Rinzler:
The sixth house is practice. Practice starts as staring at a candle or doing yoga or meditation. It becomes living 247 in undisturbed consciousness that on the mat and off the mat is the same. It's practice. It's the only house that has an uphill. This is the physical plane difficulties. And the physical plane difficulties. We talked about this, this is implicit in what we were talking about, is that the practice is to get on the mat and off the mat the same. To be a unity in our life. That it's not. That's just us us. It's not weekend us. It's not parents us. It's not friends out on the town us. It's just one us. And it's just. It's all the same.

Indra Rinzler:
So seventh house is seeing through conditioning. People that don't have a planet in seven have trouble seeing through conditioning. People that have a planet have no trouble with it. But people who don't have a planet have a real problem with like, not knowing your identity. But this is believing. What other people think is that they can't see the difference between their own thinking and other people's thinking. And so it's the 40 years, 40 year old. And I never wanted to be a doctor, but here I am now, 18 years a doctor. That's the seeing through conditioning gene. That's the empty seventh house.

Indra Rinzler:
The eighth house is no separation. And so the transformation is being able to realize that there is no separation. I mean, there is feeling separation, but there actually is no separation. And the people that don't have a planet in a tend to feel lonely. They tend to feel not connected. They need assurances, they need to feel more. They need to find a way to feel more. They feel separation generally. And it's a little bit of an either habit or you don't. But you can, of course, learn to. You can learn it. It's not, give me five minutes. It's difficult.

Indra Rinzler:
The ninth is emptiness. Emptiness is the same as stillness, but it's not no noise, it's no story. It's the ability. Everybody feels emptiness in nature. But if you don't have a planet there, by the time you get back to the car, you're already thinking about what to get at the grocery, grocery store and make for dinner. And so the emptiness is a stillness in the body. It doesn't hold any stories, it doesn't hold any energies.

Indra Rinzler:
Okay, the tenth house is love. Love begins as loving our team or loving our doll or loving our sweatshirt. When we're little kids in 20s and 30s, love is mostly about having our needs satisfied. Because if you don't give me what I want, then I don't love you. This is conditioned love.

Indra Rinzler:
The 11th is realization, the ability. This is the accepting, trusting and accepting what is. This is the big trusting and accepting what is. The reality is that the tree will mature and the fruit will land on the ground. And if I just get there, I just follow my nose and I will get there and I can pick up the fruit. And so the realization is that I'm not the doer, that it's happening through me. I like to say that when the readings were from me, they weren't as good as when they were through me. And so that's the realization is that I'm not really in charge of a damn thing.

Indra Rinzler:
And 12 is transcendence and impermanence. Transcendence is immediate change. Impermanence is that everything changes. People that don't have a planet in 12 don't do well with change. The changes in their life. The people that have a planet in 12 are okay. It's not that they are happy when people die, but they're understanding. They understand that that change is part of life.

Indra Rinzler:
And I find a tremendous freedom in this because I don't have to be responsible. You ask about the world problems. Is that because of impermanence is that I don't really feel the need to be in charge of that. I need to be in charge of my own self and my own energy and my own thoughts. Thoughts and actions. But I don't really need to be in charge of anything else. And I just go with the flow of it because I see truth in all of it.

Jennifer Norman:
Yes. Yeah. I have so many questions. Thank you so much.

Indra Rinzler:
Sorry if that's long winded, but that's...

Jennifer Norman:
It was wonderful. For those that aren't familiar with it and it shows the, I guess the, the fullness of all of the thinking that goes into what that totality is. I guess that's why it's called the Wheel of Totality. One question would be that like when you were first starting to talk about the numbers and what they are associated with, I couldn't help but think, oh, we're kind of going a little bit along the lines of the chakra system. But then I was like, no, no, we're not. We were to start at the base and the root and then we get to heart, which is home and, you know, not the four. But then I was thinking, well, it kind of deviates from that and it's not exactly the same, but does it relate to Enneagram, do you think? As far as I know, that there's nine in Enneagram, but from a numerology perspective, are the ones similar to ones, twos similar to twos, or are they not necessarily related in that way?

Indra Rinzler:
Well, it isn't that way at all. There isn't much Enneagram in it. But I do want to say the heart chakra, that there is a system in ancient astrology of the houses from 1 to 12 being the head to the toe, so. Or the toe to the head.

Jennifer Norman:
Yeah.

Indra Rinzler:
So there would be some of that you could see in it. But the interesting thing with the Enneagram is it doesn't line up. It's not that an empty. Empty second house means. Means a particular type, but there are some patterns. There are some patterns. For example, nines tend to have an empty 4 and 10. And it's nothing that I would have ever thought on my own, but I've found through trial and error that there are a lot of nines that have an empty 4 and 10.

Indra Rinzler:
And while heart and love, it just seems like a nine. But the thing is, it's a story of a nine. It's the love and the heart. While the loves, while the nines give us the highest expression of love, it's that you've got to earn that. That it's a hope and a prayer. Before you wake up into as a nine, you, whoever is nine, before you wake up into that as your reality, you've got to go through the whole. I don't know who I am.

Indra Rinzler:
I've got to grab onto something that's real and bring the love. So they have an empty 4 in 10. They have to really learn to open their heart and really learn to love, because they don't have it, but they have the story of it, but not it. And so there are. I find threes or one in. Or one in seven empty, and they don't really know who they are. So I find a few of these patterns. There are occasionally, I mean, often there's something that I might say, and I'm not being accurate in this, but I'm just using an example that I might have a four and that they have an empty, a fourth house.

Indra Rinzler:
I'm not saying four and Fourth house. I'm just saying that so they don't. They have trouble opening their heart. And I might say, oh, well, that's 4ish. I'm not saying it's 4ish, but I'm saying using that as an example, so there might be a particular situation with a particular client where they're doubting of themselves as a six might come up in is really pronounced. And their inability to live in gray and they're needing black and white and so it would be pronounced. But having the second house empty wouldn't preclude. Now that's a six.

Indra Rinzler:
It wouldn't be a marker for it, but it would be an indication. It's definitely part of the DNA of that, of that particular client or a particular type in general. Is that clear?

Jennifer Norman:
Sure, yes. My next question is how the Wheel of Totality may or may not align with the astrological calendar. So given that there are 12 months. So it does not.

Indra Rinzler:
Okay, no, no. And I don't know if I said this at the beginning. Maybe I did say it, but I want to say it again if I didn't is that this isn't astrology. This is like astrology. We use the 12 houses. But this is way before astrology. This is. Astrology is very dense.

Indra Rinzler:
This is before we get into any structure or anything. This is much, much more galactic, much more ethereal. That's the way I understand it. Is that clear?

Jennifer Norman:
It is only the reason why is when you said you've got a planet in. And so that made me think about astrology. But maybe you can say a little bit more about what when you say what if you have a planet in. Or if you don't have a planet in.

Indra Rinzler:
Okay. So, yeah, thank you for that. It's pretty simple. So the thing is, is that the understanding of totality is broken up into 12 places, 12 houses or 12 sections. And so the correlation is that they are all. Well, I like to say, you might like. This is. I like to say that there are.

Indra Rinzler:
There's ignorance built into the system. That there are nine planets. I use nine planets, but they're 12 houses. So there's ignorance built into the system. We can't possibly have a planet in all the houses. We don't use the outer planets. I don't use the outer planets. And I thought about this a lot.

Indra Rinzler:
I don't use the outer planets and I don't use the asteroids, but I do use the, the nodes which we use in Vedic astrology. And so there's ignorance built into the system. And so the idea here is, is that when you have a planet in a house, then you have a clue to that native ability to that intuition that's part of that house. It's part of your...the equipment you picked up on the hike of life. You gotta planet in two, so you got a backpack. If you don't have a planet in two, you don't have a backpack. I'm not saying I don't know that twos line up with backpack other than security.

Indra Rinzler:
So they kind of do. But that's what you've been given. And it's neither good nor bad. It's just a flavor. It's just what you've got.

Jennifer Norman:
So it's not dependent on when your birthday is. How would you then know if you've got a planet in one?

Indra Rinzler:
It's all based on your birthday. It's overlay. I'm overlaying your natal chart onto the Wheel of Totality. I'm sorry, I didn't say that. Overlaying the natal chart onto the Wheel of Totality in order to see where you natally have planets, if you have planets there, whether you have a lot of planets or whether you have one planet or whether that one planet is not very happy and is very afflicted, it doesn't seem to matter that. Because even if it's one afflicted planet, it's still going to accentuate your ability of having energy in that awareness that if you don't have any planets there, it's much dense.

Jennifer Norman:
So it doesn't matter which planet. It doesn't matter if it's Mars or Jupiter. It's just a planet.

Indra Rinzler:
It doesn't matter. I've gotten into it a little bit so that you, you might. I might be able to tell a story that look how strong that, you know, like you've got a very happy Mars there and look how strong you are at that scale. But I don't normally go into which one. I didn't do that. And when I've done that, I haven't, it doesn't seem to really matter. The thing is, it's a skill.

Indra Rinzler:
Is it your best skill? No. And I can tell people, young person, youngish person, 20s and early 30s. And, and you know, I can say, well, you've got a planet and opening your Heart, but you're not really. You've got a ways to go there. Still kind of protective of your heart and you don't really understand it yet, but you do have that ability. So having a planet there, it's not a. It's not all or nothing. You have that ability.

Indra Rinzler:
But that doesn't mean that you've particularly come into some of these abilities a full, full flower early, even as an adult, early in adulthood.

Jennifer Norman:
One question, because I speak to a highly diverse audience in terms of not only abilities but also in neurodiversity. And so for those who may either be on the spectrum or have some semblance of neurodiversity, how do you think. And it seems like this is happening more and more these days, autism and the like. How would you interpret somebody's personality that might be neurodiverse?

Indra Rinzler:
I don't really have any skill that way. And I would say that even the baby that never breathes fulfills karma. And so it could be a, karmically it could be a "I want it, I don't want it". Which is a bit of a four story. I want it, I don't want it. So they don't really totally enter into the life and it may be that they were arrogant and really bossy and now they don't have any control over anything and that it.

Indra Rinzler:
I don't have a need to understand it. I don't want to need to limit it. I think that it's a world made up of a lot of different styles.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you for that. Thank you for that. And also. So it sounds like you do believe in a reincarnation or the idea of karmic energy.

Indra Rinzler:
Well, yeah, it's the safe bet.

Jennifer Norman:
Say more about that.

Indra Rinzler:
Well, I mean, I mean I can't say that it for sure happens but I mean it does seem like that is the logical conclusion. I mean that's what I feel. But that makes the most sense of anything. But. But I can't say that I haven't experienced the past lives in a way. You know, I don't haven't had those kind of experiences say. Oh yeah, right. Yeah, I know.

Indra Rinzler:
I don't know. I mean the thing is that I don't really even the things I have experienced, I'm not really that don't want to commit to that either. You know, it is. It was then, but that doesn't mean it will be next time. So sevens like options. We like options.

Jennifer Norman:
With all of this, life remains still a mystery.

Indra Rinzler:
Yeah. And that's okay. Life is still a mystery. It's less a mystery than it was, that's for sure.

Jennifer Norman:
Indra I find all of this so intriguing and I want everybody to know that Indra does do a variety of readings. He offers a variety of services including full life readings, location astrology reading, which we didn't get into in this podcast. But where you live matters, where you move to matters, Enneagram readings, Wheel of Totality readings, Relationship, Family, Childhood readings and so many more. And to thank the listeners of The Human Beauty Movement Podcast, Indra is offering some specials for you. Would you like to share what those are Indra sure.

Indra Rinzler:
Sure. So there's two offers I'll give you. I'll send you your Vedic Astrology chart and I will make a note. It's not a reading. I will make a few notes on it. Usually say something, get you started, probably confuse you, but my idea is not to confuse you. But anyways, you need to email me indrarinzler@gmail.com all one word IndraRinzler. Give me your birth date, time and place.

Indra Rinzler:
And the second offer is I will send you a free Enneagram test. It's about five or 10 minutes. You read some paragraphs and answer some questions. Pretty simple for most people. For many people it will give you your Enneagram number. For some it will start. It will get rid of some that aren't and will get you started. That's for free.

Indra Rinzler:
You write me at indrarinzler@gmail.com and I'll send you the test. Those are the two offers.

Jennifer Norman:
Thank you so much for that generous offer, those generous offers, Indra. So yes, email Indra at indrarinzler@gmail.com, mention The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. You will get your Vedic chart and some special notes direct from Indra. Also you can go onto his website which is indrarinzler.com and check out all of the other types of full readings that he offers and he can be even of more service to you. Indra thank you so much for sharing all of this with us today. It was really fascinating. I enjoyed this conversation thoroughly. Thank you so much for being my guest today.

Indra Rinzler:
Oh thank you. My pleasure. Much love to you.

Jennifer Norman:
Much love. Thank you for listening to The Human Beauty Movement Podcast. Be sure to follow, follow rate and review us wherever you stream podcasts The Human Beauty Movement is a community based platform that cultivates the beauty of humankind. Check out our workshops, find us on social media, and share our inspiration with all the beautiful humans in your life. Learn more at thehumanbeautymovement.com. Thank you so much for being a beautiful human.